Scabs?

RasTa

knipex wrote: »

You do know how difficult is is to sack anyone in this country ? And to sack someone for union activity ?? Not going to happen without a big payout...

It's what Dunnes did, the payouts wouldn't be that big given their length of service with the company. Maybe 20 or 30k

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/dunnes-accused-of-targeting-workers-who-went-on-strike-31128643.html

AnneFrank

not everyone in a company is in a union, not everyone agrees with them or their strikes,
i have crossed a picket in my job once, and would do it again.
I have bills that need to be paid and won't be bullied by anyone.
But each to their own, i wouldn't shout or hurl abuse at someone for striking

GerryDerpy

Do Tesco not pay minimum wage? Why would it be any more than that? Anyone can work in a supermarket.

Permabear

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Tesco share price was 487 pence in 2007 and is 194 pence today, if this was in my pension I would be wildly pissed off. Of course this is going to have serious affects on the workers and the entire business.

People blaming the management, both the chairman and CEO have both been replaced in the last few years and the new guy appear to be a "turnaround specialist".

If I dont shop in the local Tesco what should I do?
- Go to Dunnes whos employee relations are notoriously bad
- Go to Lidl or Aldi whose local stores are much smaller and who I reckon employ way less staff

Are they the best of a bad lot?

Permabear

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eeguy

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Tesco share price was 487 pence in 2007 and is 194 pence today, if this was in my pension I would be wildly pissed off. Of course this is going to have serious affects on the workers and the entire business.

People blaming the management, both the chairman and CEO have both been replaced in the last few years and the new guy appear to be a "turnaround specialist".

If I dont shop in the local Tesco what should I do?
- Go to Dunnes whos employee relations are notoriously bad
- Go to Lidl or Aldi whose local stores are much smaller and who I reckon employ way less staff

Are they the best of a bad lot?

It depends how you look at it. Are the company responsible their shareholders and owners or to their employees?

Should the company be beholden to staff just because they've been employed for 20 years?

Personally I think Tesco offered them a way out, a thanks for your time, you can either leave and get upwards of 50k payout (one poster here got 70k last year) or you can stay and have your terms changed.

It seems like a minority wanted to have their cake and eat it. It says a lot that nearly all of their colleagues are still at work keeping the stores open and not striking in solidarity.

red ears

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The point I was trying to get at is not everyone can be the high skilled worker in high demand. Are we going to be ok with vast numbers of people working for a pittance. Society won't function well like that.

fullstop

paddyirishman07 wrote: »

Why not cut 1 million from the CEO, Why not stop throwing out perfectly good stock, Why not stop local management at store level sitting down in offices all day on the phone, why not make sure the stock we need is on the shelves(what everyone has seen)why not put the products on sale that customers are looking for instead of telling them it's out of stock because they need the stock for the big visit tomorrow (actually happens) Why cut the little man?

That's not how big businesses work, though. If you want to turn a company around, you do this through hiring the right leaders. And to get the right leaders, you have to pay for them, in spades. Do you think Dave Lewis just popped into his local Tesco with a CV and they decided to give him millions? He relocated all over the world with Unilever, worked his way to the very top there and you can be damn sure he worked his ass off to get to where he is and made plenty of personal sacrifices in the process. He is leading a company with thousands of employees and is paid very, very well to make big decisions to hit targets set by the business. It's just the nature of the beast.

eeguy

red ears wrote: »

The point I was trying to get at is not everyone can be the high skilled worker in high demand. Are we going to be ok with vast numbers of people working for a pittance. Society won't function well like that.

Universal basic income is the way forward apparently.

Should people adapt to changes in our society or should we adapt our society to people who are unable or unwilling to adapt?

Arghus

red ears wrote: »

The point I was trying to get at is not everyone can be the high skilled worker in high demand. Are we going to be ok with vast numbers of people working for a pittance. Society won't function well like that.

Or not everyone can be "on the younger side". Most of the 250 people to want to just work on are not.

TallGlass

knipex wrote: »

Pay is only a tiny element of it. Its more to do with work practices and flexibility rather than pay.

Pay isn't an element of it. These workers are flexible, some start at 5/6am till 3PM, some 8-5PM and some 9-6PM, some have a late night on Thursday/Friday working 8AM/8PM or 9AM/9PM, some work Saturdays instead of a weekday. Most don't work Sundays. There is a few hours difference between contracts of old and new. Most are assigned to a section or department and won't move out of fear, that if they give an inch, Tesco will take a mile.

If the union were all that concerned then why didn't they strike when terms and conditions were changed for new entrants ??

This isn't a crusade to protect the terms and conditions of all employees at Tesco..

Its about protecting the terms and conditions of a very small group that had no hesitation in abandoning newer entrants to poorer terms and conditions.. Yet now they want their support...

That's carry on happens in all jobs, people that are there longer usually have better contracts, sure my contract was better than someone starting now. There was very little movement in my contract or room for any type of improvement so there was nothing really for me to go on strike about, anything I had a problem with I could use the various working acts to defend myself with, I had no need for a union, they are useless to be blunt.

I signed up to my contract I knew, the guy next to me could be on twice what I was on, did it stop me doing a good job? No. I got on with it.

You cannot just accept that any company, Tesco or not can just go and change a contract as they see fit to suit there needs. So where do you draw the line then? What if they decide, sure we need 10 extra workers in store a and store b has 10 extra workers, lets send them to store a and if they don't like it, tuff ****. And trust me, they do this to there managers like no tomorrow as it in there contract they have to move.

Would you be as quick if it was the staff trying it on with the company? They don't like there contract, the hours don't suit them so they'll just do what ever hours they like or the section they work in or the store isn't suitable for them? Is that okay in that situation for them to just abandon there contract to suit themselves. Then Tesco sacked the lot of them for breaking there contracts.

Arghus

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Perhaps then the company shouldn't atagonise the workforce in such a way that the workers feel like striking?

eeguy

Arghus wrote: »

Perhaps then the company shouldn't atagonise the workforce in such a way that the workers feel like striking?

Dunnes is Ireland's most popular supermarket. The zero hour strikes a few years back didn't to a bit of harm.

Did the strikers get anything from Dunnes in the end?

Delacent

shamrockvilla wrote: »

my belief is that if Tesco win this one then all contracts can be ripped up when they feel like it,downturn in economy, falling profits etc.The original contracts were not drawn up by the workers, they were drawn up by Tesco. Why do Tesco not allow the original contracts run down naturally, retirements through age or illness,moving jobs etc. Rather than creating a split through bad feeling Tesco have a chance to do the honourable thing. I know personally from being on strike almost 30 years ago that it creates a very bad atmosphere even to this day.

"Win" - It was negotiated for over 2 years. It went to Labour Court. Labour court made a recomendation. Tesco accepted it. 700 out of just over 1000 took the redundancy.

Now that there are just 300 left, the union puts the package to the member affected - but excluded those who took redundancy.

Same way ASTI allow retired teachers vote on anything happenign to current teachers (that's why asti always vote against everything)

As for those sayign Tesco are making a fortune - last year they made a profit of 0.71% of their sales value (yep, less than 1% of your shopping bill is their net profit)

Jawgap

paddyirishman07 wrote: »

The LRC recommended that tesco pay a 2% pay increase to ALL employees tesco has not given it to the 250 or so pre 1996 workers.

Tesco only play ball when they want and have not told you this.

Tesco will not tell you everything you need to know. I would ask you all to take a leaflet and then make a decision and consider your family or friends or even your children could need a job here or elsewhere in the future and will be working for €12 an hour on a 20 hour contract. (4 hours a day 5 days a week)

YOUR CONTRACT MEANS NOTING AND
THIS IS THE START OF A DOMINO EFFECT FOR PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS AND EVERYONE IS WATCHING.

Yes, that's something the public sector and a lot of other employees in the private sector figured out years ago - welcome to the real world.

Arghus

eeguy wrote: »

Dunnes is Ireland's most popular supermarket. The zero hour strikes a few years back didn't to a bit of harm.

Did the strikers get anything from Dunnes in the end?

Quite a few of them got P45s. What's your point?

Jawgap

georgewickstaff wrote: »

Yes it is just the Pre-96 contracts. I'm also unsure what is the relevance of the 20 year old business model? The staff have contracts and Tesco do not want to honour them. Do you think staff who remain in a company should be 'punished' because of loyalty?

And just in relation to the WRC recommendation - it is not a 'verdict'. The idea of the WRC is to thrash out a mutually acceptable situation. There will be give and take. However, given that the pre-96 contracts Tesco issued were presumably designed by their HR department at the time and issued in good faith to the employees, why on earth should the employees accept a short term compensation formula? Why should they volunteer to make their personal situation worse and Tesco (yes Tesco's) situation better? These staff have shown their commitment to staying in a job for 20+ years. These people are not chancing their arm.

It's relevant because the world changes and if people expect that those same forces don't require changes to working terms, conditions and practices well then they are just the 21st Century equivalent of the Luddites.

....and are they loyal - or is it they just can't get a job anywhere else?

....the WRC did issue a determination did they not? And if it's ok for the union not to accept it why shouldn't it be ok for employers not to accept it?

eeguy

Arghus wrote: »

Quite a few of them got P45s. What's your point?

Just using it as a predictor for the Tescos strike.

Would Tesco just sack the lot of the strikers?

Arghus

eeguy wrote: »

Just using it as a predictor for the Tescos strike.

Would Tesco just sack the lot of the strikers?

Most likely no - there's a much stronger union culture in Tesco, at least right now, but this is just the opening skirmishes in what's going to be a long war, who knows what might happen down the line. The way Dunnes carried on was a disgrace, but that's nothing new, they have a well earned terrible reputation as a place to work in.

Jawgap

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

So basically: Fūck the workers so that top management can be paid millions.

How long do you think Tesco would last if, as part of a drive to pay their workers more money, they paid the management less and bumped prices by, say, 10%, and channelled all that money to the shop staff?

.....and if they added another 10% so the employees in their suppliers, the ones working minimum wage in fields to pick the veggies, or the ones on a slaughterline or in a far off tuna factory, get a wage increase?

Do you think people will pay more for their food?

People are dumb which means they are brand loyal and if their favourite brand is 10% cheaper somewhere else they'll go there to get it.

Whether we like it or not the era of cheap food is still with us and as long as we prize price over corporate responsibility it will remain that way.

Tesco staff have the right to strike, but in a business where margins are less than 10%, and where they are wide open to substitution, it's sheer folly - but the law doesn't stop people being stupid, so away they can go.

It's a bit like when the brickies went on strike - and architects simply stopped using bricks in favour of pre-cast concrete. They got their €1 per brick increase - it's just no one wanted brick any more

Noddyholder

I wont be passing any picket & talking to family member's they said they wont be either.

every little helps.

eeguy

Arghus wrote: »

Most likely no - there's a much stronger union culture in Tesco, at least right now, but this is just the opening skirmishes in what's going to be a long war, who knows what might happen down the line. The way Dunnes carried on was a disgrace, but that's nothing new, they have a well earned terrible reputation as a place to work in.

Not if only 1% of the workers are on strike?

Permabear

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red ears

Permabear wrote: »

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People just fleece those self service checkouts.

RoboRat

If a union tells me to do something, I do the opposite. I have no time for unions, if Connolly saw what they have become he would turn in his grave. Glorified over payed bullies at best.

eeguy

red ears wrote: »

People just fleece those self service checkouts.

People have been fleecing shops since the beginning of shops. Soon we'll have an Amazon system where everything you pick up is recorded: http://www.pymnts.com/amazon-innovations/2016/amazon-go-to-grocery-shoppers-just-walk-out/

in tandem with a home delivery service like Tesco currently operate.

RoboRat wrote: »

If a union tells me to do something, I do the opposite. I have no time for unions, if Connolly saw what they have become he would turn in his grave. Glorified over payed bullies at best.

It's incredibly hypocritical for unions to criticise the wages of management, when they themselves get huge paychecks.
Sure Jack O'Connor, the head of SIPTU gets 115k per year,
Shay Cody of Impact gets 160k, while Sheila Nunan of the INTO gets 153k
John Douglas of Mandate wouldn't disclose his salary

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/big-salaries-and-pensions-of-union-bosses-uncovered-28812910.html

Havockk

Permabear wrote: »

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One has to wonder, in this free-market wet dream of yours, with automated everything, who will the consumers be?

TallGlass

Permabear wrote: »

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That's fine, when I was there I welcomed anything that helped me do my job or freed me up to do something else, not one person had a problem with automation. But don't worry, Tesco will find away to make it 10 times more complicated than if it had of been done by hand an require around 3 people to help the machine do its job or just ignore a particular piece of automation that would actually reduce workload and save time. :rolleyes:

Delacent

Delacent wrote: »

Same way ASTI allow retired teachers vote on anything happenign to current teachers (that's why asti always vote against everything)

@Delacent to go on a slight tangent... ASTI allow retired teachers to vote on things happening to current teachers??

What why ???

Arghus

eeguy wrote: »

Not if only 1% of the workers are on strike?

There is a much stronger union culture in Tesco compared to Dunnes. That's a fact.

The strikes are slowly being rolled out in stores that still have pre96 workers in the workforce. 16 are currently striking, it could be 30 or so by next week- more stores are balloting tonight. That's a lot more than 1% of Tesco's 142 stores in the country. After this phase is completed and nothing has been resolved, more stores will be balloted and so on and so on..conceivably there could eventually be a general strike across all stores across the country, but I'd be surprised if it goes that far.

end of the road

Jawgap wrote: »

You want to know why......here's why......



I worked in the PS up until recently and I remember vitriol poured on PS workers for striking - so it can hardly be surprising that people are less inclined towards respecting picket lines compared to previously?

Plus, where are people supposed to shop? Dunne's have had their issues with staff and zero hours contracts (never mind how they continue to treat suppliers)......convenience stores are over-priced......Aldi and Lidl are non-union.

oh, and by the way the current round of industrial unrest really started with the Luas workers and their private sector employer caving to their demands.

....and in this instance I don't know why there is such sympathy for the Tesco workers - they went to the WRC, they got a ruling and they still spat their dummy - I'm guessing if an employer followed a similar tack they'd be rightly filleted for it.

the luas operator didn't cave to it's staff's demands. both sides negotiated and eventually came to a deal. the Tesco workers never spat their dummy, they stood up and are fighting to keep their jobs and contracts. they must continue fighting regardless of begrudgers.

Arghus

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yep they are nothing like those pesky human beings.

Edit: Squabbling over terms and conditions? How much do you actually know about this situation. Don't make me laugh with that strikes damaging a companies reputation line, people have been using that guff for centuries at this stage - frequently as a justification for bullyboy tactics from employers!

end of the road

RoboRat wrote: »

If a union tells me to do something, I do the opposite. I have no time for unions, if Connolly saw what they have become he would turn in his grave. Glorified over payed bullies at best.

unions don't "tell" anyone to do anything. a proposal is put to the members and the members vote on it. if they vote yes then the proposal happens and if they vote no then it doesn't. the fact i have to explain this very obvious fact is laughable, but there you go. if Connolly saw what they have become he wouldn't give a damn, as they are doing exactly what he would have done. using Connolly as part of your anti-union rant = argument fail by the way. unions aren't bullies, and they can't be over paid as the members make up the union, many union members not being paid very well depending on the job.

eeguy wrote: »

It's incredibly hypocritical for unions to criticise the wages of management, when they themselves get huge paychecks.
Sure Jack O'Connor, the head of SIPTU gets 115k per year,
Shay Cody of Impact gets 160k, while Sheila Nunan of the INTO gets 153k
John Douglas of Mandate wouldn't disclose his salary

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/big-salaries-and-pensions-of-union-bosses-uncovered-28812910.html

blame the members who decide what the heads are worth. if they believe the head isn't worth the money then they won't get that money.

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

@Delacent to go on a slight tangent... ASTI allow retired teachers to vote on things happening to current teachers??

What why ???

he is making that up. it doesn't happen.

eeguy

end of the road wrote: »

blame the members who decide what the heads are worth. if they believe the head isn't worth the money then they won't get that money.

Shouldn't the same logic apply to Tesco and other businesses?

Glenster

eeguy wrote: »

It's incredibly hypocritical for unions to criticise the wages of management, when they themselves get huge paychecks.
Sure Jack O'Connor, the head of SIPTU gets 115k per year,
Shay Cody of Impact gets 160k, while Sheila Nunan of the INTO gets 153k
John Douglas of Mandate wouldn't disclose his salary

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/big-salaries-and-pensions-of-union-bosses-uncovered-28812910.html

115K is hardly massive now is it?

Particularly as he is trying to transform the union from a partnership union (AKA slave union) to a proper organising union.

Permabear

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ThisRegard

TallGlass wrote: »

Most are assigned to a section or department and won't move out of fear, that if they give an inch, Tesco will take a mile.

Like for example butchers in stores, that no longer have butchers? You gotta admit that any company is up against that kind of nonsense are better off without them. (the caveat is that they may have already taken the redundancy when it was put on the table)

suicide_circus

It's one thing if a company is about to go bust. Tesco is making big big profits so they can f*ck off chipping away at the modest incomes of their longest serving staff. Disgraceful.

ThisRegard

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's one thing if a company is about to go bust. Tesco is making big big profits

They are? Have you not read any of the posts from people contradicting this?

Using your own logic, you'll be ok if it's proven that they're struggling in the market, that employees should also take a cut or amend practises to reflect this? Or is it all just one way?

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

the luas operator didn't cave to it's staff's demands. both sides negotiated and eventually came to a deal. the Tesco workers never spat their dummy, they stood up and are fighting to keep their jobs and contracts. they must continue fighting regardless of begrudgers.

Spin it whatever way you want but it's still the same old yarn.

.....and the Tesco workers, quite frankly, are bonkers. It's an industry that relies on throughput and turnover - mucking with either is just cutting your own throat.

suicide_circus

ThisRegard wrote: »

They are? Have you not read any of the posts from people contradicting this?

Using your own logic, you'll be ok if it's proven that they're struggling in the market, that employees should also take a cut or amend practises to reflect this? Or is it all just one way?

If the difference between tesco going bust or surviving is changing the terms and conditions of these employees then it's fair enough to change it. But that's not the case here

andekwarhola

Have to lol a bit at people trotting out the gotta feed the family line. As if your shopping boils down to a stark choice between strolling to Tesco or an week long trek across the Gobi desert to find a trading outpost.

Havockk

Permabear wrote: »

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What is your solution? Bearing in mind of course that low skilled jobs are ever more prevalent, the middle class is shrinking and being subsumed into the poorer classes. Who will buy the goods the machines produce?

Atoms for Peace

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

€14 per hour is huge money for what's basically unskilled work. And it's more than their post 96 colleagues - doing the same job - are on.

Yes retail wages are low: thats why most people pull finger, study and get into either management or another industry. Starter jobs should not be seen as jobs for life.

Is their a sneary smilie I could use?

eeguy

Havockk wrote: »

What is your solution? Bearing in mind of course that low skilled jobs are ever more prevalent, the middle class is shrinking and being subsumed into the poorer classes. Who will buy the goods the machines produce?

Really? I don't think that's true given that more people are in employment than ever. I can't find any link post 2010 that makes that claim.

Permabear

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Havockk

eeguy wrote: »

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Yes the middle class is indeed shrinking.

Permabear wrote: »

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Ahh it's all the governments fault. Why am I not surprised at that answer from yourself?
Let me guess, we need less regulation and a privatised education? I wonder how the plebs will pay for that with no education? They should borrow I bet?

FixdePitchmark

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

€14 per hour is huge money for what's basically unskilled work. And it's more than their post 96 colleagues - doing the same job - are on.

Yes retail wages are low: thats why most people pull finger, study and get into either management or another industry. Starter jobs should not be seen as jobs for life.

Jaysus some post above.

Nothing worse than a person who has a degree - thinks they can be a manager just because they drank fat frogs for 4 years in a pumped up IT or poorly ranked Irish university.

Doing a retail job correctly is skilled - staff with experience and the right skill set make shopping far more enjoyable for the customer. What is wrong with people dedicated and invested in a big successful company like Tesco.

You see young people in "starter jobs" in retail all they time - many / most - are useless - ignore you, are on their phone and can hardly make eye contact - they will be the great managers of the future when they get their exams {after the few repeats} - if you do not have the skill set and personality in a "starter job" - you will be feck all use as a manager.

Permabear

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