Woman who strangled her newborn daughter to death... spared jail.

Outlaw Pete

I find this case incredulous... to say the bloody least and not for the first time The Guardian have chosen to not report on a story which the majority of the mainstream media have done, including The Sun, The Express, The Mirror, Sky News, Daily Mail, the BBC and even The Metro (etc etc etc).

Anyway, here's a synopsis of the case (rest of the article here):

Mum who strangled newborn baby to death with knickers after giving birth WALKS FREE

Lithuanian Gintare Suminaite, 30, throttled the baby girl, the product of a secret affair, at the bedsit she shared with her boyfriend.

Suminaite denied murder, but admitted infantcide claiming she had become "mentally disturbed" by the ordeal of giving birth.




The Old Bailey heard how she wrapped her hands around the child's throat and squeezed "as hard as I could" before holding her under the shower in a bid to drown her.

Suminaite then cut the umbilical cord with a razor blade before tying her underwear around the infant's neck and placing her in a baby bath on 5 April last year.

Prosecutor Ed Brown QC told how Suminaite kept her pregnancy hidden from her partner, who she has another child with. He had no idea she was expecting until she confessed she had "done something bad" after falling pregnant during an affair with fellow Lithuanian Arturas Vencius, 32.

But the relationship broke down and Suminaite began an affair with Mr Arturas in around February or March 2015. He knew he was the father of the child when Suminaite fell pregnant and hoped she would travel back to Lithuania with her.

But she made no registration of her pregnancy, attended no ante-natal classes and hid it from her partner. Her partner had been working a night shift and awoke at around 2.40pm to hear the shower on.

Suminaite eventually allowed him into the bathroom, where he found her naked and covered in blood next to a baby bath.

"All the evidence shows that the child had been dead for some little time.." Suminaite continued to lose blood throughout the evening, but refused to see a doctor until she turned yellow and her partner insisted she had to go to hospital.

She then confessed she had been pregnant with Mr Vencius' child. An ambulance was called at 5.42am on 6 April last year and Suminaite was rushed to hospital, but it was not until 9am that medics returned to the flat, where they found the child's lifeless body in the baby bath under a blanket and wet towels.

Suminaite told police she "most likely" intended to kill her baby, but said she did not know why. She pleaded guilty to a charge of infanticide on 21 December last year.

Sentencing, Mr Justice Nicol said: “The unlawful homicide of anyone is a tragedy, especially in the case when the victim is so young, even more so that is the case when the child dies at the hands of her mother.

“However, your own circumstances were tragic in themselves and that is reflected in the nature of the offence to which you have pleaded guilty.

“You were overwhelmed by the stress of your situation and in a state of partial denial during the pregnancy.

“At the time of giving birth your were in a state of extreme anxiety and panic amounting to a temporary impairment of the balance of your mind.”

"The courts recognise in circumstances such as this, where there is no underlying psychiatric illness, where there is a low risk of re-offending or causing harm, that what might otherwise be thought of as lenient is the appropriate course, namely a non-custodial sentence."

The court heard the father of her child has broken off contact with her.

The reason I find this case so incredulous is not because the defense had the gall to claim the woman had a temporary imbalance of her mind (that's their job) but because their nonsense argument was accepted by the court despite all evidence pointing to the contrary.

This woman got pregnant as a result of an affair, chose to keep the pregnancy secret from not just her boyfriend but also from those she worked with, and didn't even register the pregnancy. By her own admission she had no mental health issues throughout the pregnancy either and when her boyfriend found her she immediately said she'd done something bad and was going to jail, so quite clearly someone who was very much aware of the gravity of what she had done.

So what's the conclusion that she had a "temporary impairment of the balance of her mind" based on exactly then, as far from this woman's actions being indicative of her suffering mental impairment as a result of unexpectedly going into labour, on the contrary, her actions are very much consistent with how she had been behaving on and off for many many months. Otherwise she / they (if we include the father of this baby) would have registered this pregnancy.

No doubt if this happened in Ireland it would be held up as an example of why we need "safe legal abortion" available to women here, to prevent such things happening again, but yet this happened in a country where they have such "health care" on tap.

This woman choked her daughter to death because the child was a the result of an affair and has effectively got away with it. Had she not had difficulties herself with blood loss then I doubt we would ever have known that this baby had even existed as she didn't want to go to the hospital. 'Temporary impairment of the mind' my foot.

Victor

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

'Temporary impairment of the mind' my foot.

Actually, post-natal depression is extremely common, and infanticide is well enough known to be recognised as such, with a much reduced sentence compared to murder.

If you think it's a messed up situation, imagine how messed up a mother has to be to do it.

Pawwed Rig

Victor wrote: »

If you think it's a messed up situation, imagine how messed up a mother has to be to do it.

You could say that about any crime

Kermit.de.frog

Victor wrote: »

Actually, post-natal depression is extremely common

Is that the politically correct way to call murder of a baby?

Victor

Just in case anyone is suffering from PND, there is support available - talk to your GP, public health nurse or a counsellor: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/publications/Children/Postnatal_Depression_A_Guide_for_Mothers,_Family_and_Friends.pdf

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is that the politically correct way to call murder of a baby?

No. Many people suffer from PND - the scale can vary hugely. My sister found with her first baby that she would only get dressed at 4pm, whereas things radically improved when she went back to work part-time.

https://www.ucc.ie/en/media/academic/appliedsocialstudies/TeresaCronin.pdf

The results from this study indicate that the prevalence of women in Ireland and internationally that suffer from PND stands at 19.7% and 17.3% respectively. The most recently published studies places the prevalence of PND between 11.5%-20.7% in Ireland. International researches have reported similar finding with the median prevalence rate of PND found in the 27 studies found to be 14.6%.

exaisle

It seems to me that regardless of what the judge said, she'll serve her sentence every day for the rest of her life...

Kermit.de.frog

Victor wrote: »

Just in case anyone is suffering from PND, there is support available - talk to your GP, public health nurse or a counsellor: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/publications/Children/Postnatal_Depression_A_Guide_for_Mothers,_Family_and_Friends.pdf

No. Many people suffer from PND - the scale can vary hugely. My sister found with her first baby that she would only get dressed at 4pm, whereas things radically improved when she went back to work part-time.

https://www.ucc.ie/en/media/academic/appliedsocialstudies/TeresaCronin.pdf

I personally think your mind is warped. Murder is murder. A baby ffs. Mental Illness or common illness does not cover this. I'm sick and tired of excuses for every unforgivable act going. Depression? Give us a break. Seriously.

Jawgap

Got away with it??

Maybe she didn't go to prison but I'd imagine the emotional and psychological turmoil she'll likely go through for the rest of her life will be punishment enough?

skankkuvhima

exaisle wrote: »

It seems to me that regardless of what the judge said, she'll serve her sentence every day for the rest of her life...

Jawgap wrote: »

Got away with it??

Maybe she didn't go to prison but I'd imagine the emotional and psychological turmoil she'll likely go through for the rest of her life will be punishment enough?

Is this how we do punishment now? By the amount of perceived guilt people feel? Anyway, why do you think she feels any guilt? Because she says so to get off a prison sentence?

Of course she got away with it ffs

skankkuvhima

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I personally think your mind is warped. Murder is murder. A baby ffs. Mental Illness or common illness does not cover this. I'm sick and tired of excuses for every unforgivable act going. Depression? Give us a break. Seriously.

The excuses only work for one gender. If it was the other gender there would be no excuses or understanding I can assure you.

Jawgap

skankkuvhima wrote: »

Is this how we do punishment now? By the amount of perceived guilt people feel?

No, we do it by putting all the facts before a court, along with the required expert opinion......those facts are then tested by advocates for different viewpoints.

A dispassionate conclusion, generally by a panel of fellow citizens, is reached and a punishment commensurate with the crime is determined and applied.

Tabloids, internet discussion boards etc have, thankfully, no role in the process - but they are a good outlet for people who don't understand the issues.

skankkuvhima

Jawgap wrote: »

No, we do it by putting all the facts before a court, along with the required expert opinion......those facts are then tested by advocates for different viewpoints.

A dispassionate conclusion, generally by a panel of fellow citizens, is reached and a punishment commensurate with the crime is determined and applied.

Tabloids, internet discussion boards etc have, thankfully, no role in the process - but they are a good outlet for people who don't understand the issues

Grand, whatever, if the smiley face makes you feel better. A baby is dead at the end of the day but at least you get your smug point across.

Jawgap

skankkuvhima wrote: »

The excuses only work for one gender. If it was the other gender there would be no excuses or understanding I can assure you.

No, if it was the father it would be a different defence because the Infanticide Act allows only for a diminished capacity defence linked to childbirth.

The father, if he committed such a heinous act, would have to run a straight diminished capacity defence rather than anything linked to pregnancy.

The law simply recognises that giving birth can be a traumatic experience and whatever it might do to the body, it can also severely impact the mind to the point where a person's normal perspective dissolves.

Jawgap

skankkuvhima wrote: »

Grand, whatever, if the smiley face makes you feel better. A baby is dead at the end of the day but at least you get your smug point across.

The point being there's a reason these things are best dealt with by a court and is dispassionate a way as possible.

Do you have a better way?

EDIT: and you're right, the use of the smiley was inappropriate and I've removed it.

Galwayguy35

I would have thought someone who didn't know what they were doing would have been going around the place frantically looking for help, not squeezing a babies neck and drowning her in a shower.

An innocent life was taken and no punishment for doing it.

Jawgap

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I would have thought someone who didn't know what they were doing would have been going around the place frantically looking for help, not squeezing a babies neck and drowning her in a shower.

An innocent life was taken and no punishment for doing it.

If someone is delusional their behaviour doesn't tend towards objective rationality.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Why is this news to you?

Take a look across the punishments for serious crimes. Women always do less, and do their time in better facilties.

Take Mountjoy and the Dochas for eg. Mountjoy cram cells and the prisoners still slop out.

In the Dochas centre each woman is given a key to her cell/room. Can you imagine that? being in prison and having a key to your cell.

Dochas cells also have en suite bathrooms.

In the Joy, they shower together. This where many men have their first gay experience.

infogiver

OP is it that you don't "believe " in mental illness at all, or, despite you not being a psychiatric health professional and not having access to all the evidence in this case, you've bizarrely decided that those who ARE psychiatric health professionals and HAVE seen all the evidence are somehow wrong and you are right?!?
You do know that's utterly ludicrous?

infogiver

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I would have thought someone who didn't know what they were doing would have been going around the place frantically looking for help, not squeezing a babies neck and drowning her in a shower.

An innocent life was taken and no punishment for doing it.

"you would have thought "
Is that your opinion as a mental health professional Galwayguy or did you just pull it out of your a***

tritium

To be honest i find this story and this thread disturbing. Both the rush to make the perpetrator of this crime into the victim and also the rush to firget the real victim.

Its not that i dont accept that mental illness is a factor in crime, actually id happily accept its a factor quite often. However theres a part of me that worries at the speed with which that card is played in certain types of cases. Should there be some sympathy? Of course. Should there also be some responsibility?.....

Galwayguy35

infogiver wrote: »

"you would have thought "
Is that your opinion as a mental health professional Galwayguy or did you just pull it out of your a***

Are you this rude to people in real life as well?

infogiver

tritium wrote: »

To be honest i find this story and this thread disturbing. Both the rush to make the perpetrator of this crime into the victim and also the rush to firget the real victim.

Its not that i dont accept that mental illness is a factor in crime, actually id happily accept its a factor quite often. However theres a part of me that worries at the speed with which that card is played in certain types of cases. Should there be some sympathy? Of course. Should there also be some responsibility?.....

From your indepth experience of this particular case, what brings you to the conclusion that a verdict was reached too hastily?

Jawgap

tritium wrote: »

To be honest i find this story and this thread disturbing. Both the rush to make the perpetrator of this crime into the victim and also the rush to firget the real victim.

Its not that i dont accept that mental illness is a factor in crime, actually id happily accept its a factor quite often. However theres a part of me that worries at the speed with which that card is played in certain types of cases. Should there be some sympathy? Of course. Should there also be some responsibility?.....

No one is saying the perpetrator is a victim, as far as I can see.

They are saying these are singular circumstances and that, in this case, the punishment fits the crime. If there is a theme on this thread it seems to be the idea that the woman got away with it because of some hokey defence that wouldn't be available to a man.

.....and I guarantee you there was no rush. For a start if someone is going to run a defence they have to admit the offence - in other words admit responsibility for the actions that led to the outcome they are on trial for. The offence also allows for the prosecution of mothers whose children die due to a failure to act on their part.

That makes the prosecution's job that bit easier because now the burden of proof shifts to the defence and they have to prove to the satisfaction of the jury (and the judge) all elements of the defence they are running. It's not just simply a case of saying "she'd just given birth ergo she wasn't responsible for her actions."

They have to prove that "the balance of her mind was disturbed by reason of her not having fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child."

infogiver

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Are you this rude to people in real life as well?

Well, either your giving a professional opinion on this particular case, or your just making up nonsense as your going along. Which is it? (better?)

Victor

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Take Mountjoy ... the prisoners still slop out.

A bit off topic, but I understand this has ended.

Little CuChulainn

Was mental illness not ruled out? Would this not include depression and PND?

Pawwed Rig

exaisle wrote: »

It seems to me that regardless of what the judge said, she'll serve her sentence every day for the rest of her life...

You could say that about any crime

Graces7

In the UK, at least until recently and probably now, concealing a pregnancy is in itself an offence in law.

Abortion also is freely available there.

As is support and help in both circumstances.

Whatever her state at the time of the birth?

She had decided to continue with the pregnancy. What was her intention then?

Ellie2008

People keep citing post-natal depression, I'm assuming the court found the woman suffered from post-partum psychosis, a much more serious illness which is much more unusual than post-natal depression.
Women are know to have delusions that the baby is the devil, voices order them to flush the baby down the toilet that type of thing...

I feel people need to accept that it is possible to lose your sanity. If you didn't have the mental capacity to commit the crime you shouldn't IMO be jailed for it.
I understand that a baby is dead, punishing a mother who acted under delusions achieves nothing & would be morally wrong IMO.

mansize

If only we had Baying mob justice... oh wait, that's Trump's America...

thee glitz

Graces7 wrote: »

In the UK, at least until recently and probably now, concealing a pregnancy is in itself an offence in law.

Abortion also is freely available there.

As is support and help in both circumstances.

Whatever her state at the time of the birth?

She had decided to continue with the pregnancy. What was her intention then?

Maybe she is mental and needs treatment from an appropriate residential care provider to stop this behaviour.

eurokev

Jesus, that's f***ing tragic. I find it extremely upsetting that the baby didn't get the chance in life, and that the mother reached such a mental state to do this.

How can you hide a pregnancy though? It's fairly obvious that someone is pregnant

mud

eurokev wrote: »

Jesus, that's f***ing tragic. I find it extremely upsetting that the baby didn't get the chance in life, and that the mother reached such a mental state to do this.

How can you hide a pregnancy though? It's fairly obvious that someone is pregnant

It is tragic. So tragic.

Anecdotally, I know someone who did manage to conceal her unplanned pregnancy from everyone bar her healthcare providers. She was in a terrible state mentally and was almost definitely delusional regarding her situation.

Thankfully she had terrific support when the truth in the form of a baby girl became apparent. She received wonderful treatment and her family rallied around her. I feel the woman in the OP's situation may not have had that support.

RIP to the baby and condolences to anyone who is affected by this tragedy.

The article is too scant on detail about her condition and too focussed on the salacious, the affair, how the child died, to make any informed comment based on it. For example it's scant on the findings as to her mental condition at the time if the incident, which of course is the crux of diminished responsibility defences.

volchitsa

Graces7 wrote: »

In the UK, at least until recently and probably now, concealing a pregnancy is in itself an offence in law.

Abortion also is freely available there.

As is support and help in both circumstances.

Whatever her state at the time of the birth?

She had decided to continue with the pregnancy. What was her intention then?

All of those points are why it seems likely that she was not in a normal state of mind and was quite probably suffering from delusions.

BTW, the implication by the OP and a couple of posters here that there is a gender difference where women get the benefit of a doubt whereas men get punished is nonsense : the man who killed his parents with an axe in Donegal a couple of years ago "got off scot free". By which I mean that he was found not to be responsible for his acts and got no prison sentence.

eurokev

Deleted User wrote:

The article is too scant on detail about her condition and too focussed on the salacious, the affair, how the child died, to make any informed comment based on it. For example it's scant on the findings as to her mental condition at the time if the incident, which of course is the crux of diminished responsibility defences.

Yeah waste of time getting the real story from one of the rags. Majority of their focus was on the affair and talking coldy about how the baby was killed, pure sesnseationalism.

The woman is about twice the size now that she was in older photos. She looks an absolute mess. Living with consequences every minute, if the photos are telling us anything

volchitsa

volchitsa wrote: »

All of those points are why it seems likely that she was not in a normal state of mind and was quite probably suffering from delusions.

BTW, the implication by the OP and a couple of posters here that there is a gender difference where women get the benefit of a doubt whereas men get punished is nonsense : the man who killed his parents with an axe in Donegal a couple of years ago "got off scot free". By which I mean that he was found not to be responsible for his acts and got no prison sentence.

For some reason it reminds me of the man who strangled his wife in his sleep. Can you imagine
He walked free anyway

FTA69

skankkuvhima wrote: »

The excuses only work for one gender. If it was the other gender there would be no excuses or understanding I can assure you.

Kind of hard to argue for post natal depression for a man.

Graces7

volchitsa wrote: »

All of those points are why it seems likely that she was not in a normal state of mind and was quite probably suffering from delusions.

BTW, the implication by the OP and a couple of posters here that there is a gender difference where women get the benefit of a doubt whereas men get punished is nonsense : the man who killed his parents with an axe in Donegal a couple of years ago "got off scot free". By which I mean that he was found not to be responsible for his acts and got no prison sentence.

Depends on your interpretation. To me it smacks of quite wilful and knowing behaviour . There is a bit missing somewhere in this story too. Does not add up.

Lady is a tramp

I've been there.

I have Complex PTSD. Complex as opposed to regular, because the trauma of being sexually abused between the ages of 3 and 12 only really resurfaced fully when I was in labour with my child.

It was a short but traumatic labour. Both for him and for me. For him, physically - I wasn't breathing so his heart rate was dropping significantly. For me, mentally - I was suicidal throughout the labour and wanted to jump out the 2nd floor window of Holles St because of trauma that went way beyond the pain of labour.

I went from being grand that morning to suicidal that evening. To being in a completely altered state of mind. Where I was capable of anything. Even - in that moment - killing myself and my baby.

And my memories of that night are very different to my sons dads memories. That's scary too.

Its a "happy ending" in that, three years later, my son and I are both still alive. Most of that time I've spent as a psychiatric inpatient. My relationship with his dad is long over.

Its a better outcome than the alternative. And I can't and won't judge that woman. You never know what another persons been through.

volchitsa

Graces7 wrote: »

Depends on your interpretation. To me it smacks of quite wilful and knowing behaviour . There is a bit missing somewhere in this story too. Does not add up.

How could it be "willful and knowing" to refuse to go to hospital until she was yellow from loss of blood?

As for the fact that we don't know the whole story, well that's been pointed out, it's a very biased version, but not biased towards her. So since the jury found her not guilty, it seems likely that what's missing is much of the actual evidence that explains that verdict, and which the newspaper article didn't tell us.

volchitsa

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

I've been there.

Not sure what to say to that except I'm really, really sorry to hear it, and I'm glad you've sort of got through it, Lady. I hope things continue to improve and that you can put your life back together.

neonsofa

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

I've been there.

I have Complex PTSD. Complex as opposed to regular, because the trauma of being sexually abused between the ages of 3 and 12 only really resurfaced fully when I was in labour with my child.

It was a short but traumatic labour. Both for him and for me. For him, physically - I wasn't breathing so his heart rate was dropping significantly. For me, mentally - I was suicidal throughout the labour and wanted to jump out the 2nd floor window of Holles St because of trauma that went way beyond the pain of labour.

I went from being grand that morning to suicidal that evening. To being in a completely altered state of mind. Where I was capable of anything. Even - in that moment - killing myself and my baby.

And my memories of that night are very different to my sons dads memories. That's scary too.

Its a "happy ending" in that, three years later, my son and I are both still alive. Most of that time I've spent as a psychiatric inpatient. My relationship with his dad is long over.

Its a better outcome than the alternative. And I can't and won't judge that woman. You never know what another persons been through.

I wish you all the best.

It is also important to note that she went through childbirth alone, no painkillers, no support from midwives etc. I know that I was in a lot of mental anguish over two days of labour and went through multiple types of pain relief in that time, needed the health care professionals to motivate me and assure me things were ok etc. I can't imagine doing all that alone. I understand it was her decision not to go to hospital but it must have had an affect on her mind in that moment. Whether that excuses what she did is a different story but I imagine we just don't know all the facts.

learn_more

These seductive pics of that Lithuanian proves that there wasnt a thing wrong with her and what we have here is a clear cut case of cold blooded murder.

Rubberchikken

i'm only glad that trial by internet isn't a 'real' thing or anyone who ever did anything out of line would be strung up without a chance to plead their case.
the court listens in a calm way and applies the law as fit.

Thumpette

I'm going to absolutely judge her. Firstly, I don't care how traumatic her birth was- as someone who has experienced the pinnacle of traumatic birth (the stillbirth of my son at 41 weeks) I get the ptsd and the anxiety and depression that can follow. Surely all people who commit horrendous murder of someone, particularly a family member is in some way unbalanced- that doesn't make it ok.

Mainly though the fact that she concealed the whole pregnancy shows that in a premeditated way she never intended to keep this child. She didn't seek out medical support in case the pregnancy or labour went wrong (perhaps she was hoping it would as an 'out'). This wasn't a decision made in the midst of the pains of labour or in the haze of pnd- this decision, though maybe not the specifics- was set in motion the minute her pregnancy threatened to reveal her affair.

She could have left the baby somewhere safe to be cared for, but instead she brutally and violently choked and drowned the life out of her. She abandoned her body without dignity.

That little girl is the real victim here- murdered by the one person who should have loved her most, and now not even valued enough for that crime to be properly punished.

Rip little one.

Jawgap

Graces7 wrote: »

Depends on your interpretation. To me it smacks of quite wilful and knowing behaviour . There is a bit missing somewhere in this story too. Does not add up.

Yes, because the Daily Express is interested in fully describing the nuances of her mental state, the testimony given and the examination of it.

The fact the case was transferred to the Old Bailey kind of gives an idea of how seriously it was treated and scrutinised if the local Crown Court judges felt it was beyond their capacity to hear and adjudicate on it.

cnocbui

thee glitz wrote: »

Maybe she is mental and needs treatment from an appropriate residential care provider to stop this behaviour.

If it was a psychosis triggered by the hormonal and chemical turmoil of pregnancy and birth, it would be self-correcting as things settle down to normal. No need for that nonsense.

Jawgap

learn_more wrote: »

These seductive pics of that Lithuanian proves that there wasnt a thing wrong with her and what we have here is a clear cut case of cold blooded murder.

"Tabloid uses glamorous photos of callous killer" - colour me shocked.

I wonder why they didn't use this one



.....maybe because such an image doesn't sate the appetite of the baying mob?

infogiver

learn_more wrote: »

These seductive pics of that Lithuanian proves that there wasnt a thing wrong with her and what we have here is a clear cut case of cold blooded murder.

Yes. The judge and jury should just have been shown these pics, taken before the tragedy, and no other evidence entered.
Then they should have thrown her into the lion pit at the zoo. Isn't that right poster?

red ears

skankkuvhima wrote: »

The excuses only work for one gender. If it was the other gender there would be no excuses or understanding I can assure you.

Can you imagine any circumstances where a man gets away with strangling and drowning a human being and claiming he had temporary anxiety or mental illness. I can't. She basically got away with killing a baby she tried to hide from her boyfriend. That child could have been handed up for adoption.