Dublin Airport Fastest Growing in Europe

ClovenHoof

The debate on the airport rail connection needs to end now.

I would argue that the "this or that" musical chairs be replaced with Dubiln airport being connected to Luas, Metro and Dart.

All three, not "which one?"

Sam Russell

The Clongriffin connection is easy - it is only 7.5 km over open countryside. They already have the station built at Clongriffin.

MN will take a good few years from when they decide the route, the gauge, the colour of the trains, the length of the platform, what they are going to call it, etc. etc. etc.

Luas will make its slow way out at street level via Drumcondra, Phibsboro, Glasnevin, Ballymun, Finglass, Harristown, where a bus connection will take you to the airport. But it will be cheaper - or not. Never mind the capacity issue.

Hmm.. I think we need a new Minister.

hytrogen

*puts the crayons away and dusts off the ballot box..

Infini

The rail connection is the easiest to be done. The only reason it wasnt was because instead of the actual 200m odd cost that IR quoted it was linked in with other stuff by the council to inflate it to 1bil so it could be rejected. Stupidity at its finest.

n97 mini

DAA don't want a rail link. Too much money from car parks to be made.

hytrogen

n97 mini wrote:

DAA don't want a rail link. Too much money from car parks to be made.

Don't forget the taxis and shuttle bus crowd

Sam Russell

n97 mini wrote: »

DAA don't want a rail link. Too much money from car parks to be made.

Well Pascal's response (while Minister for Transport) when Dublin Airport announced another bumper year of record passenger numbers was - 'they need more car parks' - you could not make it up.

trellheim

A direct rail link from Clongriffin is by far the worst answer, because of the "looks simple but actually isn't" nature of it

you'd need huge investment in the northern line from Grand Canal Dock all the way out to get the frequency needed - think LUAS type frequency - cos it would have to be something non stop to Connolly and look at the issues we have at the moment just trying to path a few extra PTT services , and thats AFTER an upgraded signalling.

thisisadamh

trellheim wrote: »

A direct rail link from Clongriffin is by far the worst answer, because of the "looks simple but actually isn't" nature of it

you'd need huge investment in the northern line from Grand Canal Dock all the way out to get the frequency needed - think LUAS type frequency - cos it would have to be something non stop to Connolly and look at the issues we have at the moment just trying to path a few extra PTT services , and thats AFTER an upgraded signalling.

The service from GCD could have high frequency (replacing the Malahide and Howth services) with the Malahide and Howth services running as shuttles from Clongriffin and Howth Junction respectively.

Sam Russell

trellheim wrote: »

A direct rail link from Clongriffin is by far the worst answer, because of the "looks simple but actually isn't" nature of it

you'd need huge investment in the northern line from Grand Canal Dock all the way out to get the frequency needed - think LUAS type frequency - cos it would have to be something non stop to Connolly and look at the issues we have at the moment just trying to path a few extra PTT services , and thats AFTER an upgraded signalling.

The Clongriffin spur is a good solution if you want a solution now (or soon).

It is a good solution if DU goes ahead. It is a good interim solution until MN gets built - like for the next decade. It is a good solution as a direct connection from Dublin Airport to Connolly with a 15 min frequency - not a Dart service but integrated with Dart.

The problem with the PPT service is that it has not been bedded in correctly, only runs at the busiest time, and requires a few more paths at Connolly to work properly. The busiest time for the Airport is not the same busy time for Connolly. Passengers and staff do not need transport at the same time, and the 9-5 type workers do not work at the airport.

Clontarf needs to be remodelled to allow passing for northern services (and airport bound) to pass Dart services - not a big ask, I would have thought. Equally, GCD could be used as a turnaround for the Airport service off peak.

The new signalling service was specified for 20 movements an hour (each way). That is one every three minutes. Lets use that capacity.

hytrogen

trellheim wrote:

A direct rail link from Clongriffin is by far the worst answer, because of the "looks simple but actually isn't" nature of it
you'd need huge investment in the northern line from Grand Canal Dock all the way out to get the frequency needed - think LUAS type frequency - cos it would have to be something non stop to Connolly and look at the issues we have at the moment just trying to path a few extra PTT services , and thats AFTER an upgraded signalling.

Not if you extend some ICR Services to terminate at the airport, and as Sam Russell suggests, diverting some DART services to link to the main Dublin stations, it's a great immediate solution.
It's all about giving people effective and efficient choice, what mode of transport suits them best to get them where they need to go. Rail, be it light heavy under or overground offers that effective service without the delays of street traffic, ghost buses or over priced taxis, a module which many of our international visitors and European counterparts prefer. They accept hire car but that brings it's own stresses particularly since they typically drive on the wrong side of the road in their home countries.
The only headache would be for the schedulers adapting to the changes, you're not one of them btw?

n97 mini

Every train doesn't need need to go to the city centre. I don't know why people have this obsession. A shuttle between the airport and Clongriffin, a sort of longer version of what is in BHX, would be better than no shuttle at all, would not interfere with existing services, and has the most realistic chance of being built as it'd be relatively cheap.

Sam Russell

n97 mini wrote: »

Every train doesn't need need to go to the city centre. I don't know why people have this obsession. A shuttle between the airport and Clongriffin, a sort of longer version of what is in BHX, would be better than no shuttle at all, would not interfere with existing services, and has the most realistic chance of being built as it'd be relatively cheap.

Not only would it be cheap but could be built very quickly, given the will. The plans are there, and some of the station is already built.

My version would have a 15 min service to Connolly, journey time would be 15 to 17 min, with maybe half stopping at Clongriffin. If Clontarf was modified to allow passing, that would speed northern line trains to pass Darts at both Clotarf and Clongriffin.

After DU is built, the service could allow direct connection from the Airport to Heuston and Hazlehatch for connection to IC trains going south. Routing and frequency would be adapted depending on take up. With 25 million passengers per year and a workforce of 25,000, the trains would be very popular.

trellheim

Every train doesn't need need to go to the city centre. I don't know why people have this obsession. A shuttle between the airport and Clongriffin, a sort of longer version of what is in BHX, would be better than no shuttle at all, would not interfere with existing services, and has the most realistic chance of being built as it'd be relatively cheap.

Yes it does need to go to the city centre - turfing people out at an interchange station for no good reason is worse than useless in my book.

You need fast and frequent LUAS type departures - less than every 10 mins apart - to make it viable, plus absolutely non stop with maybe a single change inbound ; I like the idea of ICRs - you could start Cork trains from there if you reverse at Connolly

Manchester is kind of my model in my head here - you don't really need to wait theres a tram or a train going < every couple of mins and fasties and slows are fitted in very well and there's a really good mix of Intercity and locals

That said once you get closer into Manchester there's serious infrastructure to avoid trains congesting each other - which we don't have and would have to fix - which was my point above - DU and MN the better answer cos it fixes stuff properly

Sam Russell

trellheim wrote: »

DU and MN the better answer cos it fixes stuff properly

But those are at least a decade away, assuming they go with the original plans, which they have said need redrawing so they can have yet another go at them to make them cheaper better.

It is better to build something now so we get some relief rather than wait for perfection. There is no definite route for MN. No definite tunnel design. No definite way to go through Ballymun, if they choose to go that way. As I say, at least a decade.

By the way, how is the children's hospital coming on? You know the one that was to be built in the Mater Blachardstown James? Is it finished yet? Remember Bertie wanted it in his constituency on de North side. It is over a decade since he left office.

Jamie2k9

Sam Russell wrote: »

But those are at least a decade away, assuming they go with the original plans, which they have said need redrawing so they can have yet another go at them to make them cheaper better.

It is better to build something now so we get some relief rather than wait for perfection. There is no definite route for MN. No definite tunnel design. No definite way to go through Ballymun, if they choose to go that way. As I say, at least a decade.

By the way, how is the children's hospital coming on? You know the one that was to be built in the Mater Blachardstown James? Is it finished yet? Remember Bertie wanted it in his constituency on de North side. It is over a decade since he left office.

If the DART was built (no capacity, despite all the re signalling rubbish, been able to run 20 trains at 10mph as opposed to maybe 10-12 at 30 mph) is not a solution and it would just result in MN been delayed even longer.
_______

You should take the stats with a big health warning, there is already big changes for 2017 and it's un clear what will happen over next 2-3 years.

Jamie2k9

n97 mini wrote: »

Every train doesn't need need to go to the city centre. I don't know why people have this obsession. A shuttle between the airport and Clongriffin, a sort of longer version of what is in BHX, would be better than no shuttle at all, would not interfere with existing services, and has the most realistic chance of being built as it'd be relatively cheap.

Not at all practical, BHX is a completely different set up.

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If the DART was built (no capacity, despite all the re signalling rubbish, been able to run 20 trains at 10mph as opposed to maybe 10-12 at 30 mph) is not a solution and it would just result in MN been delayed even longer.
_______

You should take the stats with a big health warning, there is already big changes for 2017 and it's un clear what will happen over next 2-3 years.

I have no idea what you are talking about - what stats?.

20 trains per hour is a train every three minutes. Where did the 10 mph come from? I understood the 20 trains per hour was operating on green signals, not single yellow ones - because if they were they could not sustain 20 trains per hour.

MN is not delayed by the Connolly signal project. It is not delayed by the PPT trains (but every thing else appears to be).

MN is delayed by total incompetence of the politicians. They could build the Port Tunnel. They can build a big fully specced motorway from Gort to Tuam - two small towns in the west of Ireland that would need every resident of each of them to travel to the other town every day to justify it. They can build two Luas lines in Dublin that do not join up, merely cross each other. It is not possible to get a Luas from SSG to Heuston, nor will it ever be as there is no common stop on the two lines and no tam can go from one line to the other while carrying passengers.

However MN and DU (and the M20) are just too much for them.

Jamie2k9

Sam Russell wrote: »

I have no idea what you are talking about - what stats?.

20 trains per hour is a train every three minutes. Where did the 10 mph come from? I understood the 20 trains per hour was operating on green signals, not single yellow ones - because if they were they could not sustain 20 trains per hour.

MN is not delayed by the Connolly signal project. It is not delayed by the PPT trains (but every thing else appears to be).

MN is delayed by total incompetence of the politicians. They could build the Port Tunnel. They can build a big fully specced motorway from Gort to Tuam - two small towns in the west of Ireland that would need every resident of each of them to travel to the other town every day to justify it. They can build two Luas lines in Dublin that do not join up, merely cross each other. It is not possible to get a Luas from SSG to Heuston, nor will it ever be as there is no common stop on the two lines and no tam can go from one line to the other while carrying passengers.

However MN and DU (and the M20) are just too much for them.

Stats comment was general and not specific to you in relation to fastest growing airport in Europe etc.

As for signalling capacity in the city center it's not at all based on Green signals. Like anything more trains in the system the slower they run just like the more traffic on a road the slower it moves. You need extra tracks to increase capacity.

IE and the NTA have not been honest with their PR around the signalling systems, yes it allows more services but it also slows down services (just look at the previous 10 minute DART proposal) which added a few minutes to all services. Some will also argue that the extra 2 services via PPT have had a sizable impact on punctuality in the city center and that's just two extra services, just put in another 3 or 4 services and that impact triples.

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If the DART was built (no capacity, despite all the re signalling rubbish, been able to run 20 trains at 10mph as opposed to maybe 10-12 at 30 mph) is not a solution and it would just result in MN been delayed even longer.

Could you explain exactly what the bold part means? It makes no sense to me at all.

Why would anything Dart related have any impact on MN? They are totally unrelated projects.

n97 mini

trellheim wrote: »

Yes it does need to go to the city centre - turfing people out at an interchange station for no good reason is worse

The free shuttle works perfectly in BHX. It's a damn site better than a bus. And Clongriffin could become a major interchange station with bus routes (as well as rail) complimenting the shuttle.

n97 mini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not at all practical, BHX is a completely different set up.

How? It's doing 10m passengers a year and it needed a quick and cheap connection to the local rail network.

People need to get real here. DU will never be built, and MN isn't far behind.

Geuze

Sam Russell wrote: »

They can build two Luas lines in Dublin that do not join up, merely cross each other. It is not possible to get a Luas from SSG to Heuston, nor will it ever be as there is no common stop on the two lines and no tam can go from one line to the other while carrying passengers.

Off-topic, but is this true?

IE 222

MN is a waste of time and money and is going to end up been an extension of the green line. Building this seperate infrastructure and putting all our focus on this one line is going to neglect further on our current rail network which is crying out for investment.

My vision would be to build Clongriffin to airport by summer 2018 with 4 tracking from Spur to Howth Jct.

Build DU with some changes which allow for trains to enter from Northern and Maynooth lines. Tunnel to Connolly, College green, Christchurch, The Liberties and onto Inchicore as planned. Drop St. Stephens Green as luas will cover this from Broombridge or College Green.

4 tracking between Connolly to west of Harmonstown station, upgrade of Clontarf and Killester needed. 4 tracking would be in place between Spur and Howth Jct. already, continue 4 tracking just south of Portmarnmock and start a cut and cover tunnelling of 4 tracking for Dart to Malahide. Continue tunnelling to Swords, Airport, Santry, Finglas and Broombridge resurface. Create a new connection and terminal station upper and lower levels on the island of land behind Claremont where PPT, LUAS CROSS CITY & Maynooth line will all meet.

Electrify to M3 parkway with future expansion to Ratoath and Ashbourne instead of Navan. Navan can be connected via Drogheda and Northern line which will have more capacity due to the 4 tracking from Malahide.

Run Maynooth and if there is enough budget to remodel Glasnevin Jct PPT services also via Newcom JCT into Connolly with a new station ato Jones Rd with entrance from Dorset st and Croke Park.

This will create 2 Dart lines, Ashbourne to Hazelhatch & Broombridge to Greystones. Clongriffin spur can then allow a express limited stops AER DART run to Hueston via DU.

Massive savings would come from the shorter tunnelling of DU and no longer having a need for tunnelling MN in the city. More cut and cover technics around the Airport, Portmarnmock and Swords will also allow for big savings. The savings would cover a lot of the cost of 4 tracking out of Connolly.

Swords DART line would offer 2 city centre routes in either direction by: via Northern Line or connection with DART, LUAS or COMMUTER on Western Line.

newacc2015

Im amazed this thread got this far without someone mentioning all the growth at Dublin airport should be split between Cork and some other airport that no one has a desire to go to. A lot of people would rather we have 3/4 half baked airports than one massive one and a few smaller airports. Despite the fact the massive one (Dublin Airport) has about 40% of the population of Ireland within a 100km and majority of business travellers/tourists visiting Dublin

If Dublin Airport keeps growing at this pace we might actually have massive employment at it which is the case with the likes of Munich and Heathrow. Dublin is benefiting hugely from Brits transiting in Dublin for transatlantic rather than going to Heathrow. Dublin will continue to benefit as more low cost airlines open from it. Dublin might become a massive international airport and it makes sense. It has decent connecting flights to the UK and most of Europe at affordable prices, which is not the case for a lot of Europe

My only fear is that TD will put pressure on DAA to spread the passenger numbers ie move flights to Shannon or Cork for jobs

newacc2015

Im amazed this thread got this far without someone mentioning all the growth at Dublin airport should be split between Cork and some other airport that no one has a desire to go to. A lot of people would rather we have 3/4 half baked airports than one massive one and a few smaller airports. Despite the fact the massive one (Dublin Airport) has about 40% of the population of Ireland within a 100km and majority of business travellers/tourists visiting Dublin

If Dublin Airport keeps growing at this pace we might actually have massive employment at it which is the case with the likes of Munich and Heathrow. Dublin is benefiting hugely from Brits transiting in Dublin for transatlantic rather than going to Heathrow. Dublin will continue to benefit as more low cost airlines open from it. Dublin might become a massive international airport and it makes sense. It has decent connecting flights to the UK and most of Europe at affordable prices, which is not the case for a lot of Europe

My only fear is that TD will put pressure on DAA to spread the passenger numbers ie move flights to Shannon or Cork for jobs

uxiant

n97 mini wrote: »

Every train doesn't need need to go to the city centre. I don't know why people have this obsession. A shuttle between the airport and Clongriffin, a sort of longer version of what is in BHX, would be better than no shuttle at all, would not interfere with existing services, and has the most realistic chance of being built as it'd be relatively cheap.

Already takes 17 minutes to get to Connolly from Clongriffen before you even take into account the trip from the airport and the switch of trains. Never taken the 747 bus before but apparently it's only 30 minutes to BusAras from the airport. The train just won't be quick enough to make a difference.

A proper metro needs to be built from Stephen's Green to the airport and DART underground from Docklands to west Dublin via Stephen's Green and Heuston.

Sam Russell

Geuze wrote: »

Off-topic, but is this true?

Sorry for the OT.

You are quoting an aside to my post, but yes - it is true. The red and green line cross on O'Connell St and just North of the Rosie Hackett bridge. There is a provision for trams to cross from one line to the other but it is solely for transferring rolling stock. In order to use the one at the Rosie Hackett bridge, it has to change direction - that is, the driver has to get out of his cab and go to the other cab to drive the tram the other direction.

Also the nearest stop to the crossover is Abbey on the Red line, and O'Connell St and Marlborough St on the Green. About half a Kilometre apart.

You could not make this up - connecting up the Luas lines - not.

markpb

Sam Russell wrote: »

They can build two Luas lines in Dublin that do not join up, merely cross each other. It is not possible to get a Luas from SSG to Heuston, nor will it ever be as there is no common stop on the two lines and no tram can go from one line to the other while carrying passengers.

Geuze wrote: »

Off-topic, but is this true?

It's only partly true. There will be a connection between the two lines but only to move out-of-service trams, never for passenger movements. Anyway it's a total red herring. A connection between red line @ Abbey St and green line @ O'Connell St will be a 300m walk. This is perfectly acceptable to train/tram passengers all around the world. Connecting every line to every other line just makes the system complicated for passengers (look at RER with their random stopping patterns and four letter codes that passengers have to understand) and operationally complex.

In any case, I'm not sure how you'd make the red and green lines cross at a proper interchange station. If LCC had been dragged east towards Connolly, it might have been possible but that would have made the line a lot longer and possibly a lot slower.

n97 mini wrote: »

And Clongriffin could become a major interchange station with bus routes (as well as rail) complimenting the shuttle.

I'm not sure the location of Clongriffen dart station makes it a good place for an interchange station. It's nowhere near a main road or motorway. It's located at the back of a housing estate, all the access roads are littered with ramps and bad parking.

newacc2015 wrote: »

My only fear is that TD will put pressure on DAA to spread the passenger numbers ie move flights to Shannon or Cork for jobs

DAA appear to have become a very independent and aggressively commercial organisation. They're totally different to the Aer Rianta that preceded them. Any effort to be told to prioritise Cork or Shannon Airport would be met with short shrift. Even if DAA wanted it, I'm not sure the airlines would be keen on it. They might decide to take their investment elsewhere if Ireland were to impose silly conditions on them.

n97 mini

uxiant wrote: »

Already takes 17 minutes to get to Connolly from Clongriffen before you even take into account the trip from the airport and the switch of trains. Never taken the 747 bus before but apparently it's only 30 minutes to BusAras from the airport. The train just won't be quick enough to make a difference.

A proper metro needs to be built from Stephen's Green to the airport and DART underground from Docklands to west Dublin via Stephen's Green and Heuston.

At peak time the buses are overloaded. It could take 3 buses before you get on one. A rail shuttle would bring capacity. People would still be free to get the 747 to Busarus, but remember, Busarus isn't in itself a destination for anyone. Many will want to switch to trains and other buses to continue their journey.

A proper metro would be nice, but pigs will fly before one gets built. As I said above people need to be realistic about what's possible and what's not. A rail spur from Clongriffin is currently the only realistic option.

Sam Russell

uxiant wrote: »

Already takes 17 minutes to get to Connolly from Clongriffen before you even take into account the trip from the airport and the switch of trains. Never taken the 747 bus before but apparently it's only 30 minutes to BusAras from the airport. The train just won't be quick enough to make a difference.

A proper metro needs to be built from Stephen's Green to the airport and DART underground from Docklands to west Dublin via Stephen's Green and Heuston.

The Dart stops at every station - I would expect an Airport link would be express - no stop between the Airport and Connoolly. It is 15 km by rail, and averaging 75 km/hour it would take 12 minutes. Add 5 mins to negotiate the mess surrounding Connolly and you get 17 mins.

markpb

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Dart stops at every station - I would expect an Airport link would be express - no stop between the Airport and Connoolly. It is 15 km by rail, and averaging 75 km/hour it would take 12 minutes. Add 5 mins to negotiate the mess surrounding Connolly and you get 17 mins.

What about other traffic on the line? Or are you assuming an extra track or two being added between Clongriffen and Conolly?

n97 mini

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Dart stops at every station - I would expect an Airport link would be express - no stop between the Airport and Connoolly. It is 15 km by rail, and averaging 75 km/hour it would take 12 minutes. Add 5 mins to negotiate the mess surrounding Connolly and you get 17 mins.

That's more An Lár-ism and is effectively just duplicating the 747. At least stop at Clongriffin to allow changes to northbound services.

My preference is still for a shuttle. No interference with existing services and there is counter flow DART revenue to be had (i.e. much airport passenger traffic will be flowing in opposite directions to commuter passenger traffic, meaning plenty of capacity on existing trains).

Not sure if everyone has seen this.

https://www.engineersireland.ie/EngineersIreland/media/SiteMedia/groups/societies/roads-tranport/Dublin-Airport-DART-Link-November-23rd-2011.pdf?ext=.pdf

Sam Russell

n97 mini wrote: »

That's more An Lár-ism and is effectively just duplicating the 747. At least stop at Clongriffin to allow changes to northbound services.

Stopping at Clongriffin makes sense if the traffic is there, but that is a lesser question and would depend on the frequency of the service.

The major requirement is to get it built and decide the details of stops and frequency for later. Remember the Dart started with two coach trains between Howth and Bray, and now runs eight coaches between Greystones and Malahide/Howth with a proposed ten minute service.

The spur could be built very quickly as it is over open countryside, with only DAA the only real opposition. We should get on with it as the other rail projects will not be there for more than a decade.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

But those are at least a decade away, assuming they go with the original plans, which they have said need redrawing so they can have yet another go at them to make them cheaper better.

It is better to build something now so we get some relief rather than wait for perfection. There is no definite route for MN. No definite tunnel design. No definite way to go through Ballymun, if they choose to go that way. As I say, at least a decade.

By the way, how is the children's hospital coming on? You know the one that was to be built in the Mater Blachardstown James? Is it finished yet? Remember Bertie wanted it in his constituency on de North side. It is over a decade since he left office.

Actually, Metro North has planning permission and could be started shortly.

But Minister Ross says it's gold plated and needs to be redesigned.

Horace Cope

newacc2015 wrote: »

I'm amazed this thread got this far without someone mentioning all the growth at Dublin airport should be split between Cork and some other airport that no one has a desire to go to. A lot of people would rather we have 3/4 half baked airports than one massive one and a few smaller airports.

Our country cousins keep fighting with one another which will always prevent a proper power shift. For instance, Cork was prevented from running transatlantic flights because politicians in other areas of Ireland wanted flights to go through Shannon and Knock. So Cork was held back for years. Let's not forget the effect of the Shannon stop-over holding back Dublin airport over the years also.
If the West of Ireland is to prosper it needs an outsider running the country - you can't trust a politican from the West, they are clueless and too parochial. FFS Leinster has four airports to my knowledge, Dublin Gormanstown, Baldonnel and Weston - yet with a smaller population pool there are airports in Derry, Donegal, sligo , Mayo, Galway, Clare, Kerry and Cork, oh and Waterford (I'm ignoring Foynes in Limerick). So, as there are so many airports in the west, it's difficult to get proper connection hubs operating.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Despite the fact the massive one (Dublin Airport) has about 40% of the population of Ireland within a 100km and majority of business travellers/tourists visiting Dublin

This i believe is because the people of Leinster didn't choose to have an airport in every county - instead they choose the one airport where economies of scale could ensure there would be proper interconnections. This
added to more demand as people had more choice where to fly.

newacc2015 wrote: »

My only fear is that TD will put pressure on DAA to spread the passenger numbers ie move flights to Shannon or Cork for jobs

They can't because as i said above, one politician will say Cork, another not wanting to see Cork growing at the expense of Shannon, will oppose this, and fight for Shannon. Then a TD from the Knock area will oppose any money going to Shannon unless knock gets it. So, to avoid the controversy, the Government will avoid it.

Shedite27

Is the 747/Aircoarch far off capacity? Surely until we find a rail solution (MN) that can beat those services there's no point in building a slower connection.

ArmaniJeanss

Sam Russell wrote: »

Sorry for the OT.

You are quoting an aside to my post, but yes - it is true. The red and green line cross on O'Connell St and just North of the Rosie Hackett bridge. There is a provision for trams to cross from one line to the other but it is solely for transferring rolling stock. In order to use the one at the Rosie Hackett bridge, it has to change direction - that is, the driver has to get out of his cab and go to the other cab to drive the tram the other direction.

Also the nearest stop to the crossover is Abbey on the Red line, and O'Connell St and Marlborough St on the Green. About half a Kilometre apart.

You could not make this up - connecting up the Luas lines - not.

Its a bit less than that, about 250/300 metres between the O'Connell Stop and the Marlborough Green line stops.
But anyone transferring will be either transferring to or from the Abbey Red stop, so the average walking distance is roughly half that.

In my opinion this short distance means the two lines actually are connected.
The distance involved compares favourably with the journey you might have to make within a LU Tube station to swap
between Jubilee and Victoria lines ('down a corridor, up 2 elevators, down a corridor' is normal enough) and no-one would claim that as not being a proper connection.

Jamie2k9

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Dart stops at every station - I would expect an Airport link would be express - no stop between the Airport and Connoolly. It is 15 km by rail, and averaging 75 km/hour it would take 12 minutes. Add 5 mins to negotiate the mess surrounding Connolly and you get 17 mins.

That is just impossible, it would have to serve all stations, if it doesn't it will just be sitting at some stations or outside most.

Already takes 17 minutes to get to Connolly from Clongriffen before you even take into account the trip from the airport and the switch of trains. Never taken the 747 bus before but apparently it's only 30 minutes to BusAras from the airport. The train just won't be quick enough to make a difference.

30 minutes is about right, it's a great service.

At peak time the buses are overloaded. It could take 3 buses before you get on one.

3 hours to get on a 747???

Jamie2k9

n97 mini wrote: »

How? It's doing 10m passengers a year and it needed a quick and cheap connection to the local rail network.

People need to get real here. DU will never be built, and MN isn't far behind.

The Int station is on the West coast mainline and a major interchange. You could board a train to London from the airport but in Dublin to do the same for Cork you would need 2 trains and a Luas. You can apply the same logic all over Ireland with a DART spur.

You also don;t know what % of people use rail in BHX to travel to City Center or if the majority is beyond BHX. How does it compare to bus?

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Actually, Metro North has planning permission and could be started shortly.

But Minister Ross says it's gold plated and needs to be redesigned.

MN is not gold plated and it does need to go ahead as soon as possible. However, even if they started MN this year with the original plan, it will be a decade before they sell the first ticket.

On the other hand, if they started the Clongriffin spur, its construction time would be 18 months to 24 months, depending on the Airport end. They already have the rolling stock, and the finance would be €200 million as opposed to €3 billion.

Also, it is a stand alone project with no influence on the MN project in that the spur would target passengers and some employees, but MN is more a project for the North Side residents to commute into CC and most airport employees, particularly if it goes to Swords and onto Donabate.

Heathrow has a Paddington Express and the Piccadilly Line. Paddington Express is a premium service aimed at passengers, while the Piccadilly line is slow and cheaper with local stops that suits workers at the airport.

markpb

Sam Russell wrote:

On the other hand, if they started the Clongriffin spur, its construction time would be 18 months to 24 months, depending on the Airport end. They already have the rolling stock, and the finance would be €200 million as opposed to €3 billion.

But it lacks planning and a railway order so it wouldn't start for several years either.

Sam Russell

markpb wrote: »

But it lacks planning and a railway order so it wouldn't start for several years either.

True, but it is relatively simple with few landowners to deal with, and DAA is a Semi-state. It could also find EU funding.

However, it needs political will which is in short supply if CIE or railways are involved.

n97 mini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You could board a train to London from the airport

You cannot. There is no train station at the airport. There is a shuttle (AirRail Link) to the station at the NEC arena.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

but in Dublin to do the same for Cork you would need 2 trains and a Luas. You can apply the same logic all over Ireland with a DART spur.

All of which suit your argument while ignoring the ones that don't: the Belfast, Wexford and Sligo lines.

n97 mini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

3 hours to get on a 747???

What are you on about? The 747 departs every 10 minutes.

Sam Russell

Also, the spur takes on greater significance when/after DU is built. The Airport - SSG - Heuston link because the default service.

The spur is cheap and fast to build, and is a great building block for a real rail network. It could also facilitate a Belfast - Airport service, should traffic deem it worthwhile.

Jamie2k9

You cannot. There is no train station at the airport. There is a shuttle (AirRail Link) to the station at the NEC arena.

You know what I mean, after the shuttle to the International station you can board a train and travel to many towns/cities in the Midlands without having to travel by shuttle, followed by another train to New Street and change again.

All of which suit your argument while ignoring the ones that don't: the Belfast, Wexford and Sligo lines.

Good point but they are just 3 routes, of which one (Belfast) has good scope to benefit however journey times are just no able to back it up whatsoever.

n97 mini

Sam Russell wrote: »

It could also facilitate a Belfast - Airport service, should traffic deem it worthwhile.

I saw the figures recently but I can't find them now. Anyway, a significant amount of DUB traffic originates in Belfast and the wider NI as there is a lot more choice than out of Belfast.

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

That is just impossible, it would have to serve all stations, if it doesn't it will just be sitting at some stations or outside most.

In post 10, I said

Clontarf needs to be remodelled to allow passing for northern services (and airport bound) to pass Dart services - not a big ask, I would have thought. Equally, GCD could be used as a turnaround for the Airport service off peak.

Effectively, north of Clontarf into Connolly should have four track available for high speed travel (by that I mean not restricted to 10 mph). That would allow the Airport Express to pass Darts at Clongriffin and before Clontarf.

These are all details that would make the service work. Even a Dart service would be better than the nothing that is there at the moment.

trellheim

All of which is straight back to my point way up there; none of this will work without massive infrastructure all the way in and with LUAS style frequencies needed < every 10 min you need to rebuild Connolly as well and you'd need to get them to the Southside which would be impossible at that frequency

Jamie2k9

Sam Russell wrote: »

In post 10, I said

Effectively, north of Clontarf into Connolly should have four track available for high speed travel (by that I mean not restricted to 10 mph). That would allow the Airport Express to pass Darts at Clongriffin and before Clontarf.

These are all details that would make the service work. Even a Dart service would be better than the nothing that is there at the moment.

I don't think work in Clontart would be enough at all, If you want a non stop service to have clear signals you would need at least 10 minute gap in departures from Connolly towards Clongriffin and even at line speed it would struggle to get clearance even in those 10 minutes.