4-5 hour Training Spins

JK.BMC

Just looking for some guidance here. I have been cycling/training etc for many years, more focused in the last 10 or so. I have a fair idea of the various parameters and metrics of training effort/performance etc. What I want to know at this stage however, is the following: why would a cyclist train at the weekend for 4 or 5 hours if the typical race duration distance is significantly less than that?
I'm thinking of many A4 and even A3 riders, plus club riders, which make up the vast percentage of racing cyclists in Ireland, whose road race distances are typically between 50-80 km and rarely last more than 2 hours.
I'm well aware of the benefits of endurance etc but surely some of this time on the road is pointless, especially in baltic cold winds or miserable Irish rain.
If doing the Easter stage races, then yes, longer rides are needed. But why would anybody else do them, other than to clock up 'hours' and, God help us all, acquire 'Kudos' .....

So- can of worms crawling around. Wondering what the feeling is out there

Grassey

I enjoy being on the bike.
4 or 5 hours to myself on a Sunday morning to relax after doing more focused training Mon - Fri is a bliss.
Peace, quiet, being outdoors, no phones, exploring new routes etc
If I could sneak in more than 4 hours I gladly would!

1bryan

JK.BMC wrote: »

Just looking for some guidance here. I have been cycling/training etc for many years, more focused in the last 10 or so. I have a fair idea of the various parameters and metrics of training effort/performance etc. What I want to know at this stage however, is the following: why would a cyclist train at the weekend for 4 or 5 hours if the typical race duration distance is significantly less than that?
I'm thinking of many A4 and even A3 riders, plus club riders, which make up the vast percentage of racing cyclists in Ireland, whose road race distances are typically between 50-80 km and rarely last more than 2 hours.
I'm well aware of the benefits of endurance etc but surely some of this time on the road is pointless, especially in baltic cold winds or miserable Irish rain.
If doing the Easter stage races, then yes, longer rides are needed. But why would anybody else do them, other than to clock up 'hours' and, God help us all, acquire 'Kudos' .....

So- can of worms crawling around. Wondering what the feeling is out there

there's no reason for it, and the question definitely begs asking.

you can do 'base' miles a good ways out from the start of race season, but really the focus needs to transition to shorter, burstier efforts, to actually work your muscles in the same fashion they'll work in a race.

It's the same principle in any sport. Soccer, gah, etc, do your base miles when you're miles away from a game. But the focus has to switch moreso to fast-twitch muscles closer to the season.

And you answered your own question. It's all about the kudos!

I enjoy a long spin as much/little as the next person but if you asked me for an actual training benefit, other than 'weight loss', I'd struggle to name you one.

JK.BMC

Grassey wrote: »

I enjoy being on the bike.
4 or 5 hours to myself on a Sunday morning to relax after doing more focused training Mon - Fri is a bliss.
Peace, quiet, being outdoors, no phones, exploring new routes etc
If I could sneak in more than 4 hours I gladly would!

Very good.
Sounds like you are training for audax?
8-9 hours in winter sounds pretty tough

Arthurdaly

The bigger the base the bigger the peak or so they say. Id agree its uneccessary for a4/a3 racing but in many cases riders are putting down big miles to compensate for excess over the winter/christmas.

I have a mate who races vets and will do 130km spins every saturday morning. He doesnt neccessarily do it for the training benefit, he does it because he loves being out on his bike for long adventures.

Will you be in better condition for a3 races doing 240km each weekend or 120km during the winter? The top a3's who graduate to a2/a1 are most likely on the high milage side.

DKmac

I could be way off here but I believe that base miles are essential in developing your lactate curve i.e. the rate at which your body reaches its lactate threshold. Without a decent base you will spike to your lactate threshold much quicker so training only with short intense efforts, although it may increase your threshold and capacity to work at and over threshold, it won't do anything for the rate at which you hit that threshold.

I trained predominantly with short sharp sessions and got tested towards the end of last year. I could hold threshold and above quite well but I was hitting my threshold too quickly. I needed to train my base to slow the rate of increase in my HR reaching my LTHR

nilhg

JK.BMC wrote: »

Just looking for some guidance here. I have been cycling/training etc for many years, more focused in the last 10 or so. I have a fair idea of the various parameters and metrics of training effort/performance etc. What I want to know at this stage however, is the following: why would a cyclist train at the weekend for 4 or 5 hours if the typical race duration distance is significantly less than that?
I'm thinking of many A4 and even A3 riders, plus club riders, which make up the vast percentage of racing cyclists in Ireland, whose road race distances are typically between 50-80 km and rarely last more than 2 hours.
I'm well aware of the benefits of endurance etc but surely some of this time on the road is pointless, especially in baltic cold winds or miserable Irish rain.
If doing the Easter stage races, then yes, longer rides are needed. But why would anybody else do them, other than to clock up 'hours' and, God help us all, acquire 'Kudos' .....

So- can of worms crawling around. Wondering what the feeling is out there

For me it would have started the other way round, I took up the racing (club league) as training for the long spins, to be fair I get a great buzz from the Thursday evening races but would have to say that the long stuff is my first love still

nordicb

Drawing a parallel with rowing, athletes do 200km a week throughout the year to race 2km on the day.
The body of this volume is steady state UT2 training.

tunney

JK.BMC wrote: »

Just looking for some guidance here. I have been cycling/training etc for many years, more focused in the last 10 or so. I have a fair idea of the various parameters and metrics of training effort/performance etc. What I want to know at this stage however, is the following: why would a cyclist train at the weekend for 4 or 5 hours if the typical race duration distance is significantly less than that?
I'm thinking of many A4 and even A3 riders, plus club riders, which make up the vast percentage of racing cyclists in Ireland, whose road race distances are typically between 50-80 km and rarely last more than 2 hours.
I'm well aware of the benefits of endurance etc but surely some of this time on the road is pointless, especially in baltic cold winds or miserable Irish rain.
If doing the Easter stage races, then yes, longer rides are needed. But why would anybody else do them, other than to clock up 'hours' and, God help us all, acquire 'Kudos' .....

So- can of worms crawling around. Wondering what the feeling is out there

mens sana in corpore sano

iwillhtfu

You seem to have lost the enjoyment that goes hand in hand with cycling.

I'd also guess 80% of those in A4/A3 you speak of never have and probably never will win but still they take part.

Chips Lovell

Base....base...base

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfeyUGZt8nk

JK.BMC

iwillhtfu wrote: »

You seem to have lost the enjoyment that goes hand in hand with cycling.

I'd also guess 80% of those in A4/A3 you speak of never have and probably never will win but still they take part.

Not at all. I love cycling. Not sure what you mean here?
And I'm not referring to 'winning' but rather the efficient use of time while training. Some of us don't really have the time to ride for 4-5 hours in lashing rain/cold, especially if it isn't beneficial.

iwillhtfu

JK.BMC wrote: »

Not at all. I love cycling. Not sure what you mean here?
And I'm not referring to 'winning' but rather the efficient use of time while training. Some of us don't really have the time to ride for 4-5 hours in lashing rain/cold, especially if it isn't beneficial.

It builds character. There's a good chance it'll be raining when you're racing

JK.BMC

tunney wrote: »

mens sana in corpore sano

Thanks! But I missed those Latin classes back in the day. Would proficiency in Latin help me ride faster?
In fairness, I know lots who like the free time away from kids/stress/work etc but that's not the question I'm asking

JK.BMC

iwillhtfu wrote: »

It builds character. There's a good chance it'll be raining when you're racing

My first open race was in a blizzard- 100% true.
Did the 2013 Des Hanlon in -5C and my left foot nearly froze solid. Ras Mayo last year was epic; loved the atrocious weather actually.
And so on etc etc. Yes, weather is typically sh1te when races take place in Ireland. I'm wondering do I need 4-5 hours of suffering in order to manage about 2 hours in a race though.

tunney

JK.BMC wrote: »

Thanks! But I missed those Latin classes back in the day. Would proficiency in Latin help me ride faster?
In fairness, I know lots who like the free time away from kids/stress/work etc but that's not the question I'm asking

I was also being nice as you clearly are sorta clueless

JK.BMC wrote: »

I have a fair idea of the various parameters and metrics of training effort/performance etc.

Quite obviously not.

JK.BMC wrote: »

What I want to know at this stage however, is the following: why would a cyclist train at the weekend for 4 or 5 hours if the typical race duration distance is significantly less than that?

have you read even the basics of training approaches? anything about energy systems, capillarization, blood plasma volumes? Rhetorical question.

JK.BMC wrote: »

I'm well aware of the benefits of endurance etc

Clearly not

Chips Lovell

There's lots of things to consider here:

1. Some people are doing races more than four hours long.
2. Some people just enjoy a long spin at the weekend and aren't too fussed if it's more miles than they really need to be doing.
3. Some people reckon decent base miles are a good foundation for more intense training closer to the start of the season.
4. A club spin is in no way comparable to race in terms of intensity. Even the most undisciplined club spin, full of mickey measurers and half-wheelers, is still a bit more relaxed than your average race. It's apples and oranges, so you can't really say I never race for more than two hours so I shouldn't do any spins longer than that.

dahat

I have been following a Trainer Road training winter with a Sunday Club Spin of 3-4 hrs at steady pace.

I'm heading into A4 for the first time and I didn't have the willingness or time to follow a traditional base winter plan and after some research tried a higher intensity plan called Sweet Spot from TR.

It remains to be seen if this is a better solution than the traditional route but as I'm time crunched midweek this suited me better. I guess whatever time you can allow for training dictates what way you go about a training plan.

JK.BMC

dahat wrote: »

I have been following a Trainer Road training winter with a Sunday Club Spin of 3-4 hrs at steady pace.

I'm heading into A4 for the first time and I didn't have the willingness or time to follow a traditional base winter plan and after some research tried a higher intensity plan called Sweet Spot from TR.

It remains to be seen if this is a better solution than the traditional route but as I'm time crunched midweek this suited me better. I guess whatever time you can allow for training dictates what way you go about a training plan.

That is very interesting; thanks. I'm interested to see how it works out for you; so best of luck

dahat

JK.BMC wrote: »

That is very interesting; thanks. I'm interested to see how it works out for you; so best of luck

I'm also old n a fat cyclist so no training plan could get me a place in A4 but I love the training!.

JK.BMC

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

There's lots of things to consider here:

1. Some people are doing races more than four hours long.
2. Some people just enjoy a long spin at the weekend and aren't too fussed if it's more miles than they really need to be doing.
3. Some people reckon decent base miles are a good foundation for more intense training closer to the start of the season.
4. A club spin is in no way comparable to race in terms of intensity. Even the most undisciplined club spin, full of mickey measurers and half-wheelers, is still a bit more relaxed than your average race. It's apples and oranges, so you can't really say I never race for more than two hours so I shouldn't do any spins longer than that.

Yes- I think no.2 in particular above is perfectly understandable; I like the company of a good group for a long spin, especially in nice weather and at a steady clip

JK.BMC

tunney wrote: »

I was also being nice as you clearly are sorta clueless



Quite obviously not.


have you read even the basics of training approaches? anything about energy systems, capillarization, blood plasma volumes? Rhetorical question.


Clearly not

Ok- I'm fairly stupid you say.

Are you a cycling coach? Or simply, do you have any insights worth sharing with regard to my question, as it is one that various people have been chatting to me about lately.
Thanks in advance

iwillhtfu

JK.BMC wrote: »

Ok- I'm fairly stupid you say.

Are you a cycling coach? Or simply, do you have any insights worth sharing with regard to my question, as it is one that various people have been chatting to me about lately.
Thanks in advance

He can be thorny but he knows his stuff and he's certainly not backward about going forwards if ya get me

JK.BMC

iwillhtfu wrote: »

He can be thorny but he knows his stuff and he's certainly not backward about going forwards if ya get me [/quote

And a Latin scholar to boot!

harringtonp

iwillhtfu wrote: »

It builds character. There's a good chance it'll be raining when you're racing

yes but other than knowing what cycling in the rain is all about, its not something you need to practice.

Chuchote

αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν?

And furthermore, τί εὔκολον; Τὸ ἄλλῳ ὑποτίθεσθαι.

PowerToWait

DKmac wrote: »

I trained predominantly with short sharp sessions and got tested towards the end of last year. I could hold threshold and above quite well but I was hitting my threshold too quickly. I needed to train my base to slow the rate of increase in my HR reaching my LTHR

Spot on. Despite the big push by certain coaching companies of 'get super quick off less than 8 hours training a week, follow the system for time crunched athletes', there's just no getting away from the LSD if you really want to motor.

JK.BMC

PowerToWait wrote: »

Spot on. Despite the big push by certain coaching companies of 'get super quick off less than 8 hours training a week, follow the system for time crunched athletes', there's just no getting away from the LSD if you really want to motor.

Ah finally! This is the real issue I'm interested in. The jury is out on this whole issue and I'm wondering what various riders think. I'm not enamoured by pointless riding in sh1te weather but surely an aerobic base is needed which must entail long slow rides of some sort.

harringtonp

JK.BMC wrote: »

My first open race was in a blizzard- 100% true.
Did the 2013 Des Hanlon in -5C and my left foot nearly froze solid. Ras Mayo last year was epic; loved the atrocious weather actually.
And so on etc etc. Yes, weather is typically sh1te when races take place in Ireland. I'm wondering do I need 4-5 hours of suffering in order to manage about 2 hours in a race though.

I think you know you don't, in fact it can be detrimental if you have hard turbo sessions lined up for Tues/Thurs the following week.

I usually focus on short and sharp but over xmas/new year I had time opportunities and did two 5 day blocks of training. Both started with a turbo session and then 4 days of 2-3 hours top end Z2 middle of the day spins. Weather was kind but it was training and like you say I didn't see the point of doing any more than 3 hrs max.

You doing Ras Mhaigh Eo again this year ? I'm the guy to whom your wife gave your spare wheel on the Sunday :-)

dahat

harringtonp wrote: »

I think you know you don't, in fact it can be detrimental if you have hard turbo sessions lined up for Tues/Thurs the following week.

I usually focus on short and sharp but over xmas/new year I had time opportunities and did two 5 day blocks of training. Both started with a turbo session and then 4 days of 2-3 hours top end Z2 middle of the day spins. Weather was kind but it was training and like you say I didn't see the point of doing any more than 3 hrs max.

You doing Ras Mhaigh Eo again this year ? I'm the guy to whom your wife gave your spare wheel on the Sunday :-)

How have you found short and sharp over a season? I'm doing max 1.5hr sessions x 3with a road spin on Sunday and curious to see how it works out.
Older lads are telling me I'll blow up in May as Im doing too intense sessions for this time of year.

harringtonp

dahat wrote: »

How have you found short and sharp over a season? I'm doing max 1.5hr sessions x 3with a road spin on Sunday and curious to see how it works out.
Older lads are telling me I'll blow up in May as Im doing too intense sessions for this time of year.

They're wrong. You won't blow up if you keep the Sunday session to 3 hours mostly in Z2 and manage the short sessions so that you are fully recovered when they come around. You may need to take a "handy week" every 3-4 weeks where you drop 1 or 2 sessions.

And come the summer you can always take a month where you largely abandon the structure but still ride quite a lot. This is great for recharging mentally.