VW emissions software update - disaster

Gwynston

No it tells you alright.
Tested my Golf and that site reports this:

The EA189 Technical measure for this vehicle has been carried out.

jcd5971

Micky 32 wrote:

My EGR failed despite being driven lively. They are a common fault and they will all fail eventually regardless how you drive, still mine lasted nearly 100k miles.

I can't believe I missed this thread EGR went in my 2011 Passat. Absolute nightmare to fix 3 weeks in garage parts replaced but they could not get the lights on dash to stay out.
They then came back saying it was the dpf filter causing it and it had to be regenerated ( whatever that meant I dunno).

So eventually car back cost well over a thousand to fix but at least it's working.
Fast forward 2 months get the letter for the update brought it in get it done,. And boom lights on dash again 😞.

Back to dealer they check it and insist it's fine just a faulty wire and to ignore it... Joke

Sam Russell

KCross wrote: »

My understanding is that that website just tells you if the car is part of the recall but doesn't actually tell you if the fix has been applied.
https://campaigncheck.ie/

Mine is reported as being done, but not with my say so.

RedorDead

jcd5971 wrote: »

I can't believe I missed this thread EGR went in my 2011 Passat. Absolute nightmare to fix 3 weeks in garage parts replaced but they could not get the lights on dash to stay out.
They then came back saying it was the dpf filter causing it and it had to be regenerated ( whatever that meant I dunno).

So eventually car back cost well over a thousand to fix but at least it's working.
Fast forward 2 months get the letter for the update brought it in get it done,. And boom lights on dash again 😞.

Back to dealer they check it and insist it's fine just a faulty wire and to ignore it... Joke

Does your car get regular long motorway trips or is it confined mainly to urban driving? Id say 50-60% of diesel cars bought since 2008 werent actually needed and the driver would have been better suited driving petrol or alternative power but sure we all love the cheap tax! :rolleyes:

jcd5971

RedorDead wrote:

Does your car get regular long motorway trips or is it confined mainly to urban driving? Id say 50-60% of diesel cars bought since 2008 werent actually needed and the driver would have been better suited driving petrol or alternative power but sure we all love the cheap tax!

No I have about a 2 hour commute roundtrip everyday for work and weekend I'd be all over the place. If anything my mileage is a bit on the high side of average.
Car is well taken care of too it's not ****ed about at all.

jelutong

Check out Autocar Magazine website. Article on the effect of software update on VW Touran Diesel fuel consumption. Test conducted at Milbank Testing Centre.

Kimbot

jcd5971 wrote: »

I can't believe I missed this thread EGR went in my 2011 Passat. Absolute nightmare to fix 3 weeks in garage parts replaced but they could not get the lights on dash to stay out.
They then came back saying it was the dpf filter causing it and it had to be regenerated ( whatever that meant I dunno).

So eventually car back cost well over a thousand to fix but at least it's working.
Fast forward 2 months get the letter for the update brought it in get it done,. And boom lights on dash again 😞.

Back to dealer they check it and insist it's fine just a faulty wire and to ignore it... Joke

Man forget about the dealer, if your still having issues bring it up to Daltons and get them to check it out. They should sort your issues out.

Kimbot

jelutong wrote: »

Check out Autocar Magazine website. Article on the effect of software update on VW Touran Diesel fuel consumption. Test conducted at Milbank Testing Centre.

Any chance of an ould summary?

knipex

jonnycivic wrote: »

Any chance of an ould summary?

NOx emissions Down almost 50%.

Fuel economy worse by 6.5%

GavMan

jonnycivic wrote: »

Any chance of an ould summary?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/autocar-test-shows-worse-economy-after-volkswagen-diesel-fix

Buffman

jelutong wrote: »

Check out Autocar Magazine website. Article on the effect of software update on VW Touran Diesel fuel consumption. Test conducted at Milbank Testing Centre.

Interesting article.

Autocar test shows worse economy after Volkswagen diesel fix

It revealed that while NOx emissions were almost halved from 0.639g/km pre-fix to 0.351g/km post-fix, our test car’s combined fuel economy had fallen from 50.72mpg to 47.61mpg. This means that its CO2 emissions increased from 147.3g/km to 156.9g/km, a change of 6.5%.

Basically what others have said already on this thread, you can't 'fix' NOx without effecting other things, it's not some sort of magic trick.

In total, three engines are being fixed in the UK by VW: 1.2, 1.6 and 2.0 versions of the EA189 engine. The number of different combinations of car, transmission, engine and so on comes to 750, meaning VW needed to come up with 750 different fixes.

This shows the possible reason some owners are reporting no problems, while others are. It's not a case of one 'fix' fits all, some models may be OK with their 'fix' and some may not.

Volkswagen's response to our test
“Volkswagen was not provided with sufficient information concerning the testing criteria nor an explanation of how such a cycle is representative of real-world driving.
................
- Despite VW’s claim, Autocar supplied all test details requested by the manufacturer.

The usual 'head in the sand' response from VAG. At this stage, if I was the owner of one of the affected vehicles, not only would I not be 'fixing' it, I'd be seriously considering getting rid of it quick before second hand values start get driven down by this.

joeysoap

My son bought a 2nd 1.9 Diesel Jetta from a VW dealer about 2 days before the sh**e hit the fan. (Obviously the dealer knew). But it didn't really bother him. He got the letter from VW to take the car in for fix, which he had carried out last week. Since then engine warning lights have come on 3 times. First time was on the M1 and (to cut story short) VW Swords couldn't find the fault. (Light was out when they towed the car to garage) gave him back the car.

After getting the car back the light came back on the next together with another warning light. That was yesterday.

Returned the car this morning to the original dealer and that dealer is now saying the problem has nothing to do with the fix and the problem is an EGR valve which will cost him €900 for the part alone.

I have googled this EGR thing and it's to do with exhaust gas recirculating back to the engine cylinders.

Just putting this out there for opinions. Has this anything or nothing to do with the fix? Car was perfect until the fix.

Thanks

Toyotafanboi

joeysoap wrote: »

(Obviously the dealer knew).

How is that obvious? I doubt staff at dealership level across the world were aware days before the scandal made the news.

Stallingrad

You'd want to be off your head to buy a second hand VW now, such a minefield.

Toyotafanboi

Stallingrad wrote: »

You'd want to be off your head to buy a second hand VW now, such a minefield.

You'd want to be off your head buying a second hand VW at all.

The "technical measure" is easily spotted. VW even have a website that helps you avoid it.

grogi

joeysoap wrote: »

Just putting this out there for opinions. Has this anything or nothing to do with the fix? Car was perfect until the fix.

Yes, it has a lot. By letting more exhaust gases back into the combustion chamber, the amount of emitted NOx is significantly reduced.

I can only speculate here - but TDI probably did not really use the EGR that much before the fix. After the fix the engine uses the EGR much more intensely to reduce NOx emissions. The valve was probably on its last legs, but it did not manifest, while the fix just stressed it beyond.

joeysoap

grogi wrote: »

Yes, it has a lot. By letting more exhaust gases back into the combustion chamber, the amount of emitted NOx is significantly reduced.

I can only speculate here - but TDI probably did not really use the EGR that much before the fix. After the fix the engine uses the EGR much more intensely to reduce NOx emissions. The valve was probably on its last legs, but it did not manifest, while the fix just stressed it beyond.

Thanks for reply. Car was left in for 6 monthly service and fix last week. (The car has been serviced every 6 months by the main dealer since new). The car is driven on the M1 4/5 times a week and the previous owner also commuted to Dublin daily, and a timing belt is also now due. But this was unexpected. Best course of action might be to ask VW for a deal?

Odyssey 2005

joeysoap wrote: »

My son bought a 2nd 1.9 Diesel Jetta from a VW dealer about 2 days before the sh**e hit the fan. (Obviously the dealer knew). But it didn't really bother him. He got the letter from VW to take the car in for fix, which he had carried out last week. Since then engine warning lights have come on 3 times. First time was on the M1 and (to cut story short) VW Swords couldn't find the fault. (Light was out when they towed the car to garage) gave him back the car.

After getting the car back the light came back on the next together with another warning light. That was yesterday.

Returned the car this morning to the original dealer and that dealer is now saying the problem has nothing to do with the fix and the problem is an EGR valve which will cost him €900 for the part alone.

I have googled this EGR thing and it's to do with exhaust gas recirculating back to the engine cylinders.

Just putting this out there for opinions. Has this anything or nothing to do with the fix? Car was perfect until the fix.

Thanks

I had the same problem with my car. High mileage,owned from new and meticulously maintained in a Skoda main dealers. Got the update done and Christmas came early...lights wise anyway .. Dealers took the car and after a few days said it was an exhaust sensor. They also said the fault was in the car before the update . There was no warning lights on so I'm sceptical about that one. Anyway Skoda met most of the repair bill but in my opinion they fuked up an excellent car as I have zero confidence in it and it is worth nothing now..

Toyotafanboi

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

it is worth nothing now..

What are you basing this on? The fact that it's a high miles or that it's had the update done?

jcd5971

I wonder do they even care about the loss of Goodwill this has caused, I've bought all vw cars with the exception of 1 ever. And I can categorically say with certainty that I'm never buying a Volkswagen ever again after this.

Odyssey 2005

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

What are you basing this on? The fact that it's a high miles or that it's had the update done?

Both 330k and an update = worthless. .if the update wasn't done I would have a different outlook.

Toyotafanboi

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Both 330k and an update = worthless. .if the update wasn't done I would have a different outlook.

More like 330k = worthless.

Do you honestly think it's value would rise noteably if the update was withheld? Put a figure on it, please.

knipex

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Both 330k and an update = worthless. .if the update wasn't done I would have a different outlook.

Sorry more like 330K plus dodgy ERG valve = worthless.

I have a golf with 260k up on it. No lights no issues, no ERG problems etc, no update and its still not worth a whole lot..

Sam Russell

knipex wrote: »

Sorry more like 330K plus dodgy ERG valve = worthless.

I have a golf with 260k up on it. No lights no issues, no ERG problems etc, no update and its still not worth a whole lot..

But you have no lights on and no need to get an EGR valve at a cost of upwards of €900. That is a whole lot better than that faced by JoeySoap's son whose Jetta suddenly developed expensive lights on on the dash after getting the update.

See post #265.

.

Odyssey 2005

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

More like 330k = worthless.

Do you honestly think it's value would rise noteably if the update was withheld? Put a figure on it, please.

Absolutely not...but I feel it would be a lot more saleable...not that I was even thinking of selling. It's driving like a car with80 k and looks it too. But the update causes problems with regard to saleability and for me with regard to confidence in the car..

Stallingrad

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

You'd want to be off your head buying a second hand VW at all.

The "technical measure" is easily spotted. VW even have a website that helps you avoid it.

Was looking at a UK one recently, could not get the VW.co.uk emisions checker to work, then found out that the Das Welt Warranty does not travel with the car so that was then end of that!

Toyotafanboi

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

the update causes problems with regard to saleability

Sorry to keeping harping on this, but how so?

Honestly I don't see anything to support this, anywhere? I know if a non VW dealer wants to beat a car down on price they use it as an excuse, but VAG diesels are consistently the best sellers in the country, regardless of this.

Diesel VW's locally seem to be selling as strong as ever from what I can see. Having a dickie EGR on the other hand will devalue the car a whole pile, but they were fond of those pre EmissionsGate and it didn't affect values then.

Maybe it should devalue them, but it the social aspect of the cheating didn't devalue them, the perceived "fix" definitely won't.

This is all speaking locally, of course. Worldwide may be a different story.

tonic wine

I will not buy a car that has had the update.  I'm in the market to buy one, but not one with the update.
I do alot of motorway miles per year and MPG in a diesel is important.  There is plenty of other options out there, why bother buy one with the update with the bad experiences some customers have had post this "fix".

dlmo

Just to add something contrary to experiences here...just my experiences, no science.

I've had the update done to both our cars (2012 A6 2.0 & 2011 1.6 Golf) both over 4 months ago - both have FSH with main dealers.

On the A6, no noticeable drop in power or economy - I don't drive it much but the OH has not noticed any difference.

In the Golf I do a 600Km round trip weekly (25% motorway) and before the update I would never get below 4.9 L/100Km, whereas I'm now getting as low as 4.4 consistently on the run. Same amount of crap in the car, same driving style. No adverse impact on performance - it's a 90Bhp so performance was always sh*te, and is no better or worse.

zilog_jones

dlmo wrote: »

In the Golf I do a 600Km round trip weekly (25% motorway) and before the update I would never get below 4.9 L/100Km, whereas I'm now getting as low as 4.4 consistently on the run. Same amount of crap in the car, same driving style.

Are you sure about that? 4 months ago was winter, so you're going to get worse fuel consumption anyway. And are you measuring fuel usage yourself, or going by the trip computer? Trip computers are not known for their accuracy (they're usually calculating fuel consumption based on airflow, not actual fuel flow), and VW are not exactly well known for making truthful software...

Seth Brundle

tonic wine wrote: »

I will not buy a car that has had the update.  I'm in the market to buy one, but not one with the update.

How would you know without proper confirmation?

MOTM

I'd a letter from VW to bring in my 2012 Passet 1.6TDI 105BHP in for the update. The car is running like clockwork and averages around 60mpg. I'm very wary of risking this.

The first letter I got was Jan 2017 saying the "technical measure will involve a software update to the engine management system". They sent me another letter in April 2017 saying "we should clarify that the technical measures will also involve the fitting of a flow transformer in front of the air mass sensor".

Doesn't exactly inspire confidence that the measure itself or the wording around it has changed in a few months. Good article on it here: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/25/vw-volkswagen-audi-skoda-seat-emissions-fix-left-car-undriveable

Anyone know if driving a VW without the update when an update is available from VW will impact on car insurance (i.e. if driving it without the update, is it considered a "modified vehicle" requiring possible change to insurance policy)?
...aside from the NOx emissions, I can't think of any other reason to jeopardise the car by doing this update.

joujoujou

MOTM wrote: »

[...]

Anyone know if driving a VW without the update when an update is available from VW will impact on car insurance (i.e. if driving it without the update, is it considered a "modified vehicle" requiring possible change to insurance policy)?
...aside from the NOx emissions, I can't think of any other reason to jeopardise the car by doing this update.

No, it's not. I'd rather say update could be considered a modified vehicle instead (in fact it's obviously not). Just don't update and if you're gonna visit dealers in the future and give them a car for even very minor and completely irrelevant issue do not forget to loudly and clearly state you don't want it to be updated.

grogi

joujoujou wrote: »

No, it's not. I'd rather say update could be considered a modified vehicle instead (in fact it's obviously not). Just don't update and if you're gonna visit dealers in the future and give them a car for even very minor and completely irrelevant issue do not forget to loudly and clearly state you don't want it to be updated.

It is the manufacturer that is bringing the car to the desired condition. Actively refusing the fix is like modifying it...

joujoujou

grogi wrote: »

[...] Actively refusing the fix is like modifying it...

Not modifying is modifying? :eek:

MOTM

grogi wrote: »

It is the manufacturer that is bringing the car to the desired condition. Actively refusing the fix is like modifying it...

Can anyone confirm that an insurance company has raised this as an issue? I've talked to 2 separate mechanics (neither are VW) and one said he wouldn't go near the update, the other said the only reason he can think of is that an insurance company might say you're not covered if you didn't do the update. He'd no proof to back it up though.

I'm nearly afraid to ask my insurance company as I won't want to be railroaded into taking on the upgrade.

Gwynston

I can't imagine how this would even be an issue for insurance?

Surely it's classified as maintenance/repair work? You don't need to tell the insurance company when you get a new exhaust, or even a completely new engine!

mikeecho

I think everyone that wants an update, or wants their vw to be eco, should get the update.. if they don't like it, get it remapped, back to an original map.

And yes... pay for it out of your own pocket.

Otherwise.. leave it as is.

zilog_jones

mikeecho wrote: »

I think everyone that ... wants their vw to be eco, should get the update..

There is evidence it increases fuel consumption, and makes no difference with emissions in real world driving (they're only obliged to fix it for the test cycles) - so I would suggest nobody does the update.

Toyotafanboi

Did the AutoCar independent test not go to prove that Nox was notably reduced after the update?

zilog_jones

But that was just a test on a rolling road, no?

Toyotafanboi

No it was "real world" one one of the UK circuits iirc.

grogi

zilog_jones wrote: »

But that was just a test on a rolling road, no?

Even if it was, it would be outside of NEDC spec - so the car wouldn't know...

Anyway - you said 'there is evidence ... (the fix) makes no difference with emissions in real world driving'. Is there? Mind sharing the sources?

zilog_jones

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

No it was "real world" one one of the UK circuits iirc.

It was done on a rolling road at Millbrook Proving Ground, not on the roads. See here: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/autocar-test-shows-worse-economy-after-volkswagen-diesel-fix

grogi wrote: »

Even if it was, it would be outside of NEDC spec - so the car wouldn't know...

Well no - they have to get rid of the "cheat device" aspect of the software, so it needs to pass the test in a much less blatantly cheating way than before, i.e. it shouldn't "know" when it's performing an NEDC cycle. So a similar rolling road test (Autocar weren't specific on their test cycle) could also result in similarly favourable results.

Anyway - you said 'there is evidence ... (the fix) makes no difference with emissions in real world driving'. Is there? Mind sharing the sources?

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/vw-diesel-update-amarok-leistung-gleich-gut-verbrauch-leicht-erhoeht-10551733.html (use Google Translate)
They did emissions tests on the road and saw no appreciable difference with NOx emissions. If fuel consumption is going up, then CO2 emissions has to be increasing.

Of course, in both cases these are magazines testing just one type of car - far from definitive conclusions, and not necessarily unbiased sources.

grogi

zilog_jones wrote: »

They did emissions tests on the road and saw no appreciable difference with NOx emissions. If fuel consumption is going up, then CO2 emissions has to be increasing.

CO₂ has nothing to do with NOₓ. Typically the relationship is reverse - if you pump more fuel thus increasing CO₂, the emission of NOₓ decreases because the combustion temperature decreases.

I don't need to translate to understand the findings of auto-motor-und-sport. However methodology of the test is not revealed, it is hard to argue with it without any way to reproduce the experiment.

Of course, in both cases these are magazines testing just one type of car - far from definitive conclusions, and not necessarily unbiased sources.

When did magazines become unbiased source of information? ;-)

zilog_jones

grogi wrote: »

CO₂ has nothing to do with NOₓ. Typically the relationship is reverse - if you pump more fuel thus increasing CO₂, the emission of NOₓ decreases because the combustion temperature decreases.

I didn't say NOx had a direct correlation with CO2 - I said increased fuel consumption will mean increased CO2 emissions, but they noticed no significant change in NOx emissions.

Of course magazines are biased, I was being polite

joeysoap

Update; VW denying that the fix had anything to do with the EGR going faulty but they agreed to replace the EGR for €150 with a 2 year guarantee.

zilog_jones

It's good they're doing goodwill on these EGR valve replacements (was the car out of warranty?), but I have my suspicions that they know more about these failures than they're willing to tell you...

Gwynston

joeysoap wrote: »

Update; VW denying that the fix had anything to do with the EGR going faulty but they agreed to replace the EGR for €150 with a 2 year guarantee.

That's precisely what happened with our 2011 Golf when the EGR went 6 weeks after the recall.

benny79

I wouldnt be given them a penny and insisting they do it foc with warranty!