Who asked the British to 'protect' our airspace from the Russians or anyone else ?

darkpagandeath

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I prefer to think of it as we are using a service.
Same as we don't have a space programme but use satellites etc put there by countries that have a space programme.


Was laughing at that article you posted. The journalist who wrote that it seems somewhat confused, so busy is he coming up with the foreboding adjectives and slants. ('The Minister 'let slip' being a classic. He was reading from a prepared speech for goodness sake!(
He doesn't seem to see the contradiction in that FF seem to believe that the British are not informing the IAA and so causing a risk themselves and the fact that in the two incidents it is clear the IAA were informed about the presence of Russian jets and took action. How else would they have known if the British hadn't told them?

Lots of sensationalism and scaremongering and misinformation going on about this issue.

Like militarisation of the Police ? That's not happening.

Stars and Stripes

I know guys how easy it is to get stuck into a ping pong debate over an issue but I wouldn't get too worried. To be honest like I said in the opening post, it sounds like sensationalism and scaremongering and misinformation.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm not getting bogged further down in point scoring, I have explained there is specific legislation to allow the Defence force to operate in civilian capacity and in co-ordination with the Garda.

Well the answer is straightforward and its something you'd have come back with if you knew.....

......it's in the DF Regs (the DFRs) . Don't worry, I think you've sufficiently demonstrated your knowledge of such matters that it need detain us no further

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Well the answer is straightforward and its something you'd have come back with if you knew.....

......it's in the DF Regs (the DFRs) . Don't worry, I think you've sufficiently demonstrated your knowledge of such matters that it need detain us no further

I have no need to know the full wording of said legislation to know legislation exists. Common sense tells you there is legislation for the Defence forces to act on Irish soil. Only countries generally that allow the Army to move around and do what they want are dictatorships. The rest have legislation and governmental control. I have no idea why one has laboured this point to death.

1 out of 10 stuff.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Like militarisation of the Police ? That's not happening.

Hmmm.....well let's "audit" the Guards using the academic work that's been done in this area.....

from Normalising police militarisation, living in denial, in Policing and Society - An International Journal of Research and Policy, 25(3), 2015.......

.....establishing of Police Paramilitary Units (PPUs) (SWAT, in the vernacular).....CHECK (the ERU has been expanded and RSUs set up - 1 in 2008, 5 by 2012, 6 in 2016)

....deployment of PPUs extended beyond original role of dealing with armed offenders, hostage situations and terrorists.....CHECK (as per photographs above ERU and RSUs deployed proactively instead of reactively).

....PPU officers dressing "battle fatigues" wearing Kevlar helmets.....CHECK (photos above show RSU officers wearing tactical helmets and ERU wearing special forces patterned helmets)

....PPU officers armed with sophisticated, often automatic or semi-automatic weaponry...CHECK per previous post, HK416s in evidence (one of the same weapons used by the ARW)

....transfer of training, equipment and capabilities between military and PPU.....CHECK ERU and ARW are known to share training experiences and the ERU (and probably the RSUs) make use of the DF's properties for training.

....so yeah, we may be some ways behind the Brits and the Americans but only a fool would pretend it's not happening here too.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Hmmm.....well let's "audit" the Guards using the academic work that's been done in this area.....

from Normalising police militarisation, living in denial, in Policing and Society - An International Journal of Research and Policy, 25(3), 2015.......

.....establishing of Police Paramilitary Units (PPUs) (SWAT, in the vernacular).....CHECK (the ERU has been expanded and RSUs set up - 1 in 2008, 5 by 2012, 6 in 2016)

....deployment of PPUs extended beyond original role of dealing with armed offenders, hostage situations and terrorists.....CHECK (as per photographs above ERU and RSUs deployed proactively instead of reactively).

....PPU officers dressing "battle fatigues" wearing Kevlar helmets.....CHECK (photos above show RSU officers wearing tactical helmets and ERU wearing special forces patterned helmets)

....PPU officers armed with sophisticated, often automatic or semi-automatic weaponry...CHECK per previous post, HK416s in evidence (one of the same weapons used by the ARW)

....transfer of training, equipment and capabilities between military and PPU.....CHECK ERU and ARW are known to share training experiences and the ERU (and probably the RSUs) make use of the DF's properties for training.

....so yeah, we may be some ways behind the Brits and the Americans but only a fool would pretend it's not happening here too.

So would one have a link to this credible peer reviewed Research or is it from Moonbat central ? I think one worries to much. Where were the militarised police when a pensioner was walking on an international airport runway ?

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So would one have a link to this credible peer reviewed Research or is it from Moonbat central ? I think one worries to much. Where were the militarised police when a pensioner was walking on an international airport runway ?

Well it's a peer reviewed journal, but if want to respond with a modestly funny Simon Pegg movie be my guest.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Well it's a peer reviewed journal, but if want to respond with a modestly funny Simon Pegg movie be my guest.

Care to link the journal ?

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I prefer to think of it as we are using a service.
Same as we don't have a space programme but use satellites etc put there by countries that have a space programme.

you know putting in orbit and using satellites isn't free, right?

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Care to link the journal ?

Eh, there's a full citation there with year, volume, issue and title.

I'm sure if you can find a Simon Pegg video, you can find that

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you know putting in orbit and using satellites isn't free, right?

Who said it was?
Do you know if we pay the British for this? Have they asked us to pay? Have we asked them? Or even, why should we pay if we are not the target?
As the British hand them over to other NATO forces, is NATO paying for it like they pay for other defence services that the UK provide.

Let us know when you find out?

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Eh, there's a full citation there with year, volume, issue and title.

I'm sure if you can find a Simon Pegg video, you can find that

Soo, why no link ? Generally up to those claiming to provide the evidence ? Is it Wiki … :P

darkpagandeath

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who said it was?
Do you know if we pay the British for this? Have they asked us to pay? Have we asked them? Or even, why should we pay if we are not the target?
As the British hand them over to other NATO forces, is NATO paying for it like they pay for other defence services that the UK provide.

Let us know when you find out?

Ah right, So must be part of the British Humanitarian actions.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Soo, why no link ? Generally up to those claiming to provide the evidence ? Is it Wiki … :P

Ah, come on now? You were asked to link to "specific legislation" and demurred, and now you're getting twisty about me not posting a link, even though I gave you a full citation??

It's not a wiki, according to the bumpf.....

Policing & Society is abstracted and indexed in: CSA Political Science Abstracts; Current Contents/Social and Behavioral Sciences; Criminal Justice Abstracts; International Bibliography of the Social Sciences; OCLC; PsycINFO, Social Services Abstracts, Sociological Abstracts and Thomson Reuters Social Science Citation Index.

2 chaps called Kappeler and Kraska are the authors.

FrancieBrady

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ah right, So must be part of the British Humanitarian actions.

Don't we get paid for services in the Med etc? What makes you think the UK is doing pro bono? Unless of course, it is entirely in their interests.

realitykeeper

Whatever about Britain`s airspace, it`s territorial waters were negotiated within the EU. It got a good deal because it is a strong country. However, now that it is leaving there is no need for the EU to pander to British whims any longer. Therefore, the EU should unilaterally reassign a big chunk of British territorial water to Ireland. The Brits have nothing to bargain with.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Ah, come on now? You were asked to link to "specific legislation" and demurred, and now you're getting twisty about me not posting a link, even though I gave you a full citation??

It's not a wiki, according to the bumpf.....



2 chaps called Kappeler and Kraska are the authors.

Society for the Study of Social Problems
Publisher Description
Founded in 1951, the Society for the Study of Social Problems (SSSP) promotes research on and serious examination of the problems of social life. The SSSP works to solve these problems and to develop informed social policy. SSSP members are an interdisciplinary community of scholars, practitioners, advocates, and students interested in the application of critical, scientific, and humanistic perspectives to the study of vital social problems.

That them ?


I was not asked, one asked for something that does not exist. Again pointless point scoring. I laid out what I meant after that.

darkpagandeath

realitykeeper wrote: »

Whatever about Britain`s airspace, it`s territorial waters were negotiated within the EU. It got a good deal because it is a strong country. However, now that it is leaving there is no need for the EU to pander to British whims any longer. Therefore, the EU should unilaterally reassign a big chunk of British territorial water to Ireland. The Brits have nothing to bargain with.

Yes, They would love to loose such a member from NATO. Talk about cutting the nose off despite the face. The British cold tell them to get stuffed and just work with the Americans. Invading Islands is notoriously hard. Unlike mainland Europe.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That them ?


I was not asked, one asked for something that does not exist. Again pointless point scoring. I laid out what I meant after that.

Actually, as I've pointed out, the DFRs do exist and very much so......but were unaware of both existence and their specificity......so when you schlap them up, like you were asked......

Jawgap wrote: »

ATCP is "specific legislation"? Which legislation?

........

Jawgap wrote: »

......
You, btw, said the ATCP role of the DF "is specific legislation" - are you going to post that legislation up?

.....I'll reciprocate and stick up a link direct to that article. Until then, I believe there's sufficient in the citation to help you chase down the article, if you're so inclined.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually, as I've pointed out, the DFRs do exist and very much so......but were unaware of both existence and their specificity......so when you schlap them up, like you were asked......




.....I'll reciprocate and stick up a link direct to that article. Until then, I believe there's sufficient in the citation to help you chase down the article, if you're so inclined.

I have not read every piece of legislation on the books in Ireland sorry about that. One seems to know I am wrong why not post up the Evidence.

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I have not read every piece of legislation on the books in Ireland sorry about that. One seems to know I am wrong why not post up the Evidence.

Again, missing the point.....I know which legislation governs the ATCP mission/role of the DF (it's the Defence Act as amended and specifically, the DFRs made under it) - why would I post up something I know, that I asked for yo see if you knew (seen as you brought up the whole thing about "specific legislation") when you clearly haven't got the first clue about it, otherwise you'd have shot back with a simple "it's the DFRs."

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

Again, missing the point.....I know which legislation governs the ATCP mission/role of the DF (it's the Defence Act as amended and specifically, the DFRs made under it) - why would I post up something I know, that I asked for yo see if you knew (seen as you brought up the whole thing about "specific legislation") when you clearly haven't got the first clue about it, otherwise you'd have shot back with a simple "it's the DFRs."

So, You are saying that the Defence force can rock up to Any Garda investigation and take part without legislative back up ? The Defence force can without legislative backup act in Civilian areas without letting the relevant authorities Garda or Government know.....

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So, You are saying that the Defence force can rock up to Any Garda investigation and take part without legislative back up ? The Defence force can without legislative backup act in Civilian areas without letting the relevant authorities Garda or Government know.....

No, for some who seemed to be quite certain about the specific legislation applying to ATCP you seem unclear as to the mechanics of it work.

First, consider the words Aid to the Civil Power - then maybe look at craven and Humphry's, Military Law in Ireland - you'll get a better idea then.

darkpagandeath

Jawgap wrote: »

No, for some who seemed to be quite certain about the specific legislation applying to ATCP you seem unclear as to the mechanics of it work.

First, consider the words Aid to the Civil Power - then maybe look at craven and Humphry's, Military Law in Ireland - you'll get a better idea then.

I'm not being dragged down this rabbit hole any further. So back to the topic. Would Ireland not be better off buying some drones ?

Fratton Fred

realitykeeper wrote: »

Whatever about Britain`s airspace, it`s territorial waters were negotiated within the EU. It got a good deal because it is a strong country. However, now that it is leaving there is no need for the EU to pander to British whims any longer. Therefore, the EU should unilaterally reassign a big chunk of British territorial water to Ireland. The Brits have nothing to bargain with.

like where, the North Sea?

Jawgap

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm not being dragged down this rabbit hole any further. So back to the topic. Would Ireland not be better off buying some drones ?

To add to the ones we already have?

Barry Badrinath

Jawgap wrote: »

To add to the ones we already have?

Ah stop.

Its painful watching you expose the complete idiocy of some people here :pac:

They are too proud to retract comments which they said and furthermore, dont understand.

Although, I only see them when you quote them.



People:
It's ok to be wrong. Just dont argue that you are right while you actually have no idea what you are talking about.

Peregrine

darkpagandeath has closed his account. No point in quoting him further.

jimgoose

Fratton Fred wrote: »

...The British are doing a job the Irish should do themselves.

Dublin is lest than three hundred miles from London. The range of a Eurofighter Typhoon is about 2,300 miles. Were the RAF to confine itself to UK airspace it would cause more and more serious problems than stupid arguments on the Internet. The current Gentleman's Agreement makes a lot of sense tactically and politically.

Fratton Fred

jimgoose wrote: »

Dublin is lest than three hundred miles from London. The range of a Eurofighter Typhoon is about 2,300 miles. Were the RAF to confine itself to UK airspace it would cause more and more serious problems than stupid arguments on the Internet. The current Gentleman's Agreement makes a lot of sense tactically and politically.

which is why I said this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102628500&postcount=387