Are we really back to this sh*t again?

darkpagandeath

Yourself isit wrote: »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

We're below average.

Is there a decent source Just wiki you know. Any on the OECD ?

jester77

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That's true but would they strip out the new cars holidays and alike to live pretty frugally ? Ireland has an odd obsession with owning a house I.E a family home Kind of like the UK. A lot of Europeans rent.

If you are bringing in 3k+ a month after tax, then putting away 500 is not going to leave you living frugally.

Samuel T. Cogley

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Completely disagree, what people outside the pale want is high speed trains to Dublin and world class public transport, it's only a little island it's shouldn't be this hard to get around.

But that's never going to happen with our tax and transport model. They want that but don't want to pay for it. They're perfectly happy pay €450K for a house in Portmarnock though because that's 'theirs'.

Spanish Eyes

These and the likes could be the properties that the future vultures hoover up in time. I hope not.

Anyway, how many folk are still living in their houses not having paid a penny on the mortgage for years. Remember the Killiney couple?

Most of us play by the rules, others play the game.

Gavlor

Wanderer78 wrote: »

ah yes, the common misconception of banking. banks are no longer 'facilitators', they create the majority of money we use! they are not just players in game but in fact major players. something of which conventional economists fail to realise.

That's just a load of words thrown together without reason and without substance.

Point me im the direction of a conventional economist that doesn't realise that banks are major players in the financial game!

What a nonsense post.

Considering you quoted my post, It's not the banks fault that idiots overstretch. When you're hungry walking past a river, would you jump in because it's full of fish???

darkpagandeath

Gavlor wrote: »

That's just a load of words thrown together without reason and without substance.

Point me im the direction of a conventional economist that doesn't realise that banks are major players in the financial game!

What a nonsense post.

Considering you quoted my post, It's not the banks fault that idiots overstretch. When you're hungry walking past a river, would you jump in because it's full of fish???

Banks were well aware of what was going on. Could have followed procedures and checked things. You know like a credit union loan for a deposit. It happened all over the world with property. Remember the papers telling you that you were a fool not to get on the ladder whether owning or letting. Is one a believer of Enda and We all went mad ? I rent thanks.

Yourself isit

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Is there a decent source Just wiki you know. Any on the OECD ?

The referenced link at the bottom?

http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMARK_DS-057102_QID_684D63DF_UID_-3F171EB0&layout=TIME,C,X,0;GEO,L,Y,0;INCGRP,L,Z,0;HHTYP,L,Z,1;TENURE,L,Z,2;INDICATORS,C,Z,3;&zSelection=DS-057102INDICATORS,OBS_FLAG;DS-057102INCGRP,TOTAL;DS-057102TENURE,OWN;DS-057102HHTYP,TOTAL;&rankName1=HHTYP_1_2_-1_2&rankName2=INDICATORS_1_2_-1_2&rankName3=INCGRP_1_2_-1_2&rankName4=TENURE_1_2_-1_2&rankName5=TIME_1_0_0_0&rankName6=GEO_1_2_0_1&sortR=ASC_0&sortC=ASC_-1_FIRST&rStp=&cStp=&rDCh=&cDCh=&rDM=true&cDM=true&footnes=false&empty=false&wai=false&time_mode=NONE&time_most_recent=false&lang=EN&cfo=%23%23%23%2C%23%23%23.%23%23%23

Yourself isit

Gavlor wrote: »

That's just a load of words thrown together without reason and without substance.

Point me im the direction of a conventional economist that doesn't realise that banks are major players in the financial game!

What a nonsense post.

Considering you quoted my post, It's not the banks fault that idiots overstretch. When you're hungry walking past a river, would you jump in because it's full of fish???

It is the banks fault. And the regulators fault. They were the experts. Their economists talked up the economy or dismissed the bubble.

Ayuntamiento

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Banks were well aware of what was going on. Could have followed procedures and checked things. You know like a credit union loan for a deposit. It happened all over the world with property. Remember the papers telling you that you were a fool not to get on the ladder whether owning or letting. Is one a believer of Enda and We all went mad ? I rent thanks.

The CU loan for a deposit still happens today. There's ways to do it that the bank won't find out about. The fact that people still do it shows that you can't save everybody from themselves.

Gavlor

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Banks were well aware of what was going on. Could have followed procedures and checked things. You know like a credit union loan for a deposit. It happened all over the world with property. Remember the papers telling you that you were a fool not to get on the ladder whether owning or letting. Is one a believer of Enda and We all went mad ? I rent thanks.

Banks, papers, Enda, credit union loan. You've blamed everyone apart from the house buyer??

I'm not one of those people that overstretched so it's irrelevant to me, however to say that the banks were to blame is hilarious. Fair play to you for renting by the way, hopefully the day you're smarter than most and haven't blown your money on a house means that you've got a decent pension built up with your surplus income and you aren't depending on the tax payer to fund your retirement.

darkpagandeath

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

The CU loan for a deposit still happens today. There's ways to do it that the bank won't find out about. The fact that people still do it shows that you can't save everybody from themselves.

True but you could gather from the size of the deposit and ask basic questions. Most people would not think ahead to much and have thought about how to answer. Along with allowing multiples of wages was the other issue.

Yourself isit

Gavlor wrote: »

Banks, papers, Enda, credit union loan. You've blamed everyone apart from the house buyer??

I'm not one of those people that overstretched so it's irrelevant to me, however to say that the banks were to blame is hilarious. Fair play to you for renting by the way, hopefully the day you're smarter than most and haven't blown your money on a house means that you've got a decent pension built up with your surplus income and you aren't depending on the tax payer to fund your retirement.

I rented during the boom and didn't buy. Major mistake. If I had bought and had a tracker mortgage I would have twice the house now at the same per monthly cost.

But it's not up to normal people to be financial experts.

darkpagandeath

Gavlor wrote: »

Banks, papers, Enda, credit union loan. You've blamed everyone apart from the house buyer??

I'm not one of those people that overstretched so it's irrelevant to me, however to say that the banks were to blame is hilarious. Fair play to you for renting by the way, hopefully the day you're smarter than most and haven't blown your money on a house means that you've got a decent pension built up with your surplus income and you aren't depending on the tax payer to fund your retirement.

Yes I blame everyone in relation to Regulation. If you think the banks did not know what was going on I cannot help.

TimeToShine

jester77 wrote: »

Yeah, but if you take 2 people saving just 500 each a month then you are at 180k after 15 years, plus then add in your return on investment and you should be over 200k. Someone after 15 years of working can put a lot more than 500 away a month, so 300k is far from unrealistic.

I find it hard to believe that anyone like this was sitting pretty in 2011 with circa 120k and rather than buy elected to sit pretty and wait.

Gavlor

Yourself isit wrote: »

I rented during the boom and didn't buy. Major mistake. If I had bought and had a tracker mortgage I would have twice the house now at the same per monthly cost.

But it's not up to normal people to be financial experts.

No but it's up to normal people to know what they can/cannot afford.

darkpagandeath

Yourself isit wrote: »

I rented during the boom and didn't buy. Major mistake. If I had bought and had a tracker mortgage I would have twice the house now at the same per monthly cost.

But it's not up to normal people to be financial experts.

That's why the banks pay huge wages to not have monkey remember :P

ZeroThreat

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

There are a tiny handful of areas like that left in Dublin. There are large areas people won't even dare look at, and I actually don't think it's purely down to safety. There is defiantly a snobbery about property in Dublin.

hah, I recall putting a link up on one particular thread a couple of years back to a nice looking SD for sale on a quiet cul-de-sac off St. Mary's road.

I got a reply something like of 'ughh, why would I be interested in a house in crumlin, I want to leave alongside doctors and bankers, not tradesmen and white van owners'.
Says it all really, although I suspect boards.ie contains a higher proportion of snobs than the general population.

Ayuntamiento

darkpagandeath wrote: »

True but you could gather from the size of the deposit and ask basic questions. Most people would not think ahead to much and have thought about how to answer. Along with allowing multiples of wages was the other issue.

All you have to do is say that it was a gift from your parents and get them to sign a gift letter.

Most people would combine it with their own bit of savings so it doesn't stick out as much.

Plenty of idiots out there who are still dying to over-burden themselves with debt.

Gavlor

darkpagandeath wrote: »

True but you could gather from the size of the deposit and ask basic questions. Most people would not think ahead to much and have thought about how to answer. Along with allowing multiples of wages was the other issue.

Idiots don't think ahead.

darkpagandeath

Gavlor wrote: »

No but it's up to normal people to know what they can/cannot afford.

I used to be sent CC offers Gold, Platinum like most of people in my industry. You think allowing someone to buy on 100-110% mortgages was not the banks fault. Also allowing dodge wage calculations.

Yourself isit

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

The CU loan for a deposit still happens today. There's ways to do it that the bank won't find out about. The fact that people still do it shows that you can't save everybody from themselves.

How can the banks not work out that the deposit isn't saved? They are looking for proof of savings anyway regardless of the deposit.

Ayuntamiento

Yourself isit wrote: »

How can the banks not work out that the deposit isn't saved? They are looking for proof of savings anyway regardless of the deposit.

As I stated above, it's easily passed off as a 'family gift' in many cases.

darkpagandeath

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

All you have to do is say that it was a gift from your parents and get them to sign a gift letter.

Most people would combine it with their own bit of savings so it doesn't stick out as much.

Plenty of idiots out there who are still dying to over-burden themselves with debt.

So you are saying financial experts are incompetent and cannot ask Questions ? Where I am from you get put though the ringer for a mortgage. Extremely detailed financial information is Required. 20k suddenly showing up in your bank account would be a red flag even as a gift you would be asked for a transfer trail.

Yourself isit

Gavlor wrote: »

No but it's up to normal people to know what they can/cannot afford.

It's up to the banks to stress test that.

Again who are the supposed experts here?

Gavlor

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I used to be sent CC offers Gold, Platinum like most of people in my industry. You think allowing someone to buy on 100-110% mortgages was not the banks fault. Also allowing dodge wage calculations.

Do you seriously believe that people didn't realise they were over stretching and taking mortgages that they could not afford?? That it wasn't all about keeping up with the Jonses???

Sure the financial institutions, particularly the regulater acted irresponsibly but the greed of the general public was the main issue.

Samuel T. Cogley

It's absolutely human nature to go for broke, it's absolutely the job of the banks to make sure people aren't. Let's not pretend like either party is blameless here or that shenanigans don't go on.

Gavlor

Yourself isit wrote: »

It's up to the banks to stress test that.

Again who are the supposed experts here?

They did stress test?? Stress test should have been a limit not a target. But joe soap saw the stress test max amount as his mortgage

darkpagandeath

Gavlor wrote: »

Do you seriously believe that people didn't realise they were over stretching and taking mortgages that they could not afford?? That it wasn't all about keeping up with the Jonses???

Sure the financial institutions, particularly the regulater acted irresponsibly but the greed of the general public was the main issue.

Look you are getting me wrong on absolving everyone. Yes plenty did this. But plenty got told to via media or the banks. I was saying to mates now crippled in houses in negative equity don't buy. Thy called me a fool. You could see with the amount of credit around something was very very wrong.

Ayuntamiento

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So you are saying financial experts are incompetent and cannot ask Questions ? Where I am from you get put though the ringer for a mortgage. Extremely detailed financial information is Required. 20k suddenly showing up in your bank account would be a red flag even as a gift you would be asked for a transfer trail.

I've heard of it working for other people. Obviously i'm not privy to their bank accounts but I don't know why they would have reason to lie to me about it.

Also have you ever been on the saving for a mortgage thread on boards. Many posters mention getting 'gifts' from their family which they have every intention of paying back once the mortgage is drawn down.

The Rape of Lucretia

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Yes I blame everyone in relation to Regulation. If you think the banks did not know what was going on I cannot help.

It takes two to tango. Yes, the banks were incompetent, did not run their affairs well. But they people were equally at fault, and didnt have the wit to resist cheap credit, save, or consider that they party might not continue for ever. Both acted very poorly. But to jointly sleep walk into one crash may be regarded as misfortune, but to do so twice looks like carelessness, and would knock us a notch below the Greeks, current holders of the dumbest country in Europe, exacerbated by being more corrupt and tax cheating than the rest. But we will steal their crown if we get it wrong so quickly again, while the price is still being paid for the the last bout of senselessness.

Gavlor

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It's absolutely human nature to go for broke, it's absolutely the job of the banks to make sure people aren't. Let's not pretend like either party is blameless here or that shenanigans don't go on.

Agreed, I probably didn't articulate my point well enough but it was that the house buyers are just as much to blame as the banks. Yet it suits the socialist agenda to blame the financial institutions every time.

darkpagandeath

Gavlor wrote: »

Agreed, I probably didn't articulate my point well enough but it was that the house buyers are just as much to blame as the banks. Yet it suits the socialist agenda to blame the financial institutions every time.

I think we have to agree the issue is both ways. We cannot absolve everyone. But we can expect Financial institutions to be the buffer. And they failed in that demonstrably.

Gavlor

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I think we have to agree the issue is both ways. We cannot absolve everyone. But we can expect Financial institutions to be the buffer. And they failed in that demonstrably.

I'm just amazed that developers haven't been mentioned yet

Edit, it also has to be remembered that financial institutions are for profit organisations and as such will always take the most profitable route. Hence the need for effective regulation, something that was abhorrently lacking between 2000-2010

jester77

TimeToShine wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that anyone like this was sitting pretty in 2011 with circa 120k and rather than buy elected to sit pretty and wait.

You don't think there are couples that have had kids in the last 6 years? Circumstances change. In 2011 I was happily renting and didn't have kids. Since then I have kids and purchased a house.

hmmm

Yourself isit wrote: »

I rented during the boom and didn't buy. Major mistake. If I had bought and had a tracker mortgage I would have twice the house now at the same per monthly cost.

But it's not up to normal people to be financial experts.

You were punished for doing the right thing, and it's a lesson a lot of us have learned. The people who bought beyond what they could afford simply didn't bother paying their mortgages, while people who rented because they were prudent were screwed. It's easier to rant about the "bankers" than it is to do what is prudent in the longer term and repossess assets when people can't afford to repay their loans.

Now of course everyone is scratching their heads wondering why banks aren't lending, and why our interest rates are high compared to other countries.

darkpagandeath

Gavlor wrote: »

I'm just amazed that developers haven't been mentioned yet

Sure, There another issue and thread... houses out in the middle of nowhere.

darkpagandeath

hmmm wrote: »

You were punished for doing the right thing, and it's a lesson a lot of us have learned. The people who bought beyond what they could afford simply didn't bother paying their mortgages, while people who rented because they were prudent were screwed. It's easier to rant about the "bankers" than it is to do what is prudent in the longer term and repossess assets when people can't afford to repay their loans.

Now of course everyone is scratching their heads wondering why banks aren't lending, and why our interest rates are high compared to other countries.

That would have been more to do with having to pay the tax payer back. Mortgages are available again pretty much in all. Also they are under the eye of a Central bank that is kind of watching now. Still pretty useless but meh.

hmmm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

But plenty got told to via media or the banks.

These very forums were full back in 2006 of posts about how people were going to become rich from buying property, how "rent was dead money" and how people were stupid for "not getting on the ladder".

Now apparently it was all the banks that told them to do it. If there's one thing we know about Irish people, it's that they don't need banks to convince them that they're going to make a fortune through property.

Ash.J.Williams

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

The houses looked decent enough.

Looks like there's a major property bubble emerging. And we are sleepwalking into the same crisis as before.

Although the underlying causes are different. Supply and demand this time..... global recession after a boom last time.

I was looking to buy a house back in 2006. Swept up in the same madness... like an infection. We left Dublin and dodged the bullet by sheer good luck. Considered €500k for houses that would have lost 50% value in a year.

just noticed today, hoarding up all over dublin and branded with all the old big names we were familiar with ...

The Rape of Lucretia

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I think we have to agree the issue is both ways. We cannot absolve everyone. But we can expect Financial institutions to be the buffer. And they failed in that demonstrably.

'The banks' are not however a machine, divorced from the rest of the country or the people. They are Irish. And staffed and run by Irish people. So incompetent Irish banks and incompetent Irish borrowers ****ed up (many literally the same individuals). Finger pointing at 'the banks' is a sure sign that little or nothing has been learned and the country is as naive and incompetent as it was 10 years ago.

The Rape of Lucretia

hmmm wrote: »

Now of course everyone is scratching their heads wondering why banks aren't lending, and why our interest rates are high compared to other countries.

And jumping up and down about why the central bank has restricted access, and putting pressure on politicians to loosen the criteria. Really. Will these people ever learn ?

Spanish Eyes

Banks are rubbing their hands together now. Big bonuses, again.

Gavlor

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Banks are rubbing their hands together now. Big bonuses, again.

Because the brainless idiots are queuing at the door with applications.

"Build it and they will come"

Yourself isit

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

As I stated above, it's easily passed off as a 'family gift' in many cases.

They can trace the deposit back. Unless you got it years ago it will be clearly a loan.

Also they still look for savings.

Ayuntamiento

Yourself isit wrote: »

They can trace the deposit back. Unless you got it years ago it will be clearly a loan.

Also they still look for savings.

I've seen it working for people I know but you clearly feel the need to be right on this one so knock yourself out

Yourself isit

Gavlor wrote: »

They did stress test?? Stress test should have been a limit not a target. But joe soap saw the stress test max amount as his mortgage

Joe soap doesn't do the stress test. It was the banks. The reason prices rose is because of cheap credit. The banks caused this credit glut. Expecting that normal people will refuse credit when the banks are telling them that they are good for it is to get the blame arse over tit.

As it happened the only people who were in danger of being repossessed were the people who lost their jobs. The bust was not caused by increases in interest rates. If you kept your job and got had a tracker payments were easy. It was the drop of in construction activity, the developer over leveraging etc that caused the bust. Not joe soap.

Yourself isit

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

And jumping up and down about why the central bank has restricted access, and putting pressure on politicians to loosen the criteria. Really. Will these people ever learn ?

Whose is doing that? Certainly not joe soap - developers for sure. Some banks. The property "journalists".

Yourself isit

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

I've seen it working for people I know but you clearly feel the need to be right on this one so knock yourself out

Admitting defeat then.

I've been through the process. I am telling you how it works. These days you can't hide the loan. I gave them 2 years statements of a bank account in a different country because I transferred money from the UK for the deposit. They were looking for a loan over there.

Ayuntamiento

Yourself isit wrote: »

Admitting defeat then.

I've been through the process. I am telling you how it works. These days you can't hide the loan. I gave them 2 years statements of a bank account in a different country because I transferred money from the UK for the deposit. They were looking for a loan over there.

Yeah of course. You're on a bit of a monologue now Over and out!

The Rape of Lucretia

Yourself isit wrote: »

Whose is doing that? Certainly not joe soap - developers for sure. Some banks. The property "journalists".

The Irish :

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/third-of-firsttime-buyers-seek-relaxation-of-central-banks-rules-on-home-loans-34735957.html

And Joe Soap.