Allocate 4 Cycling Protest Department of Transport 22nd February 1pm

what_traffic

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

https://www.todayfm.com/The-Last-Word-with-Matt-Cooper

THE LAST WORD WITH MATT COOPER - WIDENING THE GAP BETWEEN MOTORISTS AND CYCLISTS

I thought it was a really good discussion, a refreshing change from Geoge Hook, Pat Kenny et al. Ciaran Cannon was excellent at explaining the thinking behind the Bill and good support from Damien O Tuama of cyclist.ie. the third guest from Institute of Advanced Motorists was ok but strayed off the point a bit.

Cannon is a cyclist so not at all surprised he gets it.

Corca Baiscinn

what_traffic wrote: »

Cannon is a sports cyclist so not at all surprised he gets it.

Yes but he said on Sean O' Rourke yesterday that he commutes along the quays every day so a utility cyclist too. He mentioned at the start of the programme getting a close pass from a bus while he was cycling in the cycle lane in Donneybrook and Sean O' Rourke's bright response was dont argue with a bus! In fact almost all of O' Rourke's comments were inane, quite disappointing as there ae enough cyclist-bashing media hacks out there already.

tomasrojo

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

In fact almost all of O' Rourke's comments were inane

I don't voluntarily listen to his show, but I've overheard bits over the few years it's been on, and I found his comments on walking or cycling inane. Might be just a statistical fluke that the few comments I've heard him make on active travel have been inane.

ED E

He's normally pretty balanced but on this he was just a pr1ck. Clearly got a very motorist centric mentality.


I really wish AGS would check a few of the rogue cyclists, possibly stop brewing this angst against us. Eejit today on SCR didnt know he had right of way and held everything up....

Shedite27

Deedsie wrote: »

I got the bus home last night, was at a show. Waiting for a bus on Nassau street at 22:00 and two cyclists go past, no lights, (no helmets, hivis)... storm Doris blowing hard.

I was praying AGS would catch them and fine them. Like it or lump it all cyclists are thrown in together and these type of people give us a bad name

That's the thing that annoys me most about the cyclist V drivers debate, there seems to be a lot more bad apples among cyclists that give the genuine ones of us a bad name. Enough cyclist break red lights, cycle on pavements etc to make us all look bad to the motorists. Each on their own is not much of a big deal, but when it all adds up, I can see why motorists get annoyed with cyclists.

Obviously there are plenty of motorists that drive recklessly behind cyclists too.

tomasrojo

The problem, without wishing to open those two particular cans of worms too much, is that I'm a pretty considerate and experienced road user who doesn't use hiviz(*) or helmets. I don't think I'm wandering around giving anyone a bad name.

(*)Unless you count a repurposed Sam Browne, turned into a belt to hold my satchel closed.

tomasrojo

Oh yeah, I'm not trying to argue against them, per se. It's just that eschewing those two things sometimes gets thrown in with not having lights and flouting traffic rules, when they're quite a separate issue.

what_traffic

Shedite27 wrote: »

That's the thing that annoys me most about the cyclist V drivers debate, there seems to be a lot more bad apples among cyclists that give the genuine ones of us a bad name.

I'm afraid this just does not stack up. If one looks at AGS arrests on any given week in any given year over the last 10 years in relation to road traffic offences its clear its not people who cycle who are getting done for offences. People who cycle are in the minority in IRE at this moment in time, so any debate will always have this within its context.

Shedite27

what_traffic wrote: »

I'm afraid this just does not stack up. If one looks at AGS arrests on any given week in any given year over the last 10 years in relation to road traffic offences its clear its not people who cycle who are getting done for offences. People who cycle are in the minority in IRE at this moment in time, so any debate will always have this within its context.

I'm not talking about arrests, I'm talking about the 5 lads I see rolling through a red light while I wait for the green every morning.

They obviously don't get arrested but that's irrelevant to the perception it gives off. It's easy to see why drivers get upset.

Shedite27

Shedite27 wrote: »

That's the thing that annoys me most about the cyclist V drivers debate, there seems to be a lot more bad apples among cyclists that give the genuine ones of us a bad name. Enough cyclist break red lights, cycle on pavements etc to make us all look bad to the motorists. Each on their own is not much of a big deal, but when it all adds up, I can see why motorists get annoyed with cyclists.

Obviously there are plenty of motorists that drive recklessly behind cyclists too.

It's an argument that goes nowhere. We won't accept any changes until you get your house in order sort of thing.

There will be always be rogue cyclists. Why are cyclists expected to collectively answer for the bad behavior when motorists are not?

This sort of nasal gazing by cyclists does not help matters.

what_traffic

Shedite27 wrote: »

I'm not talking about arrests, I'm talking about the 5 lads I see rolling through a red light while I wait for the green every morning.

They obviously don't get arrested but that's irrelevant to the perception it gives off. It's easy to see why drivers get upset.

I actually see more people who drives cars breaking red traffic lights in Galway City when I am cycling or when I am driving, compared to people who cycle doing the same thing. Probably just down to the sheer numbers of both modes.
Do I get more upset? No. What I do know though is the consequences of this will always be far far greater for vulnerable road users in comparison with people who cycle(or walk) who do the very same thing. Perception can be fools gold.

tomasrojo

ronoc wrote: »

This sort of nasal gazing by cyclists does not help matters.

I love this combination of ruminating self-obsession and condescension (looking down your nose).

tomasrojo

tomasrojo wrote: »

I love this combination of ruminating self-obsession and condescension (looking down your nose).

Call me cynical, but in a topic about a movement to promote cycling safety there are lots of flyby posts by people claiming to be cyclists who just spend their time complaining about other cyclists.

tomasrojo

Oh, they're real cyclists alright (the last few anyway). Good contributors here, from what I recall too.

I agree about the "get our house in order" trope though. We won't get anywhere waiting for everyone to be an angel, and it's not what other people seeking help from the public purse face.

average_runner

Effects wrote: »

What junction is that?

Westmorland St, O'Connell Bridge, Junction to D'olier St.

Or even the other side also.

Deedsie

Deedsie wrote: »

You are cynical...

And you don't know what you are talking about, I am a positive contributor to this forum and a dedicated cyclist. I have no problem highlighting poor cycling behaviour.

It is head wrecking seeing morons cycle through red lights, pedestrian crossings and pedestrian areas.

It wasn't my intention to single you or anyone else out. My point, perhaps clumsily made, was that the aim of the allocate for cycling protests is to improve cycling facilities and spending on cycling infrastructure. Pointing out the worst aspects of cycling in the city doesn't help, it just gives fuel to the George Hook brigade.

Deedsie

Deedsie wrote: »

By sticking our heads in the sand to assholery. Sorry not the way I choose to conduct myself. If I see wrong I'll say it.

Do you plan to attend any of these protests?

Shedite27

Lets all post our Strave profiles to prove we're real cyclists!

My post earlier wasn't taking either side of the argument, I was just saying it's very frustrating trying to be a law abiding cyclist and seeing so many that don't. I end up getting labelled as "one of those that doesn't stop at red lights".

It's nothing that can be answered here, I'm pretty sure everyone on a cycling forum is law abiding (meaning rules of the road, not high viz brake pads).

AndrewJRenko

average_runner wrote: »

Westmorland St, O'Connell Bridge, Junction to D'olier St.

Or even the other side also.

It's possibly too busy at that junction to be able to give out leaflets there safely. Feel free to contact the campaign on their FB page if you're interested in the reasons. You'll see the photos there of the volunteers leafleting at many other junctions in town over the 2 weeks prior to the protest. And there were many more people/venues leafleting that are not listed on the FB page.

That's if you're really interested in the leafleting programme, and not just looking for things to have a whinge about.

Shedite27 wrote: »

That's the thing that annoys me most about the cyclist V drivers debate, there seems to be a lot more bad apples among cyclists that give the genuine ones of us a bad name. Enough cyclist break red lights, cycle on pavements etc to make us all look bad to the motorists. Each on their own is not much of a big deal, but when it all adds up, I can see why motorists get annoyed with cyclists.

Obviously there are plenty of motorists that drive recklessly behind cyclists too.

Do the motorists who break lights all the time make all motorists look bad to cyclists and pedestrians?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc5VGuJvOVk

MediaMan

I'm going to try to argue both sides of this point in one post...

Even if the entire cycling population were to cycle around breaking red lights, that is no reason to either withhold resources from cycling infrastructure or to not obey the rules of the road around cyclists. People who conflate these things are not thinking logically. Resources should be provided and people should drive and cycle safely. AND, red light breaking (and other traffic offences) should be detected and prosecuted.

On the other hand...

If a majority of cyclists routinely pass through red lights, whether dangerously or not, then people are going to conclude that cyclists are a bunch of law-breakers. They may even go on to conclude that they don't deserve respect on the road. This is wrong thinking, but understandable.

Again, detection and prosecution (or a fixed penalty fine) are needed here, and I woudl love to see it, but I'm sure the Gardai themselves will say that they are too busy elsewhere.

Education also has a big role to play. I didn't think that cycling through a red light at a quiet junction was a bad thing until I started frequenting this forum about 7 years ago. A lot of cyclists similarly believe it's not a bad thing, as if they are pedestrians that just happen to have some wheels, and they need to be educated on this topic.

what_traffic

Shedite27 wrote: »

My post earlier wasn't taking either side of the argument, I was just saying it's very frustrating trying to be a law abiding cyclist and seeing so many that don't. I end up getting labelled as "one of those that doesn't stop at red lights".

Is this more with self identity? You identify yourself as a cyclist?
I know what you mean by frustration but this is outside your direct control.

I drive a car and I cycle a bike. I use the bike far more regularly. I do not identify myself as a motorist or a cyclist. However people do label me in my workplace as a cyclist even though I tell them I am only a person who cycles a bike. People was always going to label others in a general manner. We can only be responsible for our own actions but by doing so we can affect those around us.

You will always see the person who breaks the red light in a car or a bike but you can become blind to the other 10 cars/bikes that obey the traffic lights after they have passed through the junction.

AndrewJRenko

MediaMan wrote: »

On the other hand...

If a majority of cyclists routinely pass through red lights, whether dangerously or not, then people are going to conclude that cyclists are a bunch of law-breakers. They may even go on to conclude that they don't deserve respect on the road. This is wrong thinking, but understandable.

It's not understandable at all that most of those who give out about cyclists breaking red lights will routinely break speed limits on every feckin car journey.

Sheer hypocrisy.

Corca Baiscinn

Deedsie wrote: »

By sticking our heads in the sand to assholery. Sorry not the way I choose to conduct myself. If I see wrong I'll say it.

I think its legitimate to separate the two issues of behaviour versus entitlement to be able to cycle safely, whether that is by way of infrastructure, enforcement or whatever. What Media Man says is true, motorists do label us all as a unit of "bloody cyclists". But I'm not sure if we should accept this label. We don't decline to build motorways because some motorists break the speed limit, drive while drunk or text while driving. We don't mutter "bloody motorists" every time we observe one breaking a red light.
I'm all in favour of enforcement of the rules of the road. It's dreadful that people can be intimidated by loutish cyclists but I don't have to take responsibility for their loutish behaviour unless they are my children and I shouldn't be deprived of a cycle lane or some other facility that would enhance my safety because of them