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Cycle protest in dublin city centre

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,389 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Dublin is full of so many short, small narrow and winding streets (which give it so much of it's pedestrian mystery) that any attempt to sort out the traffic problems caused by combustion-engined carriages would mean a necessary levelling of buildings for the building of parallel streets and 90 degree corners to allow the vehicles easy progress, while allowing for tracked public transport. It would allow for cycles as well. So much would be needed to complete such a plan that it would be fought tooth ad nail by interested parties.

    An underground system should have been built decades ago. Berlin is now completing a section of its underground which was halted in the early 1930's due to the crash and the advent of the Nazis. Where there is a will there is a way. Until then, i can see this debate continuing without any improvement in actual traffic flow.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    One solution to the congestion both in Dublin and other regional cities is large park and ride/cycle facilities along all arteries into the city and improvements in public transport.

    Not everyone can or wants to cycle into work but if journey times and costs of public transport are an improvement on travelling by car then people will make a logical choice.

    I dont think cars should be banned from city centre but congestion charges or the likes should be applied. If congestion is reduced then bus becomes a much more viable option with increased rail and tram linkages along busier routes and priority for bus at all junctions. This would involve significant investment over the medium term and a longer term vision which is sorely lacking in current city planning.

    You can't ban cars as you said but there should be some sort of congestion charge.

    What is annoying me and lots of others is the "agenda".

    I have been saying for ages that there is a car = evil, cycle = good thing going on.

    The idiot in DCC wants to get rid of cars and promote cycling, while bus users get caught in the middle.

    Mention cars and you get the automatic " 200 killed and/or maimed by motorists " reply.

    The bus users always get shot down with "you could cycle" comments.

    Its the me, me, me.. I cycle and to hell with everyone else attitude.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,031 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    You can't ban cars as you said but there should be some sort of congestion charge.

    What is annoying me and lots of others is the "agenda".

    I have been saying for ages that there is a car = evil, cycle = good thing going on.

    The idiot in DCC wants to get rid of cars and promote cycling, while bus users get caught in the middle.

    Mention cars and you get the automatic " 200 killed and/or maimed by motorists " reply.

    The bus users always get shot down with "you could cycle" comments.

    Its the me, me, me.. I cycle and to hell with everyone else attitude.

    Yeh, "the agenda".

    Promoting more sustainable ways of mass transit and decreasing pollution.

    Pure evil, I tell ya.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    The idiot in DCC wants to get rid of cars and promote cycling, while bus users get caught in the middle.
    What makes him an idiot?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,575 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    kbannon wrote: »
    What makes him an idiot?

    Cus he wants to do it without ensuring theres enough viable alternatives for people like more buses Darts or Luas which most of are already pretty packed most mornings without refugee motorists being pushed onto them. Hes putting the cart before the horse.

    Also he's an idiot for many other reasons like the fact he's pretty mush responsible for killing Dun Laoighaire economically cus at the time Dundrum shopping centre was opening he decided removing public parking and increasing the price would encourage people to dun Laoighaire instead of Dundrum. But it didnt matter cus his pro-cycling agenda takes precedence above all other concerns.

    He also forced through the eyesore that is the new library there that is pretty universally reviled by most people from the area.

    He was also involved in the farce that was the decade it took to get construction started on the poolbeg incinerator and approving the obscene consultancy fees that went into it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Cus he wants to do it without ensuring theres enough viable alternatives for people like more buses Darts or Luas which most of are already pretty packed most mornings without refugee motorists being pushed onto them. Hes putting the cart before the horse.
    Sometimes you have to. Traffic management is always a balancing act. If you just throw more trams and darts onto the tracks, it means more delays at junctions, which can make everything move more slowly - not just the cars, but the public transport too.

    The problem is that a private vehicle is virtually always the most preferable mode of transport. People will happily delay themselves by 30 minutes if it means they get to sit in private.

    This means that incentivising other modes has limited effect. Even if public transport were free, the roads would still be jammed with cars.

    Which means that you also have to disincentivise private transport if you want the traffic to flow better. Not just make other modes better, but make cars worse.
    As unfair as that sounds, it's the only way out of this.

    Be honest with yourself - would you take the bus if it was ten minutes quicker than driving? Probably not. Would you take the bus if it was 45 minutes faster (door-to-door) than driving?

    You might say that making driving slower is not solving the problem of poor public transport, but public transport cannot get better or faster while the roads are still clogged with cars. So cars are going to have to be removed, either directly or by reducing them to second-class road users behind public transport and motor/cyclists.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    I'm sure we have all spotted glorious karmas and incidents by all modes depending, of course, on which mode of travel we are biased towards, or against.

    What's needed is more objectivity, but in the mean time who would like to keep the score ? - currently running at 5,607,804 for the motorists and 5,607,805 for the cyclists - oh yes, I'm slightly biased myself. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Well as a motorist and a cyclist. The only mode I am biased towards is road users who are compliant to the rules of the road and those who are not. An asshole cyclist and an asshole motorist are one in the same.

    True, but do you have any advice for all the cyclists who run red lights, like the advice you've given motorists in your post ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,779 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    railer201 wrote: »
    True, but do you have any advice for all the cyclists who run red lights, like the advice you've given motorists in your post ?

    Yes, just make sure no cars or pedestrians are coming. :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,575 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    seamus wrote: »
    Sometimes you have to. Traffic management is always a balancing act. If you just throw more trams and darts onto the tracks, it means more delays at junctions, which can make everything move more slowly - not just the cars, but the public transport too.

    The problem is that a private vehicle is virtually always the most preferable mode of transport. People will happily delay themselves by 30 minutes if it means they get to sit in private.

    This means that incentivising other modes has limited effect. Even if public transport were free, the roads would still be jammed with cars.

    Which means that you also have to disincentivise private transport if you want the traffic to flow better. Not just make other modes better, but make cars worse.
    As unfair as that sounds, it's the only way out of this.

    Be honest with yourself - would you take the bus if it was ten minutes quicker than driving? Probably not. Would you take the bus if it was 45 minutes faster (door-to-door) than driving?

    You might say that making driving slower is not solving the problem of poor public transport, but public transport cannot get better or faster while the roads are still clogged with cars. So cars are going to have to be removed, either directly or by reducing them to second-class road users behind public transport and motor/cyclists.

    I understand about disincentivisng private cars which i completely agree with and im not talking about incentivising public transport im simply talking about increasing capacity so when all the cars are forced off the roads there's enough public transport capacity to accommodate everyone who will suddenly not be driving which currently there definitely is not.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    Pinch Flat wrote: »
    Yes, just make sure no cars or pedestrians are coming. :pac:

    Brilliant - Hi fives all around in the hive for that one - well done pinch. :o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,779 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    railer201 wrote: »
    Brilliant - Hi fives all around in the hive for that one - well done pinch. :o

    I see motorists using this tactic at certain junctions near where I live - some of the quieter residential junctions at Roselawn and Porterstown in Dublin 15. Quick look left and right, and it's through the red we go.

    I think it's clear that cyclists and motorists breaking red lights is a daily occurrence, certainly on my commutes. Pretty much at every junction. It's a pretty endemic problem among both camps.

    One way to resolve this red light breaking that seems to be so associated with cyclists and an irritant of motorists is to allow left filtering on red - this is common in other EU countries and some US States, and helps the flow of traffic (both bikes and cars) where the way is clear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    Pinch Flat wrote: »
    I see motorists using this tactic at certain junctions near where I live - some of the quieter residential junctions at Roselawn and Porterstown in Dublin 15. Quick look left and right, and it's through the red we go.

    I think it's clear that cyclists and motorists breaking red lights is a daily occurrence, certainly on my commutes. Pretty much at every junction. It's a pretty endemic problem among both camps.

    One way to resolve this red light breaking that seems to be so associated with cyclists and an irritant of motorists is to allow left filtering on red - this is common in other EU countries and some US States, and helps the flow of traffic (both bikes and cars) where the way is clear.

    If the law is changed to accommodate left filtering, fine, at least the traffic who have green are on notice that such activity is legal and predictable. At the moment, one mode's justification for RRJ's is that the other mode does it, just adds to the already serious possibility of accidents or fatalities from breaking reds.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,674 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    railer201 wrote: »
    What's needed is more objectivity, but in the mean time who would like to keep the score ? -
    Sure - I'm happy to help.

    Killed by motorists last year: 160 - Killed by cyclists last year: 0

    Was that absolutely objective measure what you had in mind?
    prinzeugen wrote: »
    You can't ban cars as you said but there should be some sort of congestion charge.

    What is annoying me and lots of others is the "agenda".

    I have been saying for ages that there is a car = evil, cycle = good thing going on.

    The idiot in DCC wants to get rid of cars and promote cycling, while bus users get caught in the middle.

    Mention cars and you get the automatic " 200 killed and/or maimed by motorists " reply.

    The bus users always get shot down with "you could cycle" comments.

    Its the me, me, me.. I cycle and to hell with everyone else attitude.

    Haven't you heard - it is all down to BigCycling?

    https://twitter.com/search?vertical=default&q=%23bigcycling

    But anyway, just to clarify, it's really just me that keeps up the 200 killed (and many more maimed) - but it's not in response to any mention of cars. It is generally in response to 'cyclists are a menace on the roads' rants - when the data shows clearly, that cyclists aren't a menace on the roads. I know I don't need to tell you who is a menace on the roads.

    I really don't think I've ever heard or seen anyone telling bus users that 'you could cycle'. Would you have an example of this?

    How long will it take you to work out that Keegan is doing you a huge favour by promoting cycling? Every cyclist he can persuade out of a car onto their bike will reduce the size of your traffic jam, and reduce the costs of your health service, and reduce the climate emissions that you will eventually pay a share of.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Dr Crayfish




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    VinLieger wrote: »
    I understand about disincentivisng private cars which i completely agree with and im not talking about incentivising public transport im simply talking about increasing capacity so when all the cars are forced off the roads there's enough public transport capacity to accommodate everyone who will suddenly not be driving which currently there definitely is not.
    It is a chicken-and-egg issue though. In general where demand for the public transport increases, so too will the capacity. Luckily it's relatively easy; just buy more vehicles.

    Like I say, the problem with trying to front-load this extra capacity in preparation for the changes can make things worse. Increase bus and dart frequency can lead to bottlenecks and ultimately reducing the effective capacity of the service.

    Restricting the flow of vehicles won't lead to an overnight inability of people to get to work. There might be a couple of months of frustration until the service providers sort themselves out. But likely they have plans well in progress for handling this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    .......................................................
    Haven't you heard - it is all down to BigCycling?

    https://twitter.com/search?vertical=default&q=%23bigcycling

    But anyway, just to clarify, it's really just me that keeps up the 200 killed (and many more maimed) - but it's not in response to any mention of cars. It is generally in response to 'cyclists are a menace on the roads' rants - when the data shows clearly, that cyclists aren't a menace on the roads. I know I don't need to tell you who is a menace on the roads.

    I really don't think I've ever heard or seen anyone telling bus users that 'you could cycle'. Would you have an example of this?

    How long will it take you to work out that Keegan is doing you a huge favour by promoting cycling? Every cyclist he can persuade out of a car onto their bike will reduce the size of your traffic jam, and reduce the costs of your health service, and reduce the climate emissions that you will eventually pay a share of.

    But that's the point - some cyclists are a menace on the road - to themselves mostly, or do you not see this aberrant behaviour ?

    Not so much a rant as fact, unpalatable as it might be to cyclists like yourself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    Sure - I'm happy to help.

    Killed by motorists last year: 160 - Killed by cyclists last year: 0

    Was that absolutely objective measure what you had in mind?
    .

    No, we were talking about bias, you know, how some people always talk about how motorists are to blame for everything. ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,860 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    railer201 wrote: »
    No, we were talking about bias, you know, how some people always talk about how motorists are to blame for everything. ;)

    Yes, good point, you win! Facts are biased! EVERYBODY FACTS ARE BIASED! IT'S ALL A COVER UP BY THE BYCYCLE RIDING MEEDJA!!!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,674 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    railer201 wrote: »
    But that's the point - some cyclists are a menace on the road - to themselves mostly, or do you not see this aberrant behaviour ?

    Not so much a rant as fact, unpalatable as it might be to cyclists like yourself.

    The data would suggest otherwise, given the very low level of death and serious injuries to cyclists. Do you ever wonder why, for all the reports we get of menacing cyclists being a danger to themselves or other, the number of actual deaths or serious injuries is tiny? And conversely, do you ever wonder why we don't get frequent reports of menacing and dangerous motorists, given the relatively high level of deaths and injuries cause by motorists?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    The data would suggest otherwise, given the very low level of death and serious injuries to cyclists. Do you ever wonder why, for all the reports we get of menacing cyclists being a danger to themselves or other, the number of actual deaths or serious injuries is tiny? And conversely, do you ever wonder why we don't get frequent reports of menacing and dangerous motorists, given the relatively high level of deaths and injuries cause by motorists?

    Whatever you do, don't admit any wrongdoing on the part of cyclists. I'll leave debating it with you on this thread as clearly there is no meeting of minds.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,674 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    railer201 wrote: »
    Whatever you do, don't admit any wrongdoing on the part of cyclists. I'll leave debating it with you on this thread as clearly there is no meeting of minds.

    It if makes you happy, I will happy admit wrongdoing on the part of cyclists. I see cyclists do dumb stuff every day. I occasionally see cyclists doing stuff that endangers themselves. I very rarely see cyclists doing stuff that endangers other people. Happy now?

    But the data still doesn't lie. The data tells you exactly where the danger on the road lies. Thousands of people killed by motorists in the past decade. Zero killed by cyclists.

    And the main reason for this difference is not because cyclists are lovely, tree-hugging, vegan people and motorists are evil. The reason is that cars are big and heavy, and bikes are small and light.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Dr Crayfish


    This thread has jinxed cycling for me lately. I've got soaked loads of times in the past week or so. Especially this evening, lashed out of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,860 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    This thread has jinxed cycling for me lately. I've got soaked loads of times in the past week or so. Especially this evening, lashed out of it.

    Yeah, it was a bad one alright, a combination of heavy rain AND water vapor. Luckily it was on the way home as opposed to on the way to work :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Dr Crayfish


    Yeah, it was a bad one alright, a combination of heavy rain AND water vapor. Luckily it was on the way home as opposed to on the way to work :)

    And of course the second I got home it stopped, and now it's a nice night


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,674 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    And of course the second I got home it stopped, and now it's a nice night

    Yep, perfectly dry as I squelched through the garden to put the bike away - FFS


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Dr Crayfish


    Yep, perfectly dry as I squelched through the garden to put the bike away - FFS

    Oh well, just think of all the whales, tigers, and rainforests we saved by not burning fossil fuels :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,860 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    Yeah, all you drivers with asthmatic kids, take a bow!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    This thread has jinxed cycling for me lately. I've got soaked loads of times in the past week or so. Especially this evening, lashed out of it.

    Cycling is a bit like sailing - the old saying was - 'You might as well stand in a shower and tear up £5 notes'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    This thread has jinxed cycling for me lately. I've got soaked loads of times in the past week or so. Especially this evening, lashed out of it.
    Ah you get runs like that the odd time where you get soaked 3 or 4 times in the space of two weeks.

    Funny thing is you only remember the times you got soaked, not the countless times you made your trip without even a splash. In August/September in particular you'll generally go weeks without even a hint of drizzle during your commutes. But you don't remember the times something bad doesn't happen.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,575 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Deedsie wrote: »
    You could see efficiency improvements without purchasing a single new bus. The current Dublin bus fleet would be more efficient at completing its route if not delayed by traffic congestion. So say a single bus now completing the 46A route might get through 12 runs of the route per day. Without the delay of traffic congestion this could be increased to 15 to 20 runs of the route per day.

    That logic doesn't work for rush hour commuting times ie 7am-9/10am or 4pm-6/7pm when the buses are in need the most cus they still need to make their way back to the start of the route commuters are heading from which might negate any increased efficiency due to reduced traffic as the distance might simply be too far for them too have any effect by the time they start the route again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Rain never bothers me at all. Ice and wind are the two things that put me off. When winds get above 50 to 60 km/h it can get a bit hairy.
    True. Wind is the true enemy of cyclists.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,575 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Its not just one bus doing the route at a time. The removal of traffic congestion would improve efficiency of Dublin bus's fleet. To deny that is just ridiculous.

    What did I deny? Your missing the simple fact that if a route takes 1 hour regardless of traffic by the time it gets back to the point of origin to go in the direction that the commuters are rush hour is likely already over.

    Also I would argue traffic due to the heavy prevalence of bus lanes we now have is not the thing that slows downs buses the most its actually stopping to drop and pick up passengers which the only solution to is increased capacity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭papu


    Removing cash payment and going leapcard only , as well as using both doors on the bus would also be a huge time saver.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,860 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    The introduction of zone based travel card allowing the owner free use of public transport, Luas, trains, buses and possibly bikes would make a lot of sense these days. I could get a combo card for travel in London 20 years ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    papu wrote: »
    Removing cash payment and going leapcard only , as well as using both doors on the bus would also be a huge time saver.

    Leap cards are slower than cash. And what happens if you find you have forgotten the card??

    But that is for another thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,779 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    True. Wind is the true enemy of cyclists.

    I get fierce wind when I'm cycling. It's the bananas.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    VinLieger wrote: »
    What did I deny? Your missing the simple fact that if a route takes 1 hour regardless of traffic by the time it gets back to the point of origin to go in the direction that the commuters are rush hour is likely already over.

    Also I would argue traffic due to the heavy prevalence of bus lanes we now have is not the thing that slows downs buses the most its actually stopping to drop and pick up passengers which the only solution to is increased capacity.

    About the only thing that delays Dublin Bus (apart from the ridiculous routes and stops within 50m of each other) is cyclists. They're rarely held up by anything else once they're in Dublin City.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,779 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    About the only thing that delays Dublin Bus (apart from the ridiculous routes and stops within 50m of each other) is cyclists. They're rarely held up by anything else once they're in Dublin City.

    So, nothing to do with the 70 odd thousand cars that commute into the city daily?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Pinch Flat wrote: »
    So, nothing to do with the 70 odd thousand cars that commute into the city daily?

    Only the BMWs are allowed in the bus lane though, as long as they've the indicator fluid drained.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Leap cards are slower than cash. And what happens if you find you have forgotten the card??

    But that is for another thread.

    What happens if you forget cash.... :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    beauf wrote: »
    What happens if you forget cash.... :rolleyes:

    A few pennies in the box yoke and a winning smile.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    About the only thing that delays Dublin Bus (apart from the ridiculous routes and stops within 50m of each other) is cyclists. They're rarely held up by anything else once they're in Dublin City.

    The only thing....except.....(cars, lights, passengers, stops, pedestrians, other buses etc...)

    I think you are mixing them up with the Romans....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    A few pennies in the box yoke and a winning smile.

    That makes no cents....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,860 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    About the only thing that delays Dublin Bus (apart from the ridiculous routes and stops within 50m of each other) is cyclists. They're rarely held up by anything else once they're in Dublin City.

    Comedy gold, still laughing!


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