M50 toll solicitor's letter

bladespin

davo10 wrote: »

I haven't read the whole thread so this may have been posted already.

Op and others who think the op cannot have car seized for non payment of toll fines, read and weep.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cars-seized-from-drivers-owing-average-28-600-in-m50-tolls-1.2717290%3Fmode%3Damp

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/it-is-more-of-an-ambulance-than-a-car-man-has-vehicle-seized-due-to-owing-16k-in-toll-charges-35276184.html

Not only can the car be seized, but a criminal prosecution can follow. It doesn't matter where you reside, it's where the offence took place, if you enter the state with that car, or any car registered to you, it can be taken on foot of a judgement.

Think you misread, this is about a car outside of Ireland.

No judgements have taken place, the 'debt' has been passed on to a debt collector outside Ireland.
Now if they had secured a judgement here against the OP the above might apply.

davo10

bladespin wrote: »

Think you misread, this is about a car outside of Ireland.

No judgements have taken place, the 'debt' has been passed on to a debt collector outside Ireland.
Now if they had secured a judgement here against the OP the above might apply.

The judgement usually follows on after all attempts have been made to collect the debt in cases like this. Op said he regularly drives in South, so car could be seized while he is here.

In the cases I linked, those people who had cars seized probably received many calls/letters from eflow/debt collectors before judgements were sought. I didn't misread, the op is just at the corredpondace/collection stage, the judgement may come next.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

markpb

ironclaw wrote: »

The Toll operator is entitled to their toll plus some summary costs, they aren't entitled to 50 times the original sum. Open to correction on that.

The Roads Act of 1993 allows state bodies such as TII to create by-laws which are legally enforceable. One of the by-laws sets down the toll for using that part of the M50 and also the additional amounts that have to be paid if the tolls aren't paid on time. For a car it's, €3.10 plus €3.00 plus €41 plus €103 depending on when it's paid.

If you believe they're not entitled to it, how do you explain:

A fine of €25,000 was slapped on one motorist in 2015 for persistent non-payment of tolls on Dublin’s M50 motorway. This amounted to five separate €5,000 fines being issued as the offender in question repeatedly failed to show up in court. One criminal case from 2014 saw a person who had failed to pay their M50 toll on 437 occasions in nine months receive a criminal conviction and a fine of €15,000. Pierse Fitzgibbon process some 6,000 claims against non-payers annually, with in the region of 300-400 criminal summons made on behalf of TII. 2,875 civil claims judgements were granted in favour of TII in 2015.

[...]

But TII also have the option to both publish offenders’ names (in Stubbs Gazette) and refer them to a sheriff whereupon goods to the value of unpaid fines can be seized, including vehicles. 486 such judgements were sent to a sheriff last year resulting in the seizure of 42 vehicles.

TheJournal.ie

AndyBoBandy

The penalties for non payment of the M50 toll need to be higher than most by the very nature of the fact it's a barrier free toll. otherwise nobody would pay, ever, if the most the toll/fine could ever rise to was only €10/€15. I cant imagine the courts system would be too happy either dealing with thousands of these cases weekly!

Jawgap

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well, if the debt collecting agency fancies it, they could just get a judgment here and use either a European Enforcement Order (if the OP doesn't contest the initial action here) or the provisions of the Brussels Regulation as a basis for proceeding in the UK.

Fred Swanson

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TheAnalyst_

You'd be mad to pay. You live in the UK and they are simply not going to take you to court.

AndyBoBandy

Does the OP live in the U.K.? Or does his car 'live' there? For reasons?

davo10

Fred Swanson wrote: »

You can't get an Irish judgement against a UK resident.

Are you sure about that? A quick Google of judgements against residents in other EU country's for unpaid debts seems to indicate that it is possible.

Fred Swanson

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davo10

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I am absolutely sure of that. The Irish courts have no jurisdiction over the residents of another state.

Any action would have to be brought where the person is resident.

Are you sure you are sure? That there is no EU legislation which allows a judgement against a resident in another EU country? Im sure you know more about this than I do, i haven't read through all the articles but google throws up a few cases about judgements for debts owed to banks/gambling companies/businesses against residents in other countries based on common EU legislation.

GM228

To clarify you can take an action against someone living in another state in any EU state (except Denmark), but only for the following actions:-

(1) (a) in matters relating to a contract, in the courts for the place of performance of the obligation in question;

(b) for the purpose of this provision and unless otherwise agreed, the place of performance of the obligation in question shall be: — in the case of the sale of goods, the place in a Member State where, under the contract, the goods were delivered or should have been delivered, — in the case of the provision of services, the place in a Member State where, under the contract, the services were provided or should have been provided;

(c) if point (b) does not apply then point (a) applies;

(2) in matters relating to tort, delict or quasi-delict, in the courts for the place where the harmful event occurred or may occur;

(3) as regards a civil claim for damages or restitution which is based on an act giving rise to criminal proceedings, in the court seised of those proceedings, to the extent that that court has jurisdiction under its own law to entertain civil proceedings;

(4) as regards a civil claim for the recovery, based on ownership, of a cultural object as defined in point 1 of Article 1 of Directive 93/7/EEC initiated by the person claiming the right to recover such an object, in the courts for the place where the cultural object is situated at the time when the court is seised;

(5) as regards a dispute arising out of the operations of a branch, agency or other establishment, in the courts for the place where the branch, agency or other establishment is situated;

(6) as regards a dispute brought against a settlor, trustee or beneficiary of a trust created by the operation of a statute, or by a written instrument, or created orally and evidenced in writing, in the courts of the Member State in which the trust is domiciled;

(7) as regards a dispute concerning the payment of remuneration claimed in respect of the salvage of a cargo or freight, in the court under the authority of which the cargo or freight in question: (a) has been arrested to secure such payment; or (b) could have been so arrested, but bail or other security has been given; provided that this provision shall apply only if it is claimed that the defendant has an interest in the cargo or freight or had such an interest at the time of salvage.



A debt such as covered in this thread isn't covered and so as Fred said the courts where the person resides would have to issue the judgement.

Delacent

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I am absolutely sure of that. The Irish courts have no jurisdiction over the residents of another state.

Any action would have to be brought where the person is resident.

They can't take action against something that takes place outside the country, but absolutely no issue whatever about taking action for something that happened inside the country.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

davo10

GM228, I have no legal knowledge but is an implied contract not formed where the OP by using the road (service) agrees/is obliged (forms a contract) to pay the toll? So would the first point in your post not apply?

davo10

Fred Swanson wrote: »

You then have problems with service and subsequent enforcement.

That is why they use agents aboard.

That is different from saying you cannot get a judgement against someone resident in another country.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

davo10

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I sincerely wish you the best of luck convincing an Irish judge that you served someone living in say Romania.

It just doesn't happen.

I thought the op lived up the road in Northern Ireland, roughly the same distance as cork from Dublin and drives his car regularly in the South, I wasn't aware he lived in Romania but maybe I'm wrong.

Fred Swanson

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mgbgt1978

With Brexit looming he may as well reside in Romania by the time this situation might end up in Court.
In fact he will probably be better off residing in NI rather than any EU Country, no matter how far way they are.

TheAnalyst_

When you have a foreign reg car and live abroad you are pretty much untouchable. 
I park for free in the UK when I drive there. Speed cameras - who cares. No consequences for not paying transport tickets bar getting thrown off.

bladespin

One example of a successful outcome would settle this, I've never heard of or can find any.

Johnboner

Delacent wrote: »

You really think that a debt judgement would make news?

Seriously?????!!!


This hassle for avoidance of a few quid?

The stupidity of it is amazing.

And yes, solicitors are in Kerry - if not sorted it goes to uk debt collection and the solicitors letter with another few hundred added will be UK based.

Are they in Cork and Kerry mountains?

Commotion Ocean

amcalester wrote: »

You drove through the tolls, past the big signs telling you that there was a toll and you don't think you agreed?

Out of curiosity, is there a sliproad to let people leave the motorway AFTER the signs warning that it's a tolled road?

You could get an anally-retentive legal eagle harping on how there was no opportunity for him or her to disagree with the toll charges after they were informed of such - however frugal the case may be.

markpb

dfeo wrote:

Out of curiosity, is there a sliproad to let people leave the motorway AFTER the signs warning that it's a tolled road?

There's a sign indicating that the road is a toll road *before* the last pre-toll exit. There's no need for an additional slip road and the countless court convictions prove that.

Speedsie

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Tag account is even better in my opinion,

€1 per month fee for the tag, reduced rate of toll at the M50 (so use it twice in a month and it's paid for itself), plus it works at every other toll in the country.

In my case it wouldn't. I have 3 cars on my video account (forgot about my brother). Between the three of us, we use the M50 less than 6 times a year.
If we each had a tag account that would be €36 per year in fees only. Then the toll would need to be added.
All the M50 tolls I pay don't add up to the administration fee of the tag.
Don't use other toll roads regularly either.

If the tag system allowed multipe cars if might work, but the three of us just don't travel toll roads enough at present to use it.

Speedsie

GM228

davo10 wrote: »

GM228, I have no legal knowledge but is an implied contract not formed where the OP by using the road (service) agrees/is obliged (forms a contract) to pay the toll? So would the first point in your post not apply?

Nope.

1. Tolls are not implied contracts, they are statutory charges provided for under bye-laws made under the Roads Act 1993.

2. Even if it was a contract, a debt collector is now chasing the debt with whom you never had a contract.

3. Re-read the provision stated, a case should be where a contract is/was to be performed i.e Ireland.

bladespin

Speedsie wrote:

Speedsie

Photo account works great for situations like this, used one for years until I started using the network full time.

GM228

davo10 wrote: »

Fred Swanson wrote: »

You then have problems with service and subsequent enforcement.

That is why they use agents aboard.

That is different from saying you cannot get a judgement against someone resident in another country.

You can affect service outside the state, but only in relation to the matters I already listed in which case you can get a judgement against a non-resident.

It's a very simple process in the EU in which case judgements are automatically recognised and enforceable following the abolishment of the old exequatur procesures.

You can also affect service outside the EU (to around 60 odd countries) for similar reasons to those I already listed, but recognition and service still requires an exequatur type procedure. Enforcement however could be an issue.