Who asked the British to 'protect' our airspace from the Russians or anyone else ?

seachto7

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Seen an article today in the Indo. Now being the Indo you have to take any security or crime reports with a pinch of salt as it's quotes as usual from anonymous 'sources'. But if true it occurred to me - who ever asked the Brits to mind our air space ? Is it up to them if say, a French or Swedish or American or Russian fighter plane were in our air space ? Or is it just the Indo been the Indo

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/royal-air-force-jets-scramble-to-intercept-russian-bombers-circling-uk-and-ireland-35437672.html

Who would you prefer protected our airspace? If you squint your eyes hard enough, you might be able to get offended at the union flag on their planes way up there in the sky.

Galway_Old_Man

Ireland buying jets, oh please. We've no reason to engage in such silly antics. Let NATO and the Russians wave their willies at each other, I'm sure we find better things to do with the tens of millions needed for such posturing.

Zebra3

Galway_Old_Man wrote: »

Ireland buying jets, oh please. We've no reason to engage in such silly antics. Let NATO and the Russians wave their willies at each other, I'm sure we find better things to do with the tens of millions needed for such posturing.

We've a homeless epidemic, our politicians starve the health system, antiquated public transport system yet you'll still hear idiots moaning we don't have expensive killing machines.

Dohnjoe

Zebra3 wrote: »

The US started out as 13 states on the east coast. It is now 50 states. Plus countless other territories and something like 800 military bases abroad.

Russia (which was what the USSR was) lost huge tracts of territory in 1991.

And your post........

Oh jesus, we get it, the US/UK/Israel/whatever country personified is the most evil imperialist entity in the world, the "powers that be" are always to blame, anyone who doesn't adhere to this world view is stupid and uninformed, yadda yadda

We get it

FrancieBrady

As the person who pretended they had seen the 'agreement' has failed to back up what went on:

franciebrady wrote:

How do you know this then, if you haven't read it?

maryishere wrote:

But an agreement should not be so one sided that one side is providing a service and the other side is not paying for it?

and as the British have understandably (given their belligerent imperialist history) identified this area as THEIR area of interest, is there anything to suggest that they didn't ask if they could do this?
Seems logical to me that they would ask in their own self interest and are willing to pay for it.

Why should we, who haven't got a history of belligerent interference (on the contrary, we have sacrificed many and much, in pursuit of peace keeping) in foreign affairs feel in any way guilty about it?

Jawgap

Jawgap wrote: »

ISIS are not mindless savages. Their violence is about sending a carefully crafted political message - if they were just interested in body counts they'd target football stadia, not airports or transport networks. There's a reason, for example, they hit Brussels airport and not the busier Sciphol (which they could have easily travelled to) - the EU is headquartered in Brussels - they weren't attacking an airport inasmuch as it was a strike at a major centre of political power.

Lone wolves attaching themselves to ISIS are not the same as ISIS targeting a country. If they didn't put any resources into the attack then it wasn't targeted, because it wasn't important to them.

The distinction between a 'lone wolf' and ISIS themselves is a little academic isn't it?

ISIS targets have included Christmas markets, people watching fireworks on a seafront, crowds at gigs and the Stade De France - so I am not sure what your point about football stadiums is supposed to mean.

Anyone who thinks an attack (lone wolf or otherwise) can't or won't happen in Ireland is naive in the extreme. Whether we can do much about it is another matter.

Jawgap

Deleted User wrote: »

The distinction between a 'lone wolf' and ISIS themselves is a little academic isn't it?

ISIS targets have included Christmas markets, people watching fireworks on a seafront, crowds at gigs and the Stade De France - so I am not sure what your point about football stadiums is supposed to mean.

Anyone who thinks an attack (lone wolf or otherwise) can't or won't happen in Ireland is naive in the extreme. Whether we can do much about it is another matter.

No, it's not - it's quite important in understanding how the organisation works, how it sees itself, how it reacts and what it might do in future.

And seriously, you can't see the qualitative difference between an attack on the Stade de France when France and Germany are playing there, and the symbolism it is leaden with? Compared to, for example, an attack on Stade de Colombes or Parc des Prince in Paris or Stade Velodrome in Marseille?

Bataclan was an attack on culture and a way of life - that's why they went for a theatre in Paris.

Do you think we have conditions or areas in Ireland comparable to the French banlieues? or to Molenbeek in Brussels? That would lead to the spawning of lone wolf type attacks? Care to name those areas?

Jawgap

Jawgap wrote: »

No, it's not - it's quite important in understanding how the organisation works, how it sees itself, how it reacts and what it might do in future.

And seriously, you can't see the qualitative difference between an attack on the Stade de France when France and Germany are playing there, and the symbolism it is leaden with? Compared to, for example, an attack on Stade de Colombes or Parc des Prince in Paris or Stade Velodrome in Marseille?

Bataclan was an attack on culture and a way of life - that's why they went for a theatre in Paris.

Do you think we have conditions or areas in Ireland comparable to the French banlieues? or to Molenbeek in Brussels? That would lead to the spawning of lone wolf type attacks? Care to name those areas?

No, I don't think we have comparable areas. I certainly agree that the chances of an attack are less here than in some cities in Europe.

However, I think you are really stretching if you are going to claim that the various ISIS attacks are all carefully thought out meaningful targets rather than 'what we can get away with'. You are giving them credit they really don't deserve. People watching fireworks, people sitting on a terrace having a beer, people listening to music, people shopping before Christmas, people getting from A to B on a train or bus. Really?

And if you are going to reach for the 'way of life' logic then we are as guilty as the next country. Like I said, I agree it is much less likely that we will suffer an attack but not because some strategic genius in ISIS has decided the paddies are grand and they have no quarrel with us.

Fratton Fred

Jawgap wrote: »

No, it's not - it's quite important in understanding how the organisation works, how it sees itself, how it reacts and what it might do in future.

And seriously, you can't see the qualitative difference between an attack on the Stade de France when France and Germany are playing there, and the symbolism it is leaden with? Compared to, for example, an attack on Stade de Colombes or Parc des Prince in Paris or Stade Velodrome in Marseille?

Bataclan was an attack on culture and a way of life - that's why they went for a theatre in Paris.

Do you think we have conditions or areas in Ireland comparable to the French banlieues? or to Molenbeek in Brussels? That would lead to the spawning of lone wolf type attacks? Care to name those areas?

I believe security experts have said several times that whilst Ireland is relatively low risk, it does have a number of high profile targets, ie US multinationals.

Jawgap

Deleted User wrote: »

No, I don't think we have comparable areas. I certainly agree that the chances of an attack are less here than in some cities in Europe.

However, I think you are really stretching if you are going to claim that the various ISIS attacks are all carefully thought out meaningful targets rather than 'what we can get away with'. You are giving them credit they really don't deserve. People watching fireworks, people sitting on a terrace having a beer, people listening to music, people shopping before Christmas, people getting from A to B on a train or bus. Really?

And if you are going to reach for the 'way of life' logic then we are as guilty as the next country. Like I said, I agree it is much less likely that we will suffer an attack but not because some strategic genius in ISIS has decided the paddies are grand and they have no quarrel with us.

You're mixing up the different types of attack which shows you're not really grasping what they're about.

For example, there's a world of difference between some twisted individual taking a truck and using it as a terror weapon and someone, as in the case of the Paris attacks, preparing and using triacetone triperoxide explosive in a suicide vest - one only requires you to be able to turn a key and stamp on an accelerator, the other requires some significant expertise at manufacturing and handling unstable substances prone to early detonation.

Second, the lone wolf type attacks tend to be single events - very shocking and very bloody, but not synchronous - the Paris attacks were a much more targeted affair not just because of the deaths and injuries they cause but also because of their synchronous nature.

Are we at risk of a series of synchronous attacks? Yes, but the risk is negligible.

Are we at risk of a lone wolf type attack? Yes, but the risk is negligible - because, UN missions aside, we've no historic link with the area, we've also not been engaged in any military incursions there, and we've been tolerant, open and accepting of those refugees who've made it out of the region to be re-settled here.

I'm guessing, the fact we send our navy to drag poor unfortunates out of the water rather than to lob tomahawks into the region helps a great deal in how we are perceived.

hytrogen

Stars and Stripes wrote:

" using technology beyond what met.ie can afford to buy " You'd find much of that technology is actually made in Ireland by Intel etc. And probably since we make that technology Met Eireann is more than up to date with necessary infrastructure to be compliant as a member of EUMETSAT.

Have you read some of those sea area forecasts? Someone clearly threw out their Oxford English dictionary or had too much cherry through the night!

darkpagandeath

maryishere wrote: »

M15 is internal security of UK. M16 involved outside UK.

In Ireland, from Wiki: The Special Detective Unit (SDU) (Irish: Aonad Speisialta Bleachtaireachta) is the main domestic security agency of the Garda Síochána, the national police force of Ireland, under the aegis of the Crime & Security Branch (CSB). It is the primary counter-terrorism and counter-espionage investigative unit ..

I know hence my Question....

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

You're mixing up the different types of attack which shows you're not really grasping what they're about.

For example, there's a world of difference between some twisted individual taking a truck and using it as a terror weapon and someone, as in the case of the Paris attacks, preparing and using triacetone triperoxide explosive in a suicide vest - one only requires you to be able to turn a key and stamp on an accelerator, the other requires some significant expertise at manufacturing and handling unstable substances prone to early detonation.

Second, the lone wolf type attacks tend to be single events - very shocking and very bloody, but not synchronous - the Paris attacks were a much more targeted affair not just because of the deaths and injuries they cause but also because of their synchronous nature.

Are we at risk of a series of synchronous attacks? Yes, but the risk is negligible.

Are we at risk of a lone wolf type attack? Yes, but the risk is negligible - because, UN missions aside, we've no historic link with the area, we've also not been engaged in any military incursions there, and we've been tolerant, open and accepting of those refugees who've made it out of the region to be re-settled here.

I'm guessing, the fact we send our navy to drag poor unfortunates out of the water rather than to lob tomahawks into the region helps a great deal in how we are perceived.

Oh Right Ireland has that monopoly does it only navy doing this ?

maryishere

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone who thinks an attack (lone wolf or otherwise) can't or won't happen in Ireland is naive in the extreme. Whether we can do much about it is another matter.

Correct. At least thanks to the RAF we have have some slight measure of protection / deterrent if someone decided to hijack a plane and target something ( possibly a US company or plane ) or somebody (perhaps a visiting politician) with it in Ireland.
http://www.newstalk.com/Private-plane-UK-sonic-booms-RAF-jets-Midlands-Dublin-

FrancieBrady

maryishere wrote: »

Correct. At least thanks to the RAF we have have some slight measure of protection / deterrent if someone decided to hijack a plane and target something ( possibly a US company or plane ) or somebody (perhaps a visiting politician) with it in Ireland.
http://www.newstalk.com/Private-plane-UK-sonic-booms-RAF-jets-Midlands-Dublin-

Have you found that agreement between Ireland and the UK that you seen that shows we 'are paying nothing towards' this or whatever negative it was you guessed?

maryishere

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have you found that agreement between Ireland and the UK that you seen that shows we 'are paying nothing towards' this or whatever negative it was you guessed?

The agreement referred to here? http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/raf-tornado-jets-could-shoot-down-hijacked-planes-in-irish-airspace-414646.html?utm_source=recirc&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=recirc

I asked Bertie did he know if it was costing Ireland anything and he said no, but if the British did want a few quid he could suggest organising a dig out. A phone call to the Healy Raes revealed nothing either, they said it was top secret. The Taoiseach was out of the country at the weekend and not returning calls. Maybe the British would settle fore a bit of barter seeing as we are not long out of the IMF. Maybe they would settle for a few items of unwanted decommissioned hardware?

FrancieBrady

maryishere wrote: »

The agreement referred to here? http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/raf-tornado-jets-could-shoot-down-hijacked-planes-in-irish-airspace-414646.html?utm_source=recirc&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=recirc

I asked Bertie did he know if it was costing Ireland anything and he said no, but if the British did want a few quid he could suggest organising a dig out. A phone call to the Healy Raes revealed nothing either, they said it was top secret. The Taoiseach was out of the country at the weekend and not returning calls. Maybe the British would settle fore a bit of barter seeing as we are not long out of the IMF. Maybe they would settle for a few items of unwanted decommissioned hardware?

Covering lies with attempts at self deprecating humour doesn't really work.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Oh Right Ireland has that monopoly does it only navy doing this ?

No, clearly it doesn't. I'm just pointing out our involvement in the region has been based around notions of humanitarianism not colonialism......

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

No, clearly it doesn't. I'm just pointing out our involvement in the region has been based around notions of humanitarianism not colonialism......

ISIS are attacking Europe as they cant get the Americans. Simple as. You think they really care about past colonisation ? ISIS want a caliphate Remember what that was ? And did ? The lone wolf attacks are from young men born in countries taken in by ISIS lies. If you don't think that can happen here and being so called neutral is putting us in ISIS good books you are mistaken. We already had a bomber killed and we have a lad banged up in Egypt.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

ISIS are attacking Europe as they cant get the Americans. Simple as. You think they really care about past colonisation ? ISIS want a caliphate Remember what that was ? And did ? The lone wolf attacks are from young men born in countries taken in by ISIS lies. If you don't think that can happen here and being so called neutral is putting us in ISIS good books you are mistaken. We already had a bomber killed and we have a lad banged up in Egypt.

It can happen here. An attack is a possibility - but it's not a probability.

And the type weak-minded, ill informed scaremongering that suggests otherwise - that enlarges the ISIS threa beyond what it is - plays right into the hands of both ISIS and the security establishment who are assaulting a lot of our fundamental freedoms in the name of keeping us "safe" from the bogeyman.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

It can happen here. An attack is a possibility - but it's not a probability.

And the type weak-minded, ill informed scaremongering that suggests otherwise - that enlarges the ISIS threa beyond what it is - plays right into the hands of both ISIS and the security establishment who are assaulting a lot of our fundamental freedoms in the name of keeping us "safe" from the bogeyman.

Again the minister of foreign affairs in your opinion is scaremongering ? Weak minded I'll informed is he ? What is the Security establishment going to do here ? Is this not scaremongering ? You remember how easily Wallace and grommit got into Shannon ? or that pensioner walking around the runway ?

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

ISIS are attacking Europe as they cant get the Americans. Simple as. You think they really care about past colonisation ? ISIS want a caliphate Remember what that was ? And did ? The lone wolf attacks are from young men born in countries taken in by ISIS lies. If you don't think that can happen here and being so called neutral is putting us in ISIS good books you are mistaken. We already had a bomber killed and we have a lad banged up in Egypt.

No matter how hard you and maryishere try, we are not having a fund raising drive to expand Ireland's military-industrial complex.....

darkpagandeath

Deleted User wrote: »

No matter how hard you and maryishere try, we are not having a fund raising drive to expand Ireland's military-industrial complex.....

But this is the gas thing, When something happens the first shrieking will be the ones that did not want spending.

riffmongous

Slightly related to what was being said before, but I wonder if our general pro-Palestine stance has ever bought us any credit in the arab extremist worldview

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Again the minister of foreign affairs in your opinion is scaremongering ? Weak minded I'll informed is he ? What is the Security establishment going to do here ? Is this not scaremongering ? You remember how easily Wallace and grommit got into Shannon ? or that pensioner walking around the runway ?

Oh seriously?!?!?

Foreign Affairs???

Hmmmm, minister in low profile department sees chance to big up his profile by exaggerating events......who'd have thunk it. Not even an off-the-record briefing by a senior police officer or civil servant? Just the utterances of the TD for Laois-Offaly?

And Shannon isn't a target for anyone except our loony lefties.

And as for the security establishment they're after what they've always been after - power. And what better way to beef up their power and their budgets than by exaggerating the threat.

If you want to worry about something, worry about the militarisation of the police.

FrancieBrady

darkpagandeath wrote: »

But this is the gas thing, When something happens the first shrieking will be the ones that did not want spending.

Yeh, why did we not have a multi billion pound air force to stop a guy stealing a truck Joe! :rolleyes:

darkpagandeath

riffmongous wrote: »

Slightly related to what was being said before, but I wonder if our general pro-Palestine stance has ever bought us any credit in the arab extremist worldview

Possibly with the less belligerent, But not against actual threats.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Oh seriously?!?!?

Foreign Affairs???

Hmmmm, minister in low profile department sees chance to big up his profile by exaggerating events......who'd have thunk it. Not even an off-the-record briefing by a senior police officer or civil servant? Just the utterances of the TD for Laois-Offaly?

And Shannon isn't a target for anyone except our loony lefties.

And as for the security establishment they're after what they've always been after - power. And what better way to beef up their power and their budgets than by exaggerating the threat.

If you want to worry about something, worry about the militarisation of the police.

When is this happening in Ireland ? Sounds like weak-Minded scaremongering ?

darkpagandeath

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh, why did we not have a multi billion pound air force to stop a guy stealing a truck Joe! :rolleyes:

Who said it would stop that ?

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

When is this happening in Ireland ? Sounds like weak-Minded scaremongering ?

We're a bit behind the Brits, the French and the Germans......but not that far.....