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Atheist godfather to niece for communion and confirmation.

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    #62
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    AryaStark wrote: »
    realdanbreen wrote: »
    But this topic is not about 'many catholics in Ireland' It is about the predicament that the op finds himself in . Does his loathing(his word) of the church not make it impossible for him to attend a catholic sacrament?
    Or maybe his loathing is only a sentiment that he expresses when it's safe to do so.

    I 'loath' the church and everything that it stands for. I hate it and I also hate organised religion. It did not stop me from entering a church though. I think that the majority or religious people are hypocrites and that they do not believe the teachings of the church.
    I am a proud atheist but I do not feel the need to discuss it with people and for example if an old person says something like God bless you I just thank them and smile cause I think it is cute.
    I think that the op should not worry so much and should spoil his goddaughter and buy her a nice present - or give her a nice bit of cash - seems to be all the communion is about


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    #63
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    AryaStark wrote: »
    realdanbreen wrote: »
    But this topic is not about 'many catholics in Ireland' It is about the predicament that the op finds himself in . Does his loathing(his word) of the church not make it impossible for him to attend a catholic sacrament?
    Or maybe his loathing is only a sentiment that he expresses when it's safe to do so.

    I 'loath' the church and everything that it stands for. I hate it and I also hate organised religion. It did not stop me from entering a church though. I think that the majority or religious people are hypocrites and that they do not believe the teachings of the church.
    I am a proud atheist but I do not feel the need to discuss it with people and for example if an old person says something like God bless you I just thank them and smile cause I think it is cute.
    I think that the op should not worry so much and should spoil his goddaughter and buy her a nice present - or give her a nice bit of cash - seems to be all the communion is about
    The majority of catholics are certainty not hypocrites. However the people who don't attend mass regularly except when their children are been baptised or making their communion or confirmation are imo definitely hypocritical.


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    #64
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    Worztron wrote: »
    Yes, I do loathe religion and for good reason. It's nothing but a sham and I have a major problem with my participation in the further brainwashing of my niece. It's not about snubbing my niece -- stop being ridiculous.

    How are you not snubbing your niece if you refuse to do what is asked of you? Once she reaches adulthood you can introduce her to your beliefs all you want. Until then she is a child under her parent's care, and if they ask you to fulfill your responsibilities you say, "I would be honoured, thank you". Find another battle to fight, one that doesn't involve little children.


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    #65
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,414 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    robindch wrote: »
    If, however, you post casual insults towards your fellow posters, you will be banned from the forum.
    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Or maybe his loathing is only a sentiment that he expresses when it's safe to do so.
    For ignoring a direct moderator warning to engage in civil discussion, and after six similar mod interventions in A+A previously, realdanbreen has been banned for one week.

    Continuez, mes amis.


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    #66
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭Worztron


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    How are you not snubbing your niece if you refuse to do what is asked of you? Once she reaches adulthood you can introduce her to your beliefs all you want. Until then she is a child under her parent's care, and if they ask you to fulfill your responsibilities you say, "I would be honoured, thank you". Find another battle to fight, one that doesn't involve little children.

    You just don't get it!

    So I should just forget about integrity and just pretend on the day that I belief all the religious guff? No way!

    When she's an adult she may be too brainwashed to realise that religion is actually all a lie -- like most folk mindlessly do and go along with.

    And stop using a child as a guilt pawn in your small-minded argument.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #67
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭Worztron


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    The majority of catholics are certainty not hypocrites. However the people who don't attend mass regularly except when their children are been baptised or making their communion or confirmation are imo definitely hypocritical.

    Really?

    The majority of catholics in Ireland don't go to church -- hence the continually falling numbers at mass. So yes they are hypocrites in labeling themselves as catholic. I wish they'd be honest about it.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #68
    AryaStark
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭AryaStark


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    The majority of catholics are certainty not hypocrites. However the people who don't attend mass regularly except when their children are been baptised or making their communion or confirmation are imo definitely hypocritical.

    It is my personal believe that they are. I do not think that most catholics live catholic lives and the majority seem to think that it is ok to sin all week and then go to mass and confession and all is ok.

    If you were to read the bible and follow a proper christian/catholic life then you would not survive in the 21st century.

    So much of the bible is crazy and even catholics are now changing it to suit their lives i.e no more purgery / people who commit suicide can now be buried on consecrated ground / you can now eat meat on a Friday / you can go to mass on a Saturday night so you can lie in on a Sunday / You can work on Sunday ... just a small example


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    #69
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭Worztron


    AryaStark wrote: »

    It is my personal believe that they are. I do not think that most catholics live catholic lives and the majority seem to think that it is ok to sin all week and then go to mass and confession and all is ok.

    If you were to read the bible and follow a proper christian/catholic life then you would not survive in the 21st century.

    So much of the bible is crazy and even catholics are now changing it to suit their lives i.e no more purgery / people who commit suicide can now be buried on consecrated ground / you can now eat meat on a Friday / you can go to mass on a Saturday night so you can lie in on a Sunday / You can work on Sunday ... just a small example

    It really highlights what a charade the whole thing is.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #70
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    The majority of catholics are certainty not hypocrites. However the people who don't attend mass regularly except when their children are been baptised or making their communion or confirmation are imo definitely hypocritical.

    Well, you say that, but by your criterion (highlighted in bold) above, then the evidence suggests that in fact, yes, the majority of Catholics are hypocrites.

    You see, according to the census, 84.2% of people identified themselves or were identified by other people as Catholic.

    However, figures collected by the Archdiocese of Dublin and The Irish Catholic show that the majority of these people don't attend mass regularly. According to the Dublin Archdiocese mass attendance averages approximately 20% and is falling on average 3.7% every year which will result in a one-third drop in attendance by 2030. Separately, the Irish Catholic polled people coming out of polling stations on election day and found that the national weekly mass attendance figure is 34%. This figure correlated with previous studies referenced by The Irish Catholic which also put the figure at 34%. So almost two thirds of Catholics fulfill your criterion for being declared hypocrites.


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    #71
    AryaStark
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭AryaStark


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Well, you say that, but by your criterion (highlighted in bold) above, then the evidence suggests that in fact, yes, the majority of Catholics are hypocrites.

    You see, according to the census, 84.2% of people identified themselves or were identified by other people as Catholic.

    However, figures collected by the Archdiocese of Dublin and The Irish Catholic show that the majority of these people don't attend mass regularly. According to the Dublin Archdiocese mass attendance averages approximately 20% and is falling on average 3.7% every year which will result in a one-third drop in attendance by 2030. Separately, the Irish Catholic polled people coming out of polling stations on election day and found that the national weekly mass attendance figure is 34%. This figure correlated with previous studies referenced by The Irish Catholic which also put the figure at 34%. So almost two thirds of Catholics fulfill your criterion for being declared hypocrites.

    Thanks for this answer. I used to argue with religious people all the time and had all the facts and figures. About 15 years ago I decided that I was very happy as an atheist and comfortable enough with it that I did not need to argue about it any more. It means that I do not have such data at hand.

    Not sure what I am doing here!!!!!


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    #72
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    Go into whitefriar street church any Saturday at 3pm. The place is always packed . No one is forcing these people to go there. They go in as they believe in God and the power of prayer. There is a lovely calm atmosphere in there.


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    #73
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    AryaStark wrote: »
    Thanks for this answer. I used to argue with religious people all the time and had all the facts and figures. About 15 years ago I decided that I was very happy as an atheist and comfortable enough with it that I did not need to argue about it any more. It means that I do not have such data at hand.

    Not sure what I am doing here!!!!!


    I love your attitude. :D

    It's simply live and let live. Why do people feel the need to convince everyone else that they're doing wrong or they're hypocrites or whatever?

    You do your own thing and let others do theirs.


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    #74
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,592 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Worztron wrote: »
    You just don't get it!

    So I should just forget about integrity and just pretend on the day that I belief all the religious guff? No way!

    When she's an adult she may be too brainwashed to realise that religion is actually all a lie -- like most folk mindlessly do and go along with.

    And stop using a child as a guilt pawn in your small-minded argument.

    Most kids aren't interested in the 'religious guff'. It's an occasion where they are centre stage. Their notion of religion at that age is probably the type of thing that everyone associates with being a decent human ('love one another' etc etc).

    Maybe she'll grow up with a mind of her own and make her own decisions....like you did.

    If going is your only option, it's not compromising your integrity. It's just doing something nice for family.


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    #75
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    Go into whitefriar street church any Saturday at 3pm. The place is always packed . No one is forcing these people to go there. They go in as they believe in God and the power of prayer. There is a lovely calm atmosphere in there.

    How does that relate to OP's question?


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    #76
    Riesen_Meal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,575 ✭✭✭✭Riesen_Meal


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    Go into whitefriar street church any Saturday at 3pm. The place is always packed . No one is forcing these people to go there. They go in as they believe in God and the power of prayer. There is a lovely calm atmosphere in there.

    What has that got to do with the thread?

    Please don't be trolling the Atheism forum

    I think you will find more like minded people for yourself over here :

    http://touch.boards.ie/forum/333


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    #77
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,414 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Fieldog wrote: »
    Please don't be trolling the Atheism forum
    FYI - mods decide who is, or might be, trolling the forum.


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    #78
    Riesen_Meal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,575 ✭✭✭✭Riesen_Meal


    robindch wrote: »
    FYI - mods decide who is, or might be, trolling the forum.

    Sorry Robin, I should have reported it to you...


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    #79
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    Fieldog wrote: »
    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    Go into whitefriar street church any Saturday at 3pm. The place is always packed . No one is forcing these people to go there. They go in as they believe in God and the power of prayer. There is a lovely calm atmosphere in there.

    What has that got to do with the thread?

    Please don't be trolling the Atheism forum

    I think you will find more like minded people for yourself over here :

    http://touch.boards.ie/forum/333
    Oh am I barred now as well. ??. For expressing my sentiments. !


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    #80
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭Worztron


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    Oh am I barred now as well. ??. For expressing my sentiments. !

    Read oldrnwisr's post: www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102537686&postcount=70

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



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    #81
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    Worztron wrote: »
    You just don't get it!

    So I should just forget about integrity and just pretend on the day that I belief all the religious guff? No way!

    When she's an adult she may be too brainwashed to realise that religion is actually all a lie -- like most folk mindlessly do and go along with.

    And stop using a child as a guilt pawn in your small-minded argument.

    I think you're being a little narrow minded. We live in a Christian country, and you'll be making a rod for your own back if you take such a loathsome view of religion. As for using a child in the argument, isn't that the reason for the thread?

    What if you had a daughter who has a church wedding, you going to let someone else walk her down the aisle? Where do you draw the line?


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    #82
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,414 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    Oh am I barred now as well. ??. For expressing my sentiments. !
    FYI - mods decide who is, or might be, trolling the forum.


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    #83
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    Worztron wrote: »
    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    Oh am I barred now as well. ??. For expressing my sentiments. !

    Read oldrnwisr's post: www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102537686&postcount=70
    No.


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    #84
    Riesen_Meal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,575 ✭✭✭✭Riesen_Meal


    My sister recently baptised her child, most likely for school reasons, in fairness to her she knew not to ask me to be Godfather because she knows my views on religion, I'm delighted she didn't as it would have been pretty awkward...

    I was able to attend the church, I didn't burst into flames thankfully, it was a standard christening day out...

    I'm not sure what I would do if I was in the OPs predicament though...

    Do you have to pretend to acknowledge that "God created earth" or what way does it work?


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    #85
    Lau2976
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Lau2976


    Worztron wrote: »
    You just don't get it!

    So I should just forget about integrity and just pretend on the day that I belief all the religious guff? No way!

    When she's an adult she may be too brainwashed to realise that religion is actually all a lie -- like most folk mindlessly do and go along with.

    And stop using a child as a guilt pawn in your small-minded argument.

    The main question you need to decide OP is if this will upset your niece.

    If no, dowgat you feel is right.

    If yes, is your integrity or your nieces feelings more important?


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    #86
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Fieldog wrote: »
    My sister recently baptised her child, most likely for school reasons, in fairness to her she knew not to ask me to be Godfather because she knows my views on religion, I'm delighted she didn't as it would have been pretty awkward...

    I was able to attend the church, I didn't burst into flames thankfully, it was a standard christening day out...

    I'm not sure what I would do if I was in the OPs predicament though...

    Do you have to pretend to acknowledge that "God created earth" or what way does it work?

    At a christening yes you do. As far as I remember it's something like "I accept God and all his teachings etc. etc. etc and condemn satan", something along those lines anyway.

    At communion you don't have to do anything.

    At confirmation you say much the same stuff think.


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    #87
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    Go into whitefriar street church any Saturday at 3pm. The place is always packed . No one is forcing these people to go there. They go in as they believe in God and the power of prayer. There is a lovely calm atmosphere in there.

    According to The Catholic Directory there are 1488 churches in Ireland based on 1087 Catholic parishes. The Archdiocese of Dublin's figures are based on surveys in the 214 churches in the archdiocese. So we have mass attendance in one large region and a national survey and against this you have what? The attendance in one single church. 1 out of 1488. It seems cliched to point this out (again) but the plural of anecdote is not data.


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    #88
    AryaStark
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭AryaStark


    Fieldog wrote: »
    My sister recently baptised her child, most likely for school reasons, in fairness to her she knew not to ask me to be Godfather because she knows my views on religion, I'm delighted she didn't as it would have been pretty awkward...

    I was able to attend the church, I didn't burst into flames thankfully, it was a standard christening day out...

    I'm not sure what I would do if I was in the OPs predicament though...

    Do you have to pretend to acknowledge that "God created earth" or what way does it work?

    Nowadays there are usually a few babies being christened at the same time (I was lucky at least and that is how it was for me)

    The priest calls on the godparents to agree to certain things are I think you are meant to say Yes and go along with what he says. I did not say anything and just stood there feeling a little silly. If he had have asked me directly I would have lied (I told my brother it was ok and I would cross my fingers!!!!!)... I am glad that I didn't have to.
    One thing that annoys me is that the priest said something about taking the sin from the child..... my Godchild is beautifull and I wanted to tell the priest to get away from him when he was talking about him being born with sin.

    Years ago I said no to being a Godparent quite a bit but now my brother has 4 kids and they really love the godparents and are made to feel special by them. That is why I agreed to become one...


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    #89
    witchgirl26
    Registered Users Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    OP - here's the thing I think. We all end up going along with some things to a certain extent because of the people involved and holding our own tongue for an hour or two. I've been to weddings of other faiths where I stood up, sat down & sang along because it was a close relatives occasion and I'd been invited. I didn't necessarily believe in anything and I just kept silent for the affirmation pieces.
    My sister-in-law (who is very religious) has also gone to humanist wedding ceremonies which she personally didn't believe in (her right) because of the people involved. She didn't try to convert anyone.

    It's very much a live & let live. From experience, unless you're a sponsor at confirmation, there is little or nothing you have to do at the ceremony. I didn't even have to go if I wasn't able to take time off work but it happened I was off so popped along. At communion there is nothing at all from what I recall.

    Also the child in questions religious thoughts or beliefs, honestly at this point, are not your responsibility. You're not the parent. I'd say be honest with them if you want and answer questions but it isn't your place to belittle or demean the beliefs the child is being raised with. I've had honest conversations with my nephew about not going to mass & what I do or don't believe but I would never try to convince him. I'd prefer him to make his own mind up.

    If you are concerned about being asked to be sponsor, maybe have a quiet word with the parents about encouraging your niece to pick the other godparent or someone else they're close to instead.


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    #90
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    witchgirl26 wrote: »
    Also the child in questions religious thoughts or beliefs, honestly at this point, are not your responsibility. You're not the parent. I'd say be honest with them if you want and answer questions but it isn't your place to belittle or demean the beliefs the child is being raised with. I've had honest conversations with my nephew about not going to mass & what I do or don't believe but I would never try to convince him. I'd prefer him to make his own mind up.

    A fine sentiment. Proselytising other peoples children is in my opinion an entirely pernicious activity. One lest we forget that is actively carried out by the Catholic church through the education system and sponsored by our government, which incidentally is the reason many baptisms and subsequent ceremonies take place. Those of us who loathe the Catholic church have our legitimate reasons.


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    #91
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,552 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Worztron wrote: »
    You just don't get it!

    So I should just forget about integrity and just pretend on the day that I belief all the religious guff? No way!

    When she's an adult she may be too brainwashed to realise that religion is actually all a lie -- like most folk mindlessly do and go along with.

    And stop using a child as a guilt pawn in your small-minded argument.
    Worztron wrote: »
    Really?

    The majority of catholics in Ireland don't go to church -- hence the continually falling numbers at mass. So yes they are hypocrites in labeling themselves as catholic. I wish they'd be honest about it.

    I think this whole thing is being taken way too literal...

    Many many people don't go to church regularly but would call themselves christian and even catholic or protestant.. Many people have a religion on their own terms and choose what they believe in and on what grounds they associate themselves as catholic/protestant or whatever, that doesn't make them hypocrites, it just makes them themselves..

    I would label myself catholic through tradition but my beliefs are actually more aligned with Church of Ireland beliefs, however religion is soooo far down on my list of priorities in life that I just muddle along as me and do the sorta "a la carte catholic" thing, go to mass an odd time, bit more at the moment as my youngest is making communion this year.. I'm certainly not a hypocrite, I'm not pretending to be anything I'm not..

    I'll just come right out and say what I'm thinking, I think OP needs to get over themselves and their belief/non beliefs. OP is lucky to have a family that appreciate him enough to ask him to be part of their child's life, this should be embraced and make the best of it... big swing if OP has to suck it in and go along with the herd for the sacraments, this literally a 1 hour ceremony for communion, confirmation, wedding. three hours out of that childs life that you have to compromise your principals just a little but have the chance to be the godfather forever..

    Its likely that child knows well you are the godfather and by backing out of that now your putting yourself before that 8 year old child's needs and that is all the child will see, you not wanting to be their godfather, and they won't understand why other than you possibly don't care.. I have an 8 year old, I know well how they think.

    What I see is someone wanting to put their loathing of the church and how they feel WAY above what they feel for their family or neice/nephew. My brothers are godfathers for both my girls and if they did that I couldn't see it any other way. I see how my girls view their godparents as being that bit more than other relatives and its a really nice thing, I've three godchildren myself. It is what you make of it and in our family its not about religion, its about family ties.


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