4-5 hour Training Spins

harringtonp

JK.BMC wrote: »

Ah finally! This is the real issue I'm interested in. The jury is out on this whole issue and I'm wondering what various riders think. I'm not enamoured by pointless riding in sh1te weather but surely an aerobic base is needed which must entail long slow rides of some sort.

My own feeling is that to build this aerobic base properly you need to be cycling at 65%-75% of your FTP. This requires a fair bit of concentration for 2-3 hours. I'd guess that very few do it for 4-5 hours.

dahat

harringtonp wrote: »

They're wrong. You won't blow up if you keep the Sunday session to 3 hours mostly in Z2 and manage the short sessions so that you are fully recovered when they come around. You may need to take a "handy week" every 3-4 weeks where you drop 1 or 2 sessions.

And come the summer you can always take a month where you largely abandon the structure but still ride quite a lot. This is great for recharging mentally.

There is handy weeks built into the TR plan so I'm good that way. The Sunday spin can get a bit intense at the end with lads including myself getting giddy but it's generally steady.

Sunday just gone I had 2hrs 28 in Z2 with 6min Z3 and 39mins Z4, not too bad I guess?

Monday is always rest day so this helps as the TR programme starts on Tuesday morning mostly.

Macy0161

dahat wrote: »

I have been following a Trainer Road training winter with a Sunday Club Spin of 3-4 hrs at steady pace.

I'm heading into A4 for the first time and I didn't have the willingness or time to follow a traditional base winter plan and after some research tried a higher intensity plan called Sweet Spot from TR.

It remains to be seen if this is a better solution than the traditional route but as I'm time crunched midweek this suited me better. I guess whatever time you can allow for training dictates what way you go about a training plan.

TrainerRoad are adjusting some of the plans away from the longer "endurance" weekend sessions to shorter more intense ones too. I think they're still a couple of hours long, and their rule of thumb is that an hour on the turbo is equivalent to an hour and half outside.

Anyway, they've discussed it in the last few podcasts - isn't relevant to the plans I'm following, but might be worth a listen. They definitely push their sweet spot base plans over the traditional base plan, which is the longer less intense plan.

dahat

Macy0161 wrote: »

TrainerRoad are adjusting some of the plans away from the longer "endurance" weekend sessions to shorter more intense ones too. I think they're still a couple of hours long, and their rule of thumb is that an hour on the turbo is equivalent to an hour and half outside.

Anyway, they've discussed it in the last few podcasts - isn't relevant to the plans I'm following, but might be worth a listen. They definitely push their sweet spot base plans over the traditional base plan, which is the longer less intense plan.

It's the Sweet Spot I'm following ATM, mid volume which is still time intense.

I'll have a listen to those podcasts over the weekend.

JK.BMC

harringtonp wrote: »

I think you know you don't, in fact it can be detrimental if you have hard turbo sessions lined up for Tues/Thurs the following week.

I usually focus on short and sharp but over xmas/new year I had time opportunities and did two 5 day blocks of training. Both started with a turbo session and then 4 days of 2-3 hours top end Z2 middle of the day spins. Weather was kind but it was training and like you say I didn't see the point of doing any more than 3 hrs max.

You doing Ras Mhaigh Eo again this year ? I'm the guy to whom your wife gave your spare wheel on the Sunday :-)

Unfortunately I can't make Mayo; it's a fantastic race all the same. Yes- I reckon that keeping it mostly in zone 2 for the equivalent race-specific duration should bring about improvement, provided that there it is backed up by harder sessions in the weekly training schedule. 3 hrs non-stop is probably the maximum length that I would prefer from a training point of view for A3/A4

PowerToWait

Macy0161 wrote: »

and their rule of thumb is that an hour on the turbo is equivalent to an hour and half outside.

That seems high to me. I'd thought around a 1 to 1hr 15 ratio. How would you go about adjusting that for TP for example? Or would you even need to? I'm doing most mine indoors including up to 3 hours. Which is not easy.

Wishbone Ash

JK.BMC wrote: »

.... but surely some of this time on the road is pointless, especially in baltic cold winds or miserable Irish rain...

1bryan

harringtonp wrote: »

This is great for recharging mentally.

that's the first mention anywhere in this thread of the mental side of things. While there's an undoubted need for building physical fitness, I'm sure we all know there's a point, beyond which, the enjoyment goes. I'm sure we've all been there and I'm sure we all know how unpleasant it is.

Convincing yourself of the need to be doing 4-5 hour spins regularly this time of year, is one sure way to fall out of love with the bike.

If you're mentally strong enough for that not to affect you, good for you, but plenty aren't.

I cycle 6 days a week but 5 of those days are a commute of ~45mins each way. I can tolerate even the worst kind of weather, because I know it's only a short effort. I remember reading an article about Eoin Morton's Ras training last year, about how he was doing 3 hours on some of those mornings I could barely manage 45 minutes (and another 2-3 in the evening), and thinking how it just would not be enjoyable, given how harsh some of those days were.

But then I guess that's why I'll never ride the Ras!

Macy0161

PowerToWait wrote: »

That seems high to me. I'd thought around a 1 to 1hr 15 ratio. How would you go about adjusting that for TP for example? Or would you even need to? I'm doing most mine indoors including up to 3 hours. Which is not easy.

I actually looked it up - they give a range of 1.3-1.7 times, so you weren't far off! http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/204265814-Outdoor-Workout-Substitutions-Q-A

I definitely find there's more breaks/ more freewheeling etc on the road even on a solo spin (never mind group) compared to a turbo session.

All things being equal I like to get out on a Saturday with my club, for the 3-3.5 hour spin, as there's other reasons rather than purely on training I like to get out on the bike!

ford2600

Are you one of these lads OP? https://goo.gl/QMX2XV

"especially in baltic cold winds or miserable Irish rain

8-9 hours in winter sounds pretty tough

for 4-5 hours in lashing rain/cold, especially if it isn't beneficial.

I'm wondering do I need 4-5 hours of suffering

I'm not enamoured by pointless riding in sh1te weather"

Assuming you have an appropriate bike and clothing maybe a little HTFU? It's rarely that miserable here, you make it sound like crossing south Georgia half starved

1bryan

ford2600 wrote: »

Are you one of these lads OP? https://goo.gl/QMX2XV

that's a race though, not what this thread is about.

also, they got into their buses halfway through and drove a good chunk of the course. There's no way that race should have been allowed to proceed. It was ridiculous.

BMCC1

JK.BMC wrote: »

Just looking for some guidance here. I have been cycling/training etc for many years, more focused in the last 10 or so. I have a fair idea of the various parameters and metrics of training effort/performance etc. What I want to know at this stage however, is the following: why would a cyclist train at the weekend for 4 or 5 hours if the typical race duration distance is significantly less than that?
I'm thinking of many A4 and even A3 riders, plus club riders, which make up the vast percentage of racing cyclists in Ireland, whose road race distances are typically between 50-80 km and rarely last more than 2 hours.
I'm well aware of the benefits of endurance etc but surely some of this time on the road is pointless, especially in baltic cold winds or miserable Irish rain.
If doing the Easter stage races, then yes, longer rides are needed. But why would anybody else do them, other than to clock up 'hours' and, God help us all, acquire 'Kudos' .....

So- can of worms crawling around. Wondering what the feeling is out there

I would be strongly of the view that for racing purposes (and particularly A3-A4) you do not need to do those long cycles in the bad weather. Train 'honestly' whenever you can train ie high or high-ish intensity and when you have time and the weather is good try to get in 2.5-3hrs at about 130HR -make sure you are at that rate though ie not stuck at 115 behind someone. I think one a week or even twice every three weeks is enough for these longer spins as long as you are getting the sharper sessions midweek. As long as I stick to this I have no fears at all from guys training 3-4hours in the bad weather -in fact I am now of the view that it is almost negative to train in bad weather.

harringtonp

BMCC1 wrote: »

I would be strongly of the view that for racing purposes (and particularly A3-A4) you do not need to do those long cycles in the bad weather. Train 'honestly' whenever you can train ie high or high-ish intensity and when you have time and the weather is good try to get in 2.5-3hrs at about 130HR -make sure you are at that rate though ie not stuck at 115 behind someone. I think one a week or even twice every three weeks is enough for these longer spins as long as you are getting the sharper sessions midweek. As long as I stick to this I have no fears at all from guys training 3-4hours in the bad weather -in fact I am now of the view that it is almost negative to train in bad weather.

I'm with you all the way here, makes complete sense

JK.BMC

Much of the above is useful and food for thought, so thanks. I don't think I lack mental 'strength' or focus but rather I'm interested to see if shorter training spins (3hr max) have proven sufficient in preparing for the road season, particularly the lower categories. It seems that there are those out there who are successful on this basis. I'm still awaiting an evidence-based rationale for doing 4-5 hours as a necessity to prepare for the same said races. Enjoyment/camaraderie/group fun/stress relief etc are all worthy reasons for long spins, but 'rule no 5' and 'htfu' etc is a bit lame as a reason for going training.

Chuchote

Just ride, just ride, just ride - Fausto Coppi

PowerToWait

JK.BMC wrote: »

Much of the above is useful and food for thought, so thanks. I don't think I lack mental 'strength' or focus but rather I'm interested to see if shorter training spins (3hr max) have proven sufficient in preparing for the road season, particularly the lower categories. It seems that there are those out there who are successful on this basis. I'm still awaiting an evidence-based rationale for doing 4-5 hours as a necessity to prepare for the same said races. Enjoyment/camaraderie/group fun/stress relief etc are all worthy reasons for long spins, but 'rule no 5' and 'htfu' etc is a bit lame as a reason for going training.

As a previous poster has pointed out the longer hours, in the right zone, should go some way to improving conditioning and lactate curve.

But a 3 hour solo spin could be worth 4 in a big group. More even.