Wet foil shaver at 50-60 Eur? Or should I go DE?

MichaelR

Hello,

I have gone beardless after 13 years of beard wearing. Got tired of the longish beard look. So I bought a Babyliss for men 10 in 1 groomer. The trimmers seem to work all right, though I never tried a more expensive one so can't really compare. But the foil shaver head on this device just does nothing for me. Endless repeats lead to irritation while the hairs just stay there.

Well, at least if I want a beard again it has trimmers and combs for them so I can keep it shorter this time...

But to complete the beardless look I need a close shave. And I tend to get frequent cuts with regular cartridge systems. And it's hard to stop the blood, too. Sensitive skin, apparently.

As far as I understand after a lot of googling, I probably need a foil, as opposed to rotary, shaver. And I think I need a wet and dry one, so I can use shaving gel to get a better shave and avoid a repeat of what I am getting now. I don't want to spend loads of money, but it looks like over 50 Euro is a given, unless I am willing to risk ordering unknown names from Amazon. There are three models in the "slightly over 50" price range in Argos and I wonder which one I should pick:

Panasonic ES-RT37 http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/5586677/c_1/1%7Ccategory_root%7CHealth+and+personal+care%7C19805475/c_2/3%7Ccat_19805475%7CMen%27s+shavers%7C14418367.htm

Remington PF7600 http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/5807882/c_1/1%7Ccategory_root%7CHealth+and+personal+care%7C14418350/c_2/3%7Ccat_19805475%7CMen%27s+shavers%7C14418367.htm

Braun 3040s http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/4242572/c_1/1%7Ccategory_root%7CHealth+and+personal+care%7C14418350/c_2/3%7Ccat_19805475%7CMen%27s+shavers%7C14418367.htm (slightly more expensive at 65 Euro)

Which one of these should I pick if I want a close, comfortable wet and dry shave?

After perusing the forum, I realized that another option in my case would be to try double-edged if cartridges lead to too many cuts. But I wonder if this is likely to help or hurt if my main problem is frequent cuts. I am not exactly great at precision hand movement.

beardybrewer

Welcome to the forum Michael. May I ask are you just fast and loose with your shaves or do you have a skin condition or another issue resulting in frequent cuts?

The main benefit of DE in my mind is you can afford to always have a sharp blade. Rather than try and stretch expensive Mach 3 multi-blades you can replace your blade in a DE razor every few shaves. Unlike cartridge razors, DE razors are weighted so the weight of the razor and a sharp blade do all the work. They have a reputation for being very sharp, but when used correctly result in less cuts and nicks for most DE users. It is easily the most satisfying way to shave. In addition to great results the associated soaps / creams can offer good protection from cuts and often leave your skin in great shape too.

If you're interested, have a look over this simple series which covers the basics: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2DB6D82F52BA7608

MichaelR

Bought the Panasonic. Used it dry for now. It gave a workable shave, similar to what I usually got from cartridge razors and gel, at least when not trying VERY hard. Skin feels dotted (somewhat like fine sandpaper) and there is a slightly visible shadow.

Did not try wet yet, because I did not find a brush in the shops that were open at the time, though I did find a cream. I want to try wet electric with a brush (yes, a strange mix).

Moreover, after reading up on DE, I am thinking of a blasphemous combination for cases when one wants to look really good - electric (dry or wet) then DE for perfection. In theory this, while not compatible with DE as a zen style practice, should give a combination of clean shave, speed and safety. (DE works by gradually decreasing hair length, and catching on a hair that sticks out is a way to get a cut; so I start DE with hair already trimmed down, nothing to catch on for that cut, and quicker completion because much of the decrease is done?)

I do wonder how this will work in practice, but I'll only know once I have the brush and then the DE gear. I'll try some pharmacies for a brush tomorrow.

stimpson

MichaelR wrote: »

Moreover, after reading up on DE, I am thinking of a blasphemous combination for cases when one wants to look really good - electric (dry or wet) then DE for perfection. In theory this, while not compatible with DE as a zen style practice, should give a combination of clean shave, speed and safety. (DE works by gradually decreasing hair length, and catching on a hair that sticks out is a way to get a cut; so I start DE with hair already trimmed down, nothing to catch on for that cut, and quicker completion because much of the decrease is done?)

I do wonder how this will work in practice, but I'll only know once I have the brush and then the DE gear. I'll try some pharmacies for a brush tomorrow.

I imagine a DE pass with the grain (ie. the mildest pass) would remove far more hair than an electric. I find much of the time spent on DE is prep/after care and the passes don't take that long themselves. You may as well just do an extra DE pass than faff about with a shaver.

Since I got my technique down I find that cuts only happen if I'm applying too much pressure or using a blade that doesn't suit me.

MichaelR

It's not about time for me - it's about cuts. The shaver (dry - still did not try wet) does as well as your average cartridge, but unlike your average cartridge, there is zero chance for cuts.

As for DE prep, it will work with this shaver. because it's wet/dry. In fact this is the plan; I just failed to find a brush yesterday. The plan is to get that, and then basic DE gear too, and see how it works. For the moments when I want a real close shave, I'll use the brush and either shaver+DE or just DE - whatever the experience shows is best. The shaver alone works for a typical day, and has the advantage of zero cut risk even when totally clumsy.

I appreciate the idea of getting the technique down but not sure I'm willing to pay for that in blood!

stimpson

MichaelR wrote: »

It's not about time for me - it's about cuts. The shaver (dry - still did not try wet) does as well as your average cartridge, but unlike your average cartridge, there is zero chance for cuts.

As for DE prep, it will work with this shaver. because it's wet/dry. In fact this is the plan; I just failed to find a brush yesterday. The plan is to get that, and then basic DE gear too, and see how it works. For the moments when I want a real close shave, I'll use the brush and either shaver+DE or just DE - whatever the experience shows is best. The shaver alone works for a typical day, and has the advantage of zero cut risk even when totally clumsy.

I appreciate the idea of getting the technique down but not sure I'm willing to pay for that in blood!

I think you are just as likely to cut yourself after the electric shave. I don't think the extra growth leads to cuts - just bad prep/technique. I rarely if ever nick myself anymore, and when I do it's tiny - certainly no gushers.

I'd advise you to buy a good badger hair brush (you'll probably have to buy it online). I started with a cheap Omega boar hair which was OK, but I got a badger one for Christmas and the difference in the thickness of the lather (and therefore the protection/comfort) is amazing. I've only seen the Wilkinson Sword brushes in the shops here and they are synthetic (I.E. shite)

MichaelR

Thanks - all noted for experimenting

MichaelR

I have acquired very basic DE kit because, honestly, I am not ready to invest a lot in an experiment. Wilkinson Classic DE razor - which a review says is good for a final pass http://www.bruceonshaving.com/2010/12/03/wilkinson-sword-classic-de-razor/ . Palmolive cream, and a Palmolive shaving stick for good measure - Tesco stuff. And a random 7 Euro shaving brush from a pharmacy.

I know the brush is probably a throwaway but I really wanted to have one without waiting a week. If the Wilkinson turns out workable, it means I basically have DE nearly for free, because I wanted the other gear for wet electric. And the review seems to say the Wilkinson is a fine beginner razor, which even turns the blade away if one tries a dangerous angle.

stimpson

I recommend you go through this guys beginners series. He explains everything in simple terms and will save you a lot of pain.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n1GMiwGoe9c

MichaelR

Hmm, looking at the brush (that I got from a local pharmacy for 7 Euro). It says "The Vulfix Old Original Shaving Company" on the logo and "pure bristle" on the other side of the handle. It appears that Vulfix does not make synthetics, at least not as Old Original, but it's too cheap for badger. Looks like I ended up with a boar brush? Is there a way to work out if it's synthetic or boar?

stimpson

Pure bristle = boar.

All My Stars Aligned

Give the brush a good soak in hot water before using each time (2-3 mins). It will lather much better then just wetting it.

MichaelR

Did an electric wet shave. Used the Palmolive shaving stick, which was excellent for the purpose. Applied the stick while brush was soaking, lathered with the brush. The lather was very nice but also quite a thin layer - much unlike the shop foams. I think this should work best for electric?

Anyway - with the lather I used the Panasonic ES-R37. Slowly, in multiple passes mainly with the grain, then relathered and did more passes against the grain.

The result was an enjoyable and safe shave that was as close as what I used to get with cartridges on a pretty good day, at least on the cheeks. The chin/neck, somewhat worse, still very workable. Yet while the cheeks feel only slightly grainy. there is a visible "shadow", at lesat if one looks closely.

Next I'll try the DE as a finishing pass - still soaking up the videos etc. Meanwhile I have ordered a single pack of Personna blades, so I'll try these as well as the Wilkinson ones. (The choice is because of a comment on a blog). I am not putting any big money into DE before I am sure it's a good idea. Basic kit is here.

beardybrewer

Absolutely just do what suits you. The cheesy phrase often uttered when it comes to shaving is "your mileage may vary". That's why there's so many options and opinions on what works best. I will say that a lot of guys who get some irritation with a regular shaving are able to reduce that to nearly zero when they go DE.

Just to note, nothing about DE implies spending a lot of money. After plunking down maybe 30 quid for a razor the surprise is the importance of the brush that can easily cost 4x that. But a good boar brush is not expensive and can be had for 15 quid if the one you got loses its bristles or you feel it's holding you back from getting a good lather.

Palmolive shave sticks are top notch and produce a great, thick lather easily. Breaking in your brush and learning how to get a cushioning yogurt-like lather with a slick glide takes practice. Wet shaving soaps and creams are superior to canned goo in both protection and promoting healthy skin. The action of the brush does good too and helps reduce ingrown hairs.

Good luck

MichaelR

I actually like the feeling of boar brush, though I fear it might waste soon without a drip stand (ordered on ebay from China,so might take some time to come). If anything I'd like to try a firmer brush - should I perhaps look for horse hair? It gives the face a massage, not just a lather. I'm not interested in badger as anything softer than this boar brush will just not feel right. (Besides, I'm not exactly comfortable with gassing wild animals in their habitats, while I am quite comfortable with the fact that pigs get slaughtered. Might be just me).

"Canned goo" is not even a consideration at this point, at least if the Palmolive stick and Palmolive cream are good enough, since I don't expect to plonk out the money for shiny cans of fancy cream or soap anytime soon. The most expensive I'd go is probably Speick if I can find a reliable way to get it. Also a friend or relative might go to my native Russia and bring me the shaving creams popular there (Russian makes and Arko); they are as cheap as the Palmolive, just not readily available here, though in case of Arko I'm not sure why.

(I'm quite perplexed, though, by the fact that Tesco sells cream and stick, but does not sell brushes,while pharmacies sell brushes and sometimes cream, but not the sticks).

uncle_sam_ie

Of all my brushes this is one of my favorites, http://www.shaving.ie/products/semogue-owners-club-2-boar-ash.html

Have a look at RazoRock Plissoft Synthetic brushes as well. They're unbelievable when it comes to lathering. https://www.shavingstation.co.uk/razorock-shaving-brushes/

I would recommend horse hair. That was a regret buy.

beardybrewer

Standing the brush up and keeping it where there is some air flow (as opposed to in the cabinet) will go a long way. You can get cheap stands for a few quid:

http://www.shaving.ie/products/muhle-shaving-brush-holders.html

Boar brushes are more scrubby which lots of people prefer. Semogue and Omega make quality brushes around the €15 mark.

http://www.shaving.ie/boar/

MichaelR

Here is a progress report about both techniques.

The Panasonic ES-RT37 is doing well. I am using it dry for now. In about 3 minutes I can get a socially acceptable shave. And then I can do the long and thoughtful clean-upprocess, which does not even require a mirror and can be done at the PC. Feel the face with a hand in all directions. Where I can feel some stubble, do some passes against the grain. Repeat. (The DE videos with face sectors and grain directions were an inspiration for this type of electric cleanup shaving).

After 20-30 minutes of this I get a pretty good shave, better than what I used to get with cartridges. On the cheeks the stubble is very hard or impossible to feel, things are a tad worse on the chin/neck, but even there it only VERY short stubble. Unfortunately, a "shadow" is still visible on the face when one looks closely, even when I can not feel any stubble. And I don't get any nicks, and nearly no irritation; applying the after-shave is a wholly pleasant experience. Also I now have the Boots electric pre-shave; I think it makes things marginally better.

The trimmer is not working on the Panasonic ES-RT37, so I am considering returning it on warranty and upgrading to the Panasonic ES-LT2N, as the latter has a 13000 rpm motor, as opposed to the 10000 rpm of what I have now.

And today, I did finally try DE (a few hours after an electric shave).. I held a hot water towel against the face for a couple of minutes while the brush was soaking. Then I lathered up, using the Palmolive cream this time. And did a WTG pass. This was followed by three more relathers and passes (ATG, XTG, ATG;the last pass did not include the mustace area as that was already quite clean and quite tender).

Unfortunately my technique is not great yet. I am not sure about the angles and I did pass over the same place twice (without relathering) many times. This is probably the reason why I ended up with a number of nicks. All of them, however, were small dots; none kept bleeding, like the cuts I used to get from cartridges some years ago. I still tapped over them with the styptic pencil at the end. (I think that I got most of them in the first pass, but not sure).

The result on the cheeks is broadly similar to what I get with the Panasonic after 20-30 minutes (the DE shave took about the same time). I can braely feel any stubble but a "shadow" is visible when looking closely. The chin/neck was better than after the electric, and the mustace area was outright perfect. Also, the sideburns were much easier to handle and ended up much neater (compared to using the Babyliss trimmer).

The irritation was considerably stronger than with the electric; after applying the after-shave I was in some pain, which mostly died down soon, but a couple mildly sore spots remain about 10 minutes later.

Of course this is not comparison of like for like. My first DE experience netted a similar (slightly better) grade of shave than what I get with the electric after a few days. But this was done in the late afternoon, when I am at my best. I'm afraid that the safety of the electric definitely wins out for mornings, when I am much more clumsy (and also tend to be in a hurry to do stuff, so shaving at the PC helps - I mostly work from home). Also there is much more fuss with the DE. Notably, I don't feel safe leaving an open blade out to dry in a house with children. When washing out the razor today, I ended up drying the blade and razor with a towel and then putting it back together immediately. But this approach might lead to the blade rusting Any solutions for this one?

I think that for now the DE stays as a hobby shave for when I have time - it is definitely a more involved, fun experience. It also stays as a special shave when I need to have a perfect face for an evening outing. If I get better with technique I might consider mornings - but not very soon. (Also, some people claim it gets better with a Personna blade. A single box of these is, I think, in the mail to me already).

The Wilkinson Classic razor, by the way, appears to be a safety razor with an emphasis on "safety". A perfect starter, I never felt any danger with it and never cut myself with the blade (the nicks were obviously hair roots), even though my technique is far from perfect. I think it is intended mainly for older people, who often have imperfect control over precise movements, and also are often on a small pension.

Also a question - I should replace the blade every three shaves, right? I don't want to take any risks. (Perhaps if I end up doing DE infrequently, I'll just dump the blade after a shave and insert a new blade before the next shave, thus resolving the drying question)

stimpson

Nicks suggest too much pressure is being used. If the Wilkinson sword is mild and light (i.e. Made of plastic) then there is probably a tendency to put pressure on it. If using a heavier metal razor then the weight of the razor is enough. Also, if it's mild then you may be applying more pressure to cut closer.

When I started I got a sample pack with 7 different blades to try. Some are awful for closeness and irritation. Some are so-so. But the one that gives me a fantastic shave with almost zero irritation is the Feather, which are the probably the sharpest you can buy. I put it down to the fact that I treat them with a lot of respect and don't use any pressure.

MichaelR

I have heard a lot about using the weight. But the nicks are mostly on the chin and there, the weight pulls the razor away!

The razor is actually made of resin, not plastic, and does have some weight in it. But I see no way to rely on the weight when shaving the chin, unless I throw my head so far back I won't be able to see the mirror.

There is also the matter of me not wanting to risk leaving a blade to air-dry.

Honestly, in the dry Panasonic run today I managed to achieve the same grade as that four-pass DE try. But I do suspect that I might get an even better shave with DE (perhaps even no noticeable shade?) if I get better technique and/or a better blade. Personna in the mail. Perhaps I should try Feather too, but if they are very sharp, perhaps not at once.

adrian522

On the DE shave I'd reduce the number of passes. I'd also shower before the shave rather than use a wet towel.

For me I go WTG, XTG (L-R) XTG (R-L) with no XTG passes. I find it works well.

I'd also advise not to go chasing a completely smooth shave straight from the off. That will come as your technique improves. Concentrate on using no pressure and aim for less irritation and with time as your technique improves you will notice your shave getting better.

A lo of people recomend only shaving WTG for the first 2 or 3 weeks as your face adjusts to this method of shaving!

MichaelR

Correction to my previous post - it seems the Wilkinson Classic *is* plastic. The weight is there because of a metal core.

With a shower in the mix, the DE technique is definitely not something I can afford for a daily morning shave in winter. (A morning shower then going outside = high probability of a cold). Besides, I have pretty good electric shaves now, close enough (nearly baby-bottom on cheeks), very convenient and done in about 10 minutes without the need for a mirror. And the Panasonic seems to work better day by day... but the beardless face does not. The look is apparently not working out.

I retain a lot of interest in DE, because I am thinking of regrowing some of the beard but contouring it strictly. And nothing contours like a single, blade with a clearly visible line. I will use a trimmer to keep the beard itself short, but trimmer contouring means living with stubble on non-bearded parts. And cartridge contouring means random lines (I tried that before).

adrian522

Not sure how having a shower will increase your chances of catching a cold but best of luck with whatever shaves you go with in the future.

MichaelR

Wet hair in the cold air - really, really not a great idea. And I'm staying away from dryers in an attempt, somewhat successful, to slow the balding process.

(I can shower without affecting the head but I think this sorta won't work for a shave, and I'm not as precise as to shower the face but keep the hair dry).

DE beard contouring, however, won't have this problem as one does not have to do it, most of the time, exactly in the morning, and it proably wont even be required every day. So I'm keeping the DE equipment dry and trying to select a suitable blade. Just won't upgrade much. The Wilkinson Sword Classic can do fine.