Irish Brexit

Jim2007

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

then you could easily see public opinion towards the EU taking a hit, as that may be a mark against the EU in the blame game.

Wishful thinking, this has always been seen as the UK causing problems and their current behaviour just confirms it. It would take a very concerted campaign to move Irish sentiment even slightly.

The border arrangements will have very little impact for Irish people outside the border area, where as the bail out etc.. impacted most people in some way. And yet Ireland remains the post pro EU state around. If that did not change people, the border issues are not likely to either.

Even the old republican sentiment of 30 or 40 yeas ago that might drive this kind of attitude is history as well. We're three generations away from the men of 1916, at this stage it is our history not our politics.

KyussBeeshop

Where did I 'wish' anything? During the middle of the crisis years since the bailout, Ireland was fairly average in terms of EU support - the uptick is over the past 3 years.

The trends of EU support seem to, understandably, be driven by economic conditions more than anything else - I'd expect that to continue to be the case, as Brexit plays out (and we've no idea how it will play out, yet).

Jim2007

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

Where did I 'wish' anything? During the middle of the crisis years since the bailout, Ireland was fairly average in terms of EU support - the uptick is over the past 3 years.

And at no point did support to a level that could be considered a backlash against the EU. In fact the vote on the fiscal compact should be considered an endorsement even in the middle of the crisis.

KyussBeeshop

Why are you so defensive of the EU? It's silly the way people are so sensitive about anything less than complete adoration and embellishment of the EU's popularity - and interpret everything that corrects inaccurate statements embellishing the EU's status, as a backlash against the EU.

Positive public opinion towards the EU actually dropped, and negative public opinion rose after the Fiscal Compact referendum...you've got links to the raw stats on the public opinion polls on the thread, you should fact-check your statements...
http://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/Chart/getChart/chartType/lineChart//themeKy/19/groupKy/102/countries/IE/savFiles/702,698,805,850,838/periodStart/042000/periodEnd/052017

Stats compiled by the EU themselves, contradict your statements - and other peoples. The stats are public and readily available - Use. Them. - rather than having other people correct your (and others) embellished statements all the time.

oscarBravo

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

Why are you so defensive of the EU?

Because its value vastly exceeds what can be expressed in a jumped-up popularity contest, despite how determined some people are to blame it for all the world's ills.

KyussBeeshop

See that's exactly what I mean about defensiveness. In the exchange over the last couple of days, I didn't even blame the EU for anything - I asked for citations, for people to back up their embellished statements regarding the EU - which turned out to nearly all be either false or inconclusive.

Fact checking EU popularity embellishment (which is contradicted by the EU's own stats), apparently equals someone trying to "blame it [the EU] for all the world's ills" - the level of defensiveness coupled with fluffing of the EU's reputation when it's in contradiction with the stats, just gives the impression of a general lack of objectivity in discussion surrounding the EU around here (I mean, the raw stats - as objective as you can get in the circumstances - are contradicting peoples statements, and they are just digging in more and more, and backslapping...).

KyussBeeshop

A good time to note Mairead McGuinness's comments today - vice president of the EU Parliament, and Fine Gael politician (as much as I dislike that party...) - stating (headline) that Brexit will "have bigger impact on Anglo Irish relations than Easter Rising" - she also says:

...
Ms McGuinness also called for a national debate to take place in Ireland on the future of Europe.
"Brexit, as profound as it is, must not be allowed sap all energies and efforts," she said.
"We need to start looking beyond Brexit to what type of Europe we want to see in the future.
"Scepticism and indeed cynicism about the EU was certainly fuelled by the economic crisis.
"And mistakes were made giving rise to justifiable concerns among citizens which must be addressed in any discussion about the future of the EU."
Ms McGuinness urged all elements of society to get involved in a debate on the shape of Europe in the future.
...

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/brexit-will-have-bigger-impact-on-anglo-irish-relations-than-easter-rising-802730.html

We won't be having that debate, in the presence of reflexive defensiveness and embellishment of the EU, as it simply won't be possible. There needs to be a greater role for criticism of the EU (which is not the same as advocating abandonment of it), including among its most ardent supporters - so that it can be improved.

oscarBravo

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

See that's exactly what I mean about defensiveness. In the exchange over the last couple of days, I didn't even blame the EU for anything - I asked for citations, for people to back up their embellished statements regarding the EU - which turned out to nearly all be either false or inconclusive.

Fact checking EU popularity embellishment (which is contradicted by the EU's own stats), apparently equals someone trying to "blame it [the EU] for all the world's ills" - the level of defensiveness coupled with fluffing of the EU's reputation when it's in contradiction with the stats, just gives the impression of a general lack of objectivity in discussion surrounding the EU around here (I mean, the raw stats - as objective as you can get in the circumstances - are contradicting peoples statements, and they are just digging in more and more, and backslapping...).

Calm down, not everything is about you. You can't deny that the EU is a favourite whipping boy of national governments throughout the Union.

The reason many of us are defensive of the EU is because so very, very, very many people attack it at every possible opportunity. The EU's biggest real problem (as opposed to the myriad fictional problems so many people think it has) is that it's an unsexy, functional, somewhat bureaucratic force for good.

We've seen it in the Brexit "debate": the remain side was criticised for not putting forward a positive message about the EU. The problem is, "positive" in this day of nanosecond attention spans means "headline-grabbingly exciting". Nobody wants to hear about all the good things the EU does, because they're fundamentally boring. People want to hear about the bad things the EU does, even when they are works of total fiction.

I'm not even talking about straight bananas, even though that particular bizarre fairy tale still has currency in the UK (and, by extension, here). I'm talking about the idea that our property bubble was the Eurozone's fault, because we couldn't set our own interest rates. The fact that the government of the time had any number of fiscal controls it could have implemented but chose not to doesn't matter: the EU is a convenient scapegoat.

So, frankly, I don't really care whether or not the EU is "popular"; I care whether or not it is good for us. When people learn to think about things, I'll start caring more about how they feel about them.

eta: As for there being a role for criticism of the EU, when the EU's critics start loudly calling out the stupid fictions about the Union for what they are, I'll be more inclined to listen to their genuine grievances, but as long as they are prepared to tolerate the "ban on powerful vacuum cleaners" nonsense as useful idiocy, they don't deserve to have their legitimate concerns heard.

KyussBeeshop

None of that excuses trying to embellish the EU's image with false claims, and then getting ultra-defensive when EU-provided stats are used to contradict those claims.

Just because you perceive there to be a bias against the EU - does not justify pushing for a bias in favour of the EU.

The faults with the Euro and the monetary system assigned to it, are not scapegoats, they are relevant criticisms of the EU which are critically important for discussion - but neither are they relevant to this thread, so I won't go into it due to likely mod action - that's precisely one of the areas where pro-EU advocates should be welcoming extensive criticism, in order to better the EU - except it's stifled instead.

I also don't understand all the errata you're bringing in to the thread either - bannana/vaccum regulations - it's simple: People made claims about the EU's popularity in this thread, which were then undermined or rendered inconclusive, by stats provided by the EU themselves - that's pretty much the end of it, it's not a grand attack by anyone against the EU - it's correcting false claims aimed at puffing-up the EU's image.

KyussBeeshop

oscarBravo wrote: »

eta: As for there being a role for criticism of the EU, when the EU's critics start loudly calling out the stupid fictions about the Union for what they are, I'll be more inclined to listen to their genuine grievances, but as long as they are prepared to tolerate the "ban on powerful vacuum cleaners" nonsense as useful idiocy, they don't deserve to have their legitimate concerns heard.

Just going over this again this morning - does this mean that if you perceive that someone falls into this camp, you will shout down even their legitimate arguments critical of the EU, just due to your perception of them?

<SNIP>

Mehapoy

oscarBravo wrote: »

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

See that's exactly what I mean about defensiveness. In the exchange over the last couple of days, I didn't even blame the EU for anything - I asked for citations, for people to back up their embellished statements regarding the EU - which turned out to nearly all be either false or inconclusive.

Fact checking EU popularity embellishment (which is contradicted by the EU's own stats), apparently equals someone trying to "blame it [the EU] for all the world's ills" - the level of defensiveness coupled with fluffing of the EU's reputation when it's in contradiction with the stats, just gives the impression of a general lack of objectivity in discussion surrounding the EU around here (I mean, the raw stats - as objective as you can get in the circumstances - are contradicting peoples statements, and they are just digging in more and more, and backslapping...).

Calm down, not everything is about you. You can't deny that the EU is a favourite whipping boy of national governments throughout the Union.

The reason many of us are defensive of the EU is because so very, very, very many people attack it at every possible opportunity. The EU's biggest real problem (as opposed to the myriad fictional problems so many people think it has) is that it's an unsexy, functional, somewhat bureaucratic force for good.

We've seen it in the Brexit "debate": the remain side was criticised for not putting forward a positive message about the EU. The problem is, "positive" in this day of nanosecond attention spans means "headline-grabbingly exciting". Nobody wants to hear about all the good things the EU does, because they're fundamentally boring. People want to hear about the bad things the EU does, even when they are works of total fiction.

I'm not even talking about straight bananas, even though that particular bizarre fairy tale still has currency in the UK (and, by extension, here). I'm talking about the idea that our property bubble was the Eurozone's fault, because we couldn't set our own interest rates. The fact that the government of the time had any number of fiscal controls it could have implemented but chose not to doesn't matter: the EU is a convenient scapegoat.

So, frankly, I don't really care whether or not the EU is "popular"; I care whether or not it is good for us. When people learn to think about things, I'll start caring more about how they feel about them.

eta: As for there being a role for criticism of the EU, when the EU's critics start loudly calling out the stupid fictions about the Union for what they are, I'll be more inclined to listen to their genuine grievances, but as long as they are prepared to tolerate the "ban on powerful vacuum cleaners" nonsense as useful idiocy, they don't deserve to have their legitimate concerns heard.

Our interest rates being set totally inappropriately for our economic cycle as well as the large flow of money into Ireland after the euro was a massive cause of the bubble and then the crash, yes the fianna fail gov could have not spent like a drunken sailor but interest rates and credit availability are usually the primary causes of a bubble.

Jim2007

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

We won't be having that debate, in the presence of reflexive defensiveness and embellishment of the EU, as it simply won't be possible.

The debate is going on, the Commission has published proposals, various parties in the parliament have produced papers, the Euro group has produced papers as well. If you are not aware of it then that is your problem.

Jim2007

Mehapoy wrote: »

Our interest rates being set totally inappropriately for our economic cycle as well as the large flow of money into Ireland after the euro was a massive cause of the bubble and then the crash, yes the fianna fail gov could have not spent like a drunken sailor but interest rates and credit availability are usually the primary causes of a bubble.

Nice, but the reality is that the government could have dealt with it and did not. Ant the opposition could have made a real issue of it but did not. Then again it should not be surprising because the voters would not have accepted it either.

Jim2007

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

Positive public opinion towards the EU actually dropped, and negative public opinion rose after the Fiscal Compact referendum...you've got links to the raw stats on the public opinion polls on the thread, you should fact-check your statements....

But for all your nonsense, the fact is that the amendment was easily passed and negative sentiment did not rise to a level remotely close to a situation where people were willing to consider an exit strategy.

Samaris

The Telegraph is being hopeful that someone else will consider a header off the cliff with them. It's not going to happen in the immediate future unless we really lose our marbles. Fortunately, our marbles have survived the chaos in the rest of the Anglophone world thus far so I think they're on a hiding to nothing.

KyussBeeshop

Jim2007 wrote: »

But for all your nonsense, the fact is that the amendment was easily passed and negative sentiment did not rise to a level remotely close to a situation where people were willing to consider an exit strategy.

You're fighting straw-men - I never claimed negative sentiment rose to that level - and I'm pretty sure you know that and are just deliberately misrepresenting my posts.

Fact is, I've used EU based stats to debunk your and others fluffed-up statements about public opinion regarding the EU - but there's such a lack of objectivity surrounding discussion of the EU around here, that you and others can't even acknowledge when the EU's own stats show you're wrong - in fact, people seem to just double/triple-down, by making even more puffy statements about the EU, that yet again are contradicted by the stats...


The silly thing is, people don't even need to be making these inaccurate statements about the EU's popularity, given that it already is very popular, and that it's very easy to show that without exaggerating inaccurately - it makes no sense that posters don't just settle for that, instead of trying to make demonstrably false statements to puff up the EU's image even more...

Jim2007

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

Fact is, I've used EU based stats to debunk your and others fluffed-up statements about public opinion regarding the EU - ...

The fact is that your claim is unsubstantiated by the stats. Even at the lowest point in the financial crises sentiment did not change anywhere near enough to back up your opinion that a hard border in NI will change Irish attitudes towards the EU sufficiently for it to become an issue.

KyussBeeshop

You're trying to shift the goalposts - this is about your Fiscal Compact claim, not anything I said (and your representation of what I said regarding a hard border, is false - you've deliberately hardened the claim into something far stronger than I stated) - you tried to claim that the Fiscal Compact was an endorsement of the EU:

Jim2007 wrote:

In fact the vote on the fiscal compact should be considered an endorsement even in the middle of the crisis.

I proved that the stats show that support for the EU actually went down at this time:

KyussBeeshop wrote:

Positive public opinion towards the EU actually dropped, and negative public opinion rose after the Fiscal Compact referendum...you've got links to the raw stats on the public opinion polls on the thread, you should fact-check your statements...
http://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/...riodEnd/052017

Stats compiled by the EU themselves, contradict your statements - and other peoples. The stats are public and readily available - Use. Them. - rather than having other people correct your (and others) embellished statements all the time.

You know you were wrong about this. The stats prove that. Now you're trying to pretend we were talking about something else, so you can avoid acknowledging this.

murphaph

Mehapoy wrote: »

Our interest rates being set totally inappropriately for our economic cycle as well as the large flow of money into Ireland after the euro was a massive cause of the bubble and then the crash, yes the fianna fail gov could have not spent like a drunken sailor but interest rates and credit availability are usually the primary causes of a bubble.

But following the crash the central bank introduced rules to mortgage lending to compel banks to require minimum deposits from people taking out mortgages.

There was no EU rule preventing this sort of regulation which would have prevented the worst of the bubble.

It was our "I wish those cribbing and moaning would just commit suicide" Taoiseach and his government that was to blame, not the EU!!

angiogoir

Firstly lets get real. Ireland is dependent on international trade and military protection from bigger countries. We may not "want" to leave the EU, but may have to leave. At least make more use of opt outs as the EU moves towards a fully federal system.

Wanderer78

murphaph wrote:

It was our "I wish those cribbing and moaning would just commit suicide" Taoiseach and his government that was to blame, not the EU!!

It was good for us all apparently, they even called it 'the great moderation'!

oscarBravo

angiogoir wrote: »

We may not "want" to leave the EU, but may have to leave.

Why?

At least make more use of opt outs as the EU moves towards a fully federal system.

Why?

Sam Russell

Mehapoy wrote: »

Our interest rates being set totally inappropriately for our economic cycle as well as the large flow of money into Ireland after the euro was a massive cause of the bubble and then the crash, yes the fianna fail gov could have not spent like a drunken sailor but interest rates and credit availability are usually the primary causes of a bubble.

The Irish Central Bank have set minimum deposits and minimum earnings for mortgages recently that could have been set in 2004. Bank of Scotland started the rot with cut price mortgages, and First Active offered zero deposit mortgages. If the ICB had stepped in at that time by for example putting the current rules in place, much of the bubble would not have occurred. Also the FF government allowed property developers to defer their tax liabilities and Anglo were allowed to over-lend due to poor supervision by the Irish CB.

So on balance, it is not the EU's fault but the Irish Central Bank, and the FF government. The EU sets the rules, it is the local country's government to supervise and enforce those rules. The ECJ will enforce those rules if the country does not.

That is the way the legal system works.

Mehapoy

Jim2007 wrote: »

Mehapoy wrote: »

Our interest rates being set totally inappropriately for our economic cycle as well as the large flow of money into Ireland after the euro was a massive cause of the bubble and then the crash, yes the fianna fail gov could have not spent like a drunken sailor but interest rates and credit availability are usually the primary causes of a bubble.

Nice, but the reality is that the government could have dealt with it and did not. Ant the opposition could have made a real issue of it but did not. Then again it should not be surprising because the voters would not have accepted it either.

How could they have dealt with it? the main way of adjusting monetary policy, through interest rates, was not available to the central bank, could the gov have stopped the flow of money to Irish banks? ...the EU were all for a pan euro area before the crash, then after it was national governments were responsible for their own banks.

swampgas

Mehapoy wrote: »

How could they have dealt with it? the main way of adjusting monetary policy, through interest rates, was not available to the central bank, could the gov have stopped the flow of money to Irish banks? ...the EU were all for a pan euro area before the crash, then after it was national governments were responsible for their own banks.

Surely it's obvious? With appropriate regulation.

murphaph

Mehapoy wrote: »

How could they have dealt with it?.

The exact same way they did deal with it....after the fact: minimum deposits for mortgage takers.

sanjose1

I recall Nigel Farage recently stating that Irelands net economic gain from the EU is well outweighed by our loss of natural resources to the EU since joining. Seems an incredible statement, anyone know how valid this is? Tks

Cookie_Monster

It's related to the value of the fishing quota isn't it, or at least that's the quoted item.

Nody

In short Nigel is talking out of his behind as usual; for fishing the facts are here and no Ireland did not give away tons of fishing rights or somehow lost out. In fact EU helped modernize the Irish fishing fleet ensuring they could take up a significantly higher share of fish but also provided funding for boats to actually protect the Irish waters.

LeinsterDub

Typical brexit mentally. Now that the EU enforced quotas have ensured stocks have recovered the UK is dying to fish the seas to the edge of collapse again

jm08

Nody wrote: »

In short Nigel is talking out of his behind as usual; for fishing the facts are here and no Ireland did not give away tons of fishing rights or somehow lost out. In fact EU helped modernize the Irish fishing fleet ensuring they could take up a significantly higher share of fish but also provided funding for boats to actually protect the Irish waters.

Ireland had an under developed fishing industry back then, but then pretty much everything was under developed and the quotas were based on the existing fishing fleet. As Brian Lenihan Snr says in that link you have supplied: Fishermen would only have enough votes to elect one FF TD! Fishing was sacrificed for farming.

Nody

jm08 wrote: »

Ireland had an under developed fishing industry back then, but then pretty much everything was under developed and the quotas were based on the existing fishing fleet. As Brian Lenihan Snr says in that link you have supplied: Fishermen would only have enough votes to elect one FF TD! Fishing was sacrificed for farming.

And yet with this "sacrifice" under EU the export of fish has grown as part of total export from 0.7% (before joining) to 2.9% (after joining) on top of modernizing the fleets, providing actual ships to protect the fishing grounds etc. The simple fact is Ireland had not, would not and has never had a better fishing fleet then what it got under EU inc. possibility to protect it's waters. However the story how countless hundreds of billions were either given away or stolen by EU keeps popping up as regularly as the gazillions of gas/oil that the state is "giving away" through licenses and regulation (fanned by a handful of small exploration companies who've failed to find these wast natural resources for decades somehow).

4068ac1elhodqr

It says here under the 'The Real Map of Ireland’ that Ireland’s marine territory extends far beyond our coastline up to 220 million acres (approx. 880,000km2), an area more than 10 times our land mass.'

So in-effect, 90% of it - is underwater! Given the housing crisis what about a few hundred miles of marinas and houseboats way down towards the sunny Goban Spur direction, sure it will be just like the french riviera.

That's he size of Britain and France combined, if someone invented floating farms, there would be a couple of million of acres to harvest out there.

Samaris

If Nigel Farage said it, and it's a suspiciously open-ended comment that supports his notions with no back-up, it's probably a lie.

Red_Wake

sanjose1 wrote: »

I recall Nigel Farage recently stating that Irelands net economic gain from the EU is well outweighed by our loss of natural resources to the EU since joining. Seems an incredible statement, anyone know how valid this is? Tks

Considering the massive deception involved in the Brexit campaign, it's unlikely to be true.

Jim2007

Mehapoy wrote: »

How could they have dealt with it? the main way of adjusting monetary policy, through interest rates, was not available to the central bank, could the gov have stopped the flow of money to Irish banks? ...the EU were all for a pan euro area before the crash, then after it was national governments were responsible for their own banks.

Monetary policy is just one tool. They could have required massive deposits from borrowers, required those deposits to have been from savings, not a give from granny, restricted the mortgage length, dramatically reduced the tax advantage of home ownership, dramatically increase stamp duty etc...

Towards the end of the crisis a property bubble started to develop in Switzerland too, but the government did not use monitory policy, instead:
- They required a minimum balance of 30% from savings
- Mortgages must be fully paid off before retirement
- Assets such as another property or pension funds could not be pledged
- Mortgage period restricted to 20 years
- Restrictions on the ownership of holiday homes
Problem solved.

Jim2007

angiogoir wrote: »

Firstly lets get real. Ireland is dependent on international trade and military protection from bigger countries. We may not "want" to leave the EU, but may have to leave. At least make more use of opt outs as the EU moves towards a fully federal system.

Yes do get real and explain why we would need to make use of opt outs etc....

Tayschren

Nody wrote: »

In short Nigel is talking out of his behind as usual; for fishing the facts are here and no Ireland did not give away tons of fishing rights or somehow lost out. In fact EU helped modernize the Irish fishing fleet ensuring they could take up a significantly higher share of fish but also provided funding for boats to actually protect the Irish waters.

Finfacts is now a source, really? The article disguises facts behind extraneous references to the famine, pre EU "Ireland not giving a **** about our resources" attitude and other jibber jabber blatantly ignoring that the resource is being plundered.
Basically it says we weren't utilising the fish stocks and we dont eat them anyway so someone(eU) else should have it,whether we utilized it correctly is not an issue; It is our resource and is being used by others for gain.

Hennigan will probably be along soon under whatever guise he lurks here to defend the article but basically it ignores the FACT that most of the resources in what are Irish waters are not being used for the benefit of the Irish economy.

blanch152

Tayschren wrote: »

Finfacts is now a source, really? The article disguises facts behind extraneous references to the famine, pre EU "Ireland not giving a **** about our resources" attitude and other jibber jabber blatantly ignoring that the resource is being plundered.
Basically it says we weren't utilising the fish stocks and we dont eat them anyway so someone(eU) else should have it,whether we utilized it correctly is not an issue; It is our resource and is being used by others for gain.

Hennigan will probably be along soon under whatever guise he lurks here to defend the article but basically it ignores the FACT that most of the resources in what are Irish waters are not being used for the benefit of the Irish economy.

What resources are being plundered? If something is a "FACT", you must have an official source to back up what you are saying.

johnnyskeleton

sanjose1 wrote: »

I recall Nigel Farage recently stating that Irelands net economic gain from the EU is well outweighed by our loss of natural resources to the EU since joining. Seems an incredible statement, anyone know how valid this is? Tks

Mod note:

Threads merged (second time lucky )

Capt'n Midnight

murphaph wrote: »

Just Google "88% Ireland EU". Example result:
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0509/873610-eu_poll/

It's a fantasy to suggest Ireland is anywhere close to leaving the EU. It's probably the most pro-EU country of all.

Amongst full time students that support was 99%. So most of our future political leaders appear to be pro-EU.


As for selling our fish , you only need to look at how Michael Grove has "taken back control" of in-shore fishing. And then promised foreign countries rights to UK fish after Brexit.

Samaris

I remember seeing a list of countries by their Europhilic tendency and Ireland was actually fairly high up the list. Weren't right at the top, but were in the top five or six at the time. It has probably changed since though. I'm fairly sure I saw this list near the start of the Brexit campaign and it was probably a year or so out of date then.

Inquitus

Samaris wrote: »

I remember seeing a list of countries by their Europhilic tendency and Ireland was actually fairly high up the list. Weren't right at the top, but were in the top five or six at the time. It has probably changed since though. I'm fairly sure I saw this list near the start of the Brexit campaign and it was probably a year or so out of date then.

Last poll I saw had us at 88% in favour of remaining in the EU, doubt it has changed, makes us one of the most favourable nations to the EU in the EU!

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0509/873610-eu_poll/

Jim2007

Samaris wrote: »

I remember seeing a list of countries by their Europhilic tendency and Ireland was actually fairly high up the list. Weren't right at the top, but were in the top five or six at the time. It has probably changed since though. I'm fairly sure I saw this list near the start of the Brexit campaign and it was probably a year or so out of date then.

Good luck in finding a reference for that!!!!! In the meantime here is another survey to the contrary: https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/irish-most-optimistic-about-eu-s-future-eurobarometer-autumn-2016_en

Samaris

Jim2007 wrote: »

Good luck in finding a reference for that!!!!! In the meantime here is another survey to the contrary: https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/irish-most-optimistic-about-eu-s-future-eurobarometer-autumn-2016_en

Errr...?

"Irish most optimistic about EU's future"
"Irish respondents were most likely to have a positive image of the EU, followed by Poland (!) and Romania"
"90% of Irish respondents are in favour of “the free movement of EU citizens who can live, work, study and do business anywhere in the EU”, joint 6th highest in the EU after Luxembourg (96%), Estonia (95%), Lithuania (95%), Latvia (94%), Spain (91%). The EU average was 81% with people in Austria (67%) and the United Kingdom (68%) least in favour."
"Support for the Euro is joint second highest in Ireland (and Slovakia) at 85% after Luxembourg (87%)."
"Irish (and Polish) respondents (78%) were the joint 6th highest to feel they are citizens of the EU after Luxembourg (92%), Malta (82%), Portugal (79%), Spain (79%) and Finland (79%)."

That...er...backs up my claim rather than the contrary. If anything, it shows the figures I vaguely remember have actually gone up. Are you sure you posted the right link?

Fratton Fred

Jim2007 wrote: »

Good luck in finding a reference for that!!!!! In the meantime here is another survey to the contrary: https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/irish-most-optimistic-about-eu-s-future-eurobarometer-autumn-2016_en

Samaris wrote: »

Errr...?

"Irish most optimistic about EU's future"
"Irish respondents were most likely to have a positive image of the EU, followed by Poland (!) and Romania"
"90% of Irish respondents are in favour of “the free movement of EU citizens who can live, work, study and do business anywhere in the EU”, joint 6th highest in the EU after Luxembourg (96%), Estonia (95%), Lithuania (95%), Latvia (94%), Spain (91%). The EU average was 81% with people in Austria (67%) and the United Kingdom (68%) least in favour."
"Support for the Euro is joint second highest in Ireland (and Slovakia) at 85% after Luxembourg (87%)."
"Irish (and Polish) respondents (78%) were the joint 6th highest to feel they are citizens of the EU after Luxembourg (92%), Malta (82%), Portugal (79%), Spain (79%) and Finland (79%)."

That...er...backs up my claim rather than the contrary. If anything, it shows the figures I vaguely remember have actually gone up. Are you sure you posted the right link?

I think we need a quick understanding of definitions.

Europhillic - having admiration for the European Union
Europhobic - having a fear of, or opposition to the European Union

wpd

I am concerned that Ireland will be flooded with east european migrants after brexit that are currently going to the UK

this doesnt seem to be getting discussed at all, impact on our schools and health service would be huge.

Am i wrong in thinking this is going to be an issue for Ireland???

johnnyskeleton

wpd wrote: »

I am concerned that Ireland will be flooded with east european migrants after brexit that are currently going to the UK

this doesnt seem to be getting discussed at all, impact on our schools and health service would be huge.

Am i wrong in thinking this is going to be an issue for Ireland???

It's possible but it seems unlikely. Depending on how the negotiations go, the Existing EU nationals in the UK could get to retain the right to permanent reside and the right to build up to permanent residence in the UK and so they wouldn't have to leave at all.

But assuming they can't stay in the UK, they would need to have a job to come to in Ireland or at least prospects of same. If they don't then they would return home or move elsewhere to get a job. They wouldn't come to Ireland purely on spec.

If they do come over because there are jobs here, then great. More workers = more tax = better for the economy. Impact on schools and health service could be a factor, but that is no different to the current situation because the problems we have with those systems isn't going away and it isn't going to fix itself. If the possibility of additional workers is sufficient to make the Irish government focus a bit more on health and education then that is a good thing.

Calina

wpd wrote: »

I am concerned that Ireland will be flooded with east european migrants after brexit that are currently going to the UK

this doesnt seem to be getting discussed at all, impact on our schools and health service would be huge.

Am i wrong in thinking this is going to be an issue for Ireland???

TBH of the issues we face post Brexit, I don't this is going to be top of the list. We absorbed large numbers in the past and a significant number went home during the recession.

As a general rule, I don't like to see the word "flooded" used in this context - it tends to dehumanise people coming here to a) make a better life for themselves and b) contribute to our society. There's an element of xenophobia about it.

Our health and education system have issues but in the grand scheme of things, I think those problems are procedural. A key item which floods our health system is alcohol related illnesses and related emergency injuries. Most of that is home grown. In other words, rather than complaining about people who come here to build their lives - and the general evidence in the UK is that arriving EU workers tend to contribute to society rather than cost it - we need to look at the issues we create for ourselves. I've worked with a large number of foreigners and I've also had hobbies which included large numbers of French and Polish people.

Flooding the place is not how I would describe their contribution to society. They've added to the country in a positive manner.

In any case, people tend to go where there is work - and the economies of a lot of the Eastern European countries are generating work and as a result, the numbers moving out is falling and increased numbers are going home. They will not be coming to Ireland if there is little to no work for them, or if what work is available doesn't make it worth their while. The cost of living in Ireland will be making it unattractive. I know people in IT who wanted out because the salaries were not worth their while because Dublin just was too expensive to stay.

murphaph

I think Ireland is also less of a soft touch when it comes to claiming benefits (believe it or not!). There's a habitual residence test which must be passed before a raft of benefits can be claimed.

We may see a further tightening of the system to force EU migrants who have failed to find employment within a short period of time to return home, as is the practice in many EU countries. The UK of course never bothered trying this before opting for the nuclear option. I would hope we would!