Atheist godfather to niece for communion and confirmation.

Worztron

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Here, watch this: "I believe in One God the Father Almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth.." I did not choke, lightning did not strike me. I recited a bit of rote text.

Are you unable to recite "I wandered lonely as a cloud" because that totally never happened, you never saw a host of feckin daffodils, it is NOT TRUE!!!

Who cares? It's just empty words vs. a godchild's biggest day of the year.

Yes, so according to you it's fine to lie and perpetuate these silly religion charades.

Your poem analogy makes zero sense.

Worztron

meeeeh wrote: »

Does anything describe 'first world problem' better than this thread. I am pretty sure the godfather will be the last person parents or the little girl will be preoccupied with during confirmation/ first communion. Nobody cares so stop inventing problems where there are none just to pretend to be the social outcast because of your beliefs or lack of them.

'first world problem' -- a hackneyed if ever there was one.

Doctor Shivering

Worztron wrote: »

Yes, so according to you it's fine to lie and perpetuate these silly religion charades.

Your poem analogy makes zero sense.

Who's lying though ? An untruth if propegated by someone who believes it to be true even if it's not is not a lie
An atheist God parent isn't lying either by participating in a structure around someone else's beliefs


These situations are better not dealt with over dramatically

Worztron

Qs wrote: »

Its rather annoying that people can't ask simple questions about whats expected of them in a religious event and how we think they should deal with it without a pile on of insults.

Yes, the religious talking heads can't wait to storm the Atheism & Agnosticism section to spew their intolerance for non-religious views/questions.

frostyjacks

Worztron wrote: »

I don't think the church is vile - I know it is vile. Have you already forgotten about the widespread pedophilia and cover-ups? Disgusting!

Again, the expectation that everyone should accommodate the religion ways. How'd you like to go to an atheist convention?

If it was my duty to my niece, then yes, I would swallow my pride and be the bigger man. I'm a Christian but I live in the real world. I wouldn't dishonour my own blood just for some pretentious claptrap. Life's too short.

Worztron

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I would not go that far, some principles are very important indeed.

But refusing to go to a family occasion because you loathe religion is not one of the important ones - it is a self-indulgent bit of vanity to imagine that anyone cares whether you loathe religion or not at a kids event.

"self-indulgent bit of vanity" -- you really are taking the p now.

Worztron

frostyjacks wrote: »

If Orangemen can bring themselves to attend a Catholic funeral, surely you can be at your niece's side for her Holy Communion and Confirmation.

http://m.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/elliott-no-kerr-funeral-regrets-26772971.html

Don't slight your family just to prove how virtuous you are. It would be a hollow victory.

Well they both believe in the same sky daddy so that's a weak comparison.

I'm not trying to slight anyone nor looking for a victory. Read the posts properly instead of posting one assumption after another.

Zubeneschamali

Worztron wrote: »

Well they both believe in the same sky daddy so that's a weak comparison.

I've changed my mind - you should politely decline to attend.

But not because you are an atheist.

Worztron

robindch wrote: »

^^^ What I'm getting from the above and many other posters is that it's fine to tell lies in public, regardless of whether it's just you who knows they're lies or whether the entire church and everybody in it knows they're lies.

Did Pope Frank or Jesus repeal that thing about "bearing false witness" and I just missed it or something?

Yes, it's ironic that it's mostly the religious posters that are encouraging to just go there and that I should be totally dishonest and lie all around me.

meeeeh

So I was right, this was all about grand standing.

We get ut op, you are the biggest atheist in town.

Worztron

jobbridge4life wrote: »

So you wouldn't be a grooms man to your brother? Or help carry the coffin for your mother? (assuming these are Catholic ceremonies)

Standing in a church is not an endorsement of that church or everyone of its official beliefs.

I don't have a brother so that's not an issue. Yes, I'd carry the coffin but I would not be chanting prayers while doing so.

spookwoman

No one is forcing you to chant prayers etc, go show your face for your niece. It's her day not yours.

Worztron

frostyjacks wrote: »

If it was my duty to my niece, then yes, I would swallow my pride and be the bigger man. I'm a Christian but I live in the real world. I wouldn't dishonour my own blood just for some pretentious claptrap. Life's too short.

You continue to gloss over my replies to you.

Again with the over simplification.

You live in the real world but believe in the supernatural.

You say "pretentious claptrap" -- oh the irony.

Doctor Shivering

Worztron wrote: »

I don't have a brother so that's not an issue. Yes, I'd carry the coffin but I would not be chanting prayers while doing so.

So there is a line? What if the coffin has a cross on it ?

Walter H Price

Worztron wrote: »

I don't have a brother so that's not an issue. Yes, I'd carry the coffin but I would not be chanting prayers while doing so.

I'm no fan of the hypothetical what if's or fake scenarios and i totally understand your frustration, it is an absolute annoyance that kids are still getting the old religious indoctrination in school.

I'd wager that if your sister had to take your niece to mass or she had to go to Sunday school she probably wouldn't even be making communion or conformation , though maybe she would.

In any event i understand 100% your reluctance to be a sponsor as you feel it would be deceitful and meaningless for you to say whatever it is your required to say and equally i think your sister should respect that , maybe just speak to her in advance as far as i know you only need one sponsor for a confo maybe advise your sister that she should suggests the child's godmother a favored auntie , unlce or older cousin basically anyone that's not you , the sponsor doesn't even have to be a godparent

All you really have to do is be there for the kid , go to the lunch after even and skip the church my understanding is numbers of family are limited in most churches anyway for these sacraments maybe suggest your sister she invite your mum or something in your place for the church, given they would value being part of the ceremony more due to your non belief etc...

eviltwin

Worztron wrote: »

Yes, it's ironic that it's mostly the religious posters that are encouraging to just go there and that I should be totally dishonest and lie all around me.

What exactly are you being asked to lie about? Just go and observe, you don't have to say or do anything. Get a few pics taken, give her a few quid and make a fuss over her. Is there some issue with that?

meeeeh

eviltwin wrote: »

What exactly are you being asked to lie about? Just go and observe, you don't have to say or do anything. Get a few pics taken, give her a few quid and make a fuss over her. Is there some issue with that?

I have a suspicion OP wasn't even invited to the mass, never mind to sponsor anyone. Maybe it's different in Ireland but I didn't think the whole family clan has to be present for ceremony.

Btw my mother's parents were not religious, they would be very reluctant to even go into the church (long story to do with ww2). Nobody noticed or cared they were not at my or my brother's ceremonies. My granfather was my god father and grandmother was brother's god mother. There was no fuss, no big declarations, I think one time they met us outside church and another time we called over to them. I honestly don't get all the fuss. Op could do whatever he wants quietly, go or not go but it's too big of an opportunity to miss to make it all about himself.

PraxisPete

jobbridge4life wrote: »

So you wouldn't be a grooms man to your brother? Or help carry the coffin for your mother? (assuming these are Catholic ceremonies)

Standing in a church is not an endorsement of that church or everyone of its official beliefs.

You have to actively partake in a christening. Stand on the alter, renounce Satan and that jazz. If my mother wants her funeral in a church which is unlikely I would attend but I wouldn't speak.

My brother holds similar views to me so there's no danger of that.

I agree though that standing in a church isn't an endorsement but being part of it by being a godparent is.

Zubeneschamali

PraxisPete wrote: »

I agree though that standing in a church isn't an endorsement but being part of it by being a godparent is.

Nobody on the entire planet cares if you "endorse" the catholic church or not, least of all the catholic church.

It's like refusing to go outside in case someone thinks you are endorsing rain.

PraxisPete

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Nobody on the entire planet cares if you "endorse" the catholic church or not, least of all the catholic church.

It's like refusing to go outside in case someone thinks you are endorsing rain.

The Catholic Church would love my endorsement. They might get more than 6 people in to our local church on a Sunday.

spookwoman

PraxisPete wrote: »

You have to actively partake in a christening. Stand on the alter, renounce Satan and that jazz. If my mother wants her funeral in a church which is unlikely I would attend but I wouldn't speak.

My brother holds similar views to me so there's no danger of that.

I agree though that standing in a church isn't an endorsement but being part of it by being a godparent is.

If I remember correctly I didn't have to say anything at my nephews christening that might be the fact I'm not catholic and the priest knew.
I also believe the god parent is just a label these days and means nothing. I was not christened catholic and my atheist brother and his catholic wife know I'm a full blown atheist and more than likely to burst into flames for putting my foot in any church.
I think most of the time getting the kids to make these sacraments is more tradition and expected than actual belief.

Qs

This whole "making it about yourself" argument is extremely childish. He's not asking is it ok to protest the event.

witchgirl26

Worztron wrote: »

Yes, it's ironic that it's mostly the religious posters that are encouraging to just go there and that I should be totally dishonest and lie all around me.

OP I wouldn't describe myself as religious but I have faith so maybe I'm one of those people you reference above. However I don't think you should be dishonest & lie to anyone. But going to a ceremony doesn't mean you are lying. Just don't say any of the prayers or the affirmations or any of that. Doesn't mean you can't be there. I've been to weddings of different religions and just kept schtum the whole time. It's not lying but I wanted to be there for friends.

As has been noted, it's really only the sponsor at the confirmation that has to do anything so maybe just make sure you're not going to be picked as that. Communion doesn't really have a role and I know a lot of places only allow parents & siblings to the church as space is limited so you might not even have to go. If you are asked - just don't affirm anything or say the prayers. You won't be the only one - there were quite a few at my nephews communion & confirmation who just stayed seated.

pilly

Worztron wrote: »

Yes, the religious talking heads can't wait to storm the Atheism & Agnosticism section to spew their intolerance for non-religious views/questions.

I think if you actually read all of the posts then it's not only religious people saying you should go, it's everyone.

I'm neither so don't have any agenda. I'm not sure what you wanted out of the original post. For everyone to tell you that you should disown your niece?

I don't get it? Had some sympathy for your original dilemma but now you're posts are just insulting everyone who has bothered to take the time to reply.

Not one person has suggested you tell any lies and yet you keep coming back to that.

Hrududu

What lies are you expecting to tell?

You won't be participating in the ceremony. Unless the kid asks you something religious afterwards you probably won't be asked anything. At least from the communions I've been to, once the mass is over there's no more religious talk. It's all money, food, bouncy castles etc. So there might be no need to compromise and say something you don't believe at all.

CiarraiAbu2

CiarraiAbu2 wrote: »

Lads, this thread is starting to run away with it's self,

OP you don't have to do anything on the day except be a good uncle and brother, just stand at the back of church, get your photo taking afterwards (Smile) and enjoy the family get together afterwards where there will no discussion about religion by anyone. If it's a small school they might have tea afterwards, just have a chat no biggie.

PS: No harm telling your niece she look beautiful either.

Read the above, just go and enjoy the day, not a big deal

Fian

pilly wrote: »

Not one person has suggested you tell any lies and yet you keep coming back to that.

Well tbh some have. I am an atheist, I mentioned in an earlier post that I will be perfectly sanguine at saying the script when my godchildren's confirmations come along, assuming they want me there. They will not be aware that I am an atheist because I am perfectly happy to let their parents decide how to bring them up and don't feel any need to make a point of what i think myself. I don't consider the ritual to have any "magic" or miraculous element to it so I don't care about just playing along with it to avoid distracting from my godchildren's day. I will happily "reject Satan and all his works" in front of the priest and smile while I do so.

Just like I don't feel compelled to express my real beliefs on Santa Claus in front of them.

pilly

Fian wrote: »

Well tbh some have. I am an atheist, I mentioned in an earlier post that I will be perfectly sanguine at saying the script when my godchildren's confirmations come along, assuming they want me there. They will not be aware that I am an atheist because I am perfectly happy to let their parents decide how to bring them up and don't feel any need to make a point of what i think myself. I don't consider the ritual to have any "magic" or miraculous element to it so I don't care about just playing along with it to avoid distracting from my godchildren's day. I will happily "reject Satan and all his works" in front of the priest and smile while I do so.

Just like I don't feel compelled to express my real beliefs on Santa Claus in front of them.

Very good point, should we all run around telling children Santa doesn't exist because it's a lie?

Qs

pilly wrote: »

Very good point, should we all run around telling children Santa doesn't exist because it's a lie?

We don't have grown adults worshipping Santa. Santa worshippers don't have massive political influence. And your kid wont be rejected from a school because he doesn't worship Santa. Yawn.

How many times do we have to deal with these false equivalences?

smacl

pilly wrote: »

Very good point, should we all run around telling children Santa doesn't exist because it's a lie?

As an atheist, for my kids Santa has always been treated pretty much the same as the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. I think its great to infuse children's lives with a rich sense of fantasy and wonder, adults too for that matter, but I know damn well that they were young enough when they cottoned on that that keeping up these pretences was primarily important to get the resulting goodies. The magic is only kept alive by the few bob, the chocolate egg, or the stocking full of swag. Never done the confirmation / communion thing, but I gather that for very many of the kids, its all about the payout.

I suspect for many kids, Jesus falls into the same category as Santa. More about tradition than belief, a bit of a fairy story for the younger kids, and good for a few bob on these big occasions.