Changes to Kilkenny/Waterford county boundaries

blue note

Squidvicious wrote: »

A big problem for Kilkenny, however, is that if the commission's proposal goes ahead, Kilkenny will lose a large chunk of commercial rates revenue(mainly from the port which is included within the area to be transferred). So that will mean either reduced services for Kilkenny in the future or higher local taxes. The move is nothing more than an attempt by Waterford to take over the cash cow that is Belview port. No Kilkenny person should take this lying down.

Just to correct you on that, the report is not recommending extending the boundary to include the Port of Waterford in Waterford.

B. The Committee recommends a Boundary Extension of Waterford County into
Kilkenny County Council to include the area proximate to the suburban area in
Ferrybank. It has chosen to recommend the designation of a new Boundary
between the Authorities that will move the entire Electoral Area of
Kilculliheen and those parts of the Electoral Areas of Aglish and Dunkitt
contained within the Area of Interest that lie south of the of the N25 bypass to
the control of Waterford Council. This revision would have the effect of
retaining the entire Electoral Area of Rathpatrick to the east in county
Kilkenny, thereby retaining the village of Slieverue and the port at Belview and
its hinterland in that county. The Boundary as recommended follows those
electoral area boundaries that follow the line of an existing stream, a minor
tributary of the Suir.

road_high

Yourself isit wrote: »

The larger revenue from there is because it's close to Waterford city right?

And your point is? This is not even about revenue at all for us, I couldn't care less if the area in question supports itself or not. The issue is the integrity of Co. Kilkenny as a rightful unit.

KT Blotter

Mile High wrote:

The issue is the integrity of Co. Kilkenny as a rightful unit.

I saw a map which showed that Kilculliheen was part of Waterford a hundred years ago.

I think the report is a good compromise.

The report says Belview port and its "cash-cow" rates and Slieverue stay in Kilkenny as they always have been and Ferrybank and Kilculliheen move to Waterford which let's face it is part of Waterford City now anyway.

If it helps the people in Ferrybank to get more services and not have to travel 50km to Kilkenny City to pay their car tax or do jury duty when they can literally walk across a bridge to do it how could we be against that? It makes total sense to me.

Squidvicious

blue note wrote: »

Just to correct you on that, the report is not recommending extending the boundary to include the Port of Waterford in Waterford.

Fair enough, my mistake. I'm still against it, though!

KT Blotter

Here's a link to the map I was talking about - i.imgur.com/rgztRdQ.jpg

All the fuss is about less than 1% of Kilkenny which is already part of Waterford in all reality (and has been in the past) - I just don't get it?

Yourself isit

Makes sense that what is effectively the outskirts of Waterford city be extended into Waterford county. Why? Because Waterford is more likely to provide the transport and other services needed. Other option is to extend the city but not the county.

Cabaal

blackcard wrote: »

It is a big deal. There were over 19000 submissions to the Boundary Commission. Only 29 of these were in favour of moving the boundary. The Commission acknowledged that the vast majority of affected people did not want change and that their county identity was the most important issue. Maybe Carlow and Laois people are different and don't mind what county they belong to

19k submissions from 5k effected people, that's amazing.

They people effected by the change should have a say, outside that somebody in say Thomastown claiming this change will ripp a community apart is talking out their backside.
So the vast majority of these submissions are from people that such a change will have no impact on.

Members if FF claiming its an "act of war" are a ting like children as they are adding nothing constructive to the issue.

Cabaal

Squidvicious wrote: »

Fair enough, my mistake. I'm still against it, though!

So you're against it because?

catbear

FF are trying to win back a youth vote from SF. They'll say anything and votes and then line another generation up for betrayal.

road_high

KT Blotter wrote: »

I saw a map which showed that Kilculliheen was part of Waterford a hundred years ago.

I think the report is a good compromise.

The report says Belview port and its "cash-cow" rates and Slieverue stay in Kilkenny as they always have been and Ferrybank and Kilculliheen move to Waterford which let's face it is part of Waterford City now anyway.

If it helps the people in Ferrybank to get more services and not have to travel 50km to Kilkenny City to pay their car tax or do jury duty when they can literally walk across a bridge to do it how could we be against that? It makes total sense to me.

It's 2017- who tf actually does this? Sounds like a great reason argument alright, should the people of Gorey secede from Wexford because they have to travel 50km down to Wexford for something also?
The report is utter tripe, driven by sliveen stroke politics (the so called Commission was et up by, guess who, a Waterford td Mr. Coffey)- it was set up to deliver the answer he wanted.

road_high

KT Blotter wrote: »

Here's a link to the map I was talking about - i.imgur.com/rgztRdQ.jpg

All the fuss is about less than 1% of Kilkenny which is already part of Waterford in all reality (and has been in the past) - I just don't get it?

Probably because you have an in built bias alright and are not interested in the "other" side. Nice 1st posts btw.

Squidvicious

Cabaal wrote: »

So you're against it because?

Because, I see it bringing no benefit either to me or to my immediate neighbours nor do I see it being of any benefit to Waterford either for that matter. I want where I live to remain part of Co. Kilkenny.

road_high

Squidvicious wrote: »

Because, I see it bringing no benefit either to me or to my immediate neighbours nor do I see it being of any benefit to Waterford either for that matter. I want where I live to remain part of Co. Kilkenny.

That's because there isn't one.

KT Blotter

Road High wrote:

It's 2017- who tf actually does this? Sounds like a great reason argument alright, should the people of Gorey secede from Wexford because they have to travel 50km down to Wexford for something also?
The report is utter tripe, driven by sliveen stroke politics (the so called Commission was et up by, guess who, a Waterford td Mr. Coffey)- it was set up to deliver the answer he wanted.

I don't get your Gorey example? It's not like Gorey is a part of "Wicklow City"?

I also don't get why it's a good idea to have people travelling 50km to do jury duty, pay their car tax and do their council business when the same service is within walking distance?

I read the report and the report said the current situation is a nuisance and even called it irrational.

It also said that waterford council is already providing the social housing in the kilkenny ferrybank area - sure if that's true then isn't it already waterford for all the world?

I'm all for county pride, but not if it means daft stuff is happening- it should be about helping the people living there.

Squidvicious

KT Blotter wrote: »

I don't get your Gorey example? It's not like Gorey is a part of "Wicklow City"?

I also don't get why it's a good idea to have people travelling 50km to do jury duty, pay their car tax and do their council business when the same service is within walking distance?

I read the report and the report said the current situation is a nuisance and even called it irrational.

It also said that waterford council is already providing the social housing in the kilkenny ferrybank area - sure if that's true then isn't it already waterford for all the world?

I'm all for county pride, but not if it means daft stuff is happening- it should be about helping the people living there.

Personally, I've never found any difficulty and I live there. Car tax can be paid online and I very rarely need to go to the Council offices. If convenience is the only factor, then why only move the boundary a mile or so? The ultimate logic of "ah shure, isn't it all more or less Waterford already" would be to move the boundary to somewhere near Mullinavat and Mooncoin given that most people South of that line work and shop in Waterford City for the most part. On any practical level, the boundary move will be no improvement to my life or the life of the people living around me.

road_high

Squidvicious wrote: »

Personally, I've never found any difficulty and I live there. Car tax can be paid online and I very rarely need to go to the Council offices. If convenience is the only factor, then why only move the boundary a mile or so? The ultimate logic of "ah shure, isn't it all more or less Waterford already" would be to move the boundary to somewhere near Mullinavat and Mooncoin given that most people South of that line work and shop in Waterford City for the most part. On any practical level, the boundary move will be no improvement to my life or the life of the people living around me.

Actually Waterford have said they'd close the local area offices in Ferrybank so therefore services would be even further away "from the people". So so much for bringing things closer.

road_high

KT Blotter wrote: »

I don't get your Gorey example? It's not like Gorey is a part of "Wicklow City"?

I also don't get why it's a good idea to have people travelling 50km to do jury duty, pay their car tax and do their council business when the same service is within walking distance?

I read the report and the report said the current situation is a nuisance and even called it irrational.

It also said that waterford council is already providing the social housing in the kilkenny ferrybank area - sure if that's true then isn't it already waterford for all the world?

I'm all for county pride, but not if it means daft stuff is happening- it should be about helping the people living there.

Oh social housing, please yes dump even more of your social problems on the people of south Kilkenny! I'm sure they'll be delighted to see that as part of your "vision" for the area!

How often do you travel for jury duty? - also what if someone west of Dungarvan had to do the same- by your "logic"they should be part of cork! Jury duty is a very rare event and how that should mean changing county boundaries just boggles my mind. There's a new fantastic motorway now meaning south Kilkenny is more accessible and easier than ever.

As said numerous times, there's many ways of paying car tax these days. Changing county boundaries for something so incidental is again ridiculous. Actually, I think you should just be allowed pay it at any council or post office. All goes into the same pot anyhow and it's only once a year.

KT Blotter

Squidvicious wrote: »

Personally, I've never found any difficulty and I live there. Car tax can be paid online and I very rarely need to go to the Council offices. If convenience is the only factor, then why only move the boundary a mile or so? The ultimate logic of "ah shure, isn't it all more or less Waterford already" would be to move the boundary to somewhere near Mullinavat and Mooncoin given that most people South of that line work and shop in Waterford City for the most part. On any practical level, the boundary move will be no improvement to my life or the life of the people living around me. On any practical level, the boundary move will be no improvement to my life or the life of the people living around me.

That's why I said it was a compromise. They didn't extend it to Slieverue they said because of the history in the area.

When half of ferrybank is already in waterford and all of the area was in the waterford already and it's much more convenient for council services (for those who do use them) that's why I said it was a good idea.

What are your neighbours saying?

AMGer

blackcard wrote: »

This is in relation to over 5000 people now in Kilkenny being told that they will be in Waterford if the report of the Boundary Commission is adopted.A large tract of land is to be transferred.

Sure what harm - I imagine they're all employed in Waterford anyway May aswell have it on their address

Purple Mountain

How many square mileage are we talking here?

KT Blotter

road_high wrote: »

Oh social housing, please yes dump even more of your social problems on the people of south Kilkenny! I'm sure they'll be delighted to see that as part of your "vision" for the area!

Do you think councils shouldn't provide social housing or something?

I don't think anyone is "dumping" anyone else anywhere, unless you know something the rest of us don't know.

This makes as much sense as your Gorey argument that you still haven't explained.

road_high wrote: »

How often do you travel for jury duty? - also what if someone west of Dungarvan had to do the same- by your "logic"they should be part of cork! Jury duty is a very rare event and how that should mean changing county boundaries just boggles my mind. There's a new fantastic motorway now meaning south Kilkenny is more accessible and easier than ever.

As said numerous times, there's many ways of paying car tax these days. Changing county boundaries for something so incidental is again ridiculous. Actually, I think you should just be allowed pay it at any council or post office. All goes into the same pot anyhow and it's only once a year.

Have you read the report Road-High? This wasn't the only reason the report recommended the boundary be changed.

Besides, it doesn't matter how many times I travel to jury duty or how I pay car tax.

The point is that there are people who have to use public transport to do jury duty or visit the council offices *for whatever reason they need to* and travel long distances to one city when they are part of another city already. Daft!

road_high

KT Blotter wrote: »

Do you think councils shouldn't provide social housing or something?

I don't think anyone is "dumping" anyone else anywhere, unless you know something the rest of us don't know.

This makes as much sense as your Gorey argument that you still haven't explained.



Have you read the report Road-High? This wasn't the only reason the report recommended the boundary be changed.

Besides, it doesn't matter how many times I travel to jury duty or how I pay car tax.

The point is that there are people who have to use public transport to do jury duty or visit the council offices *for whatever reason they need to* and travel long distances to one city when they are part of another city already. Daft!

I hardly ever visit a council office. Why would you? It's not a daily occurrence. I can't remember the last time I needed to. Moving county boundaries to accommodate something so trivial is non sensical and pointless. If it really effects some individuals as much as you seem to think they can always move to live right beside a council office or a courthouse- it's a free country after all.
You say it "doesn't matter how many times I do jury duty or car tax" but then base your whole argument in favour of this non sense on trivial matters like these. Bizarre

Squidvicious

KT Blotter wrote: »

That's why I said it was a compromise. They didn't extend it to Slieverue they said because of the history in the area.

When half of ferrybank is already in waterford and all of the area was in the waterford already and it's much more convenient for council services (for those who do use them) that's why I said it was a good idea.

What are your neighbours saying?

I can honestly say that all of my neighbours are against it.

The being in Waterford already is hardly the point. There's nobody alive who can remember that area being part of Waterford. At the time, all of Ireland was part of the UK, but we would hardly use that as an argument for rejoining the UK(and I'm not saying that the boundary change is equivalent to Ireland joining the UK, I'm merely saying that using precedents from distant history is pointless).

The Council services argument has been dealt with by Road_high - it's really of no relevance to anybody - we rarely need to travel to Council offices(and the Council does have a sub-office in Ferrybank anyway..

blue note

What about the strategic planning aspect? The report said that the two councils have started working together in recent years at an operational level, but not at a strategic. And they don't see it as possible that they will considering county rivalries, etc. It's effectively part of Waterford city, but not included in town planning.

road_high

Squidvicious wrote: »

I can honestly say that all of my neighbours are against it.

The being in Waterford already is hardly the point. There's nobody alive who can remember that area being part of Waterford. At the time, all of Ireland was part of the UK, but we would hardly use that as an argument for rejoining the UK(and I'm not saying that the boundary change is equivalent to Ireland joining the UK, I'm merely saying that using precedents from distant history is pointless).

The Council services argument has been dealt with by Road_high - it's really of no relevance to anybody - we rarely need to travel to Council offices(and the Council does have a sub-office in Ferrybank anyway..

A sub office Waterford would close...so as for bringing Council services "closer to the people", I think that myth has been debunked.

Squidvicious

blue note wrote: »

What about the strategic planning aspect? The report said that the two councils have started working together in recent years at an operational level, but not at a strategic. And they don't see it as possible that they will considering county rivalries, etc. It's effectively part of Waterford city, but not included in town planning.

The reality is that good cooperation will be needed between the two Councils even if the move goes ahead. The extension isn't large enough to take away the need for close cooperation. There should be no reason why there cannot be good cooperation between the two. After all, this is what a similar commission proposed in relation to the Athlone/Roscommon boundary. A one-liner saying that this isn't possible due to county rivalries is hardly sufficient reasoning.

road_high

Squidvicious wrote: »

The reality is that good cooperation will be needed between the two Councils even if the move goes ahead. The extension isn't large enough to take away the need for close cooperation. There should be no reason why there cannot be good cooperation between the two. After all, this is what a similar commission proposed in relation to the Athlone/Roscommon boundary. A one-liner saying that this isn't possible due to county rivalries is hardly sufficient reasoning.

Indeed it makes no sense and illustrates their zero understanding of the area- by gifting one portion of land from one county to another would cause county rivalries to explode from where they are already and create false divisions forever.

road_high

KT Blotter wrote: »

That's why I said it was a compromise. They didn't extend it to Slieverue they said because of the history in the area.

When half of ferrybank is already in waterford and all of the area was in the waterford already and it's much more convenient for council services (for those who do use them) that's why I said it was a good idea.

What are your neighbours saying?

"Compromise" would assume it was mutually beneficial to both parties- lets be clear, the only side to lose would be Kilkenny and therefore it's not a compromise in any sense of the word. Just because it doesn't include the Port and areas around it (which was the prize for Waterford).

Squidvicious

road_high wrote: »

Indeed it makes no sense and illustrates their zero understanding of the area- by gifting one portion of land from one county to another would cause county rivalries to explode from where they are already and create false divisions forever.

There's certainly a danger that KKCC would be forever looking over it's shoulder for another boundary move. That would be a disincentive for KKCC to upgrade infrastructure in the vicinity in the future.

KT Blotter

road_high wrote: »

I hardly ever visit a council office. Why would you? It's not a daily occurrence. I can't remember the last time I needed to. Moving county boundaries to accommodate something so trivial is non sensical and pointless. If it really effects some individuals as much as you seem to think they can always move to live right beside a council office or a courthouse- it's a free country after all.
You say it "doesn't matter how many times I do jury duty or car tax" but then base your whole argument in favour of this non sense on trivial matters like these. Bizarre

Nah sorry road high I'm just not convinced.

Just because you mightn't need to visit john's green very often isn't a good enough reason to ignore those who do and who have to travel 100km to do it (50km up and back) at their own expense when it's totally unnecessary.

They might have to inspect planning permission plans, discuss their council rates or if they are a council house tenant pay their rent or apply for a council house or whatever they got to do.

It worries me that you have actually suggested that people should move their house or business from ferrybank to get closer to kilkenny local services.

Even if you are just joking, that's just not how local government should work and especially to preserve a 100 year old boundary that runs through houses, schools and GAA pitches.

It's somewhat ironic that you've suggested this given what I saw mentioned in the people about the proposed boundary "uprooting communities" as if the suggested boundary change would have people moving their homes, the bizarre thing you've just mentioned!

Anyway, I've said enough on the topic now, I agree with what the report said about the current situation being "irrational" and I've yet to see any better ideas. I hope that the local people are put first though, that's the whole point of having council offices at all.

You still never said whether you even read the report by the way.