No cars in Dublin CC....?

Middle Man

Deedsie wrote: »

My comment, "I'd swear he thinks cars are a better option than cycling"

Your response, "Well yeah..."

What else could someone take from that. It's gibberish but we have to try knock some coherence out of it.

I said 'cars are better than cycling' - not 'cars are best'...

Can you comprehend that???

Middle Man

Deedsie wrote: »

I'm anti car in urban centres. I love my car doesn't mean I feel the need to drive into town all the time. Cars are great for getting from the outskirts of A to the outskirts of B. Walk, run, cycle, bus, train etc the rest of the way to the town or city centre.

You are bizzarely anti cycling in all and any environment with zero sound reasoning. Give us some rational reasons why cycling shouldn't be encouraged?

...because pedestrians and public transport need the space - even without a single car in the city centre. Trams and motor transport (cars (as of now), buses etc) travel at more or less the same velocity in the city - pedestrians travel at a slower pace. Now, the city can just about handle this. With cycling, you're adding a third velocity of travel into the mix as cyclists are too fast for the footpath and too slow for the road (buses and trams) - there isn't the space for infrastructure that can properly handle three separate velocities of movement - just look and the number of pedestrians and buses in the city centre - add in trams to the mix - is there really any room for cycling - consider that many footpaths require urgent widening.

Victor

Middle Man wrote: »

Is this how you want Dublin's civic spaces to look?

To me, it's plain ugly - pedestrianisation and trams look far better IMO!

But imagine the same number of cars instead of bikes!

You can fit 8-9 bikes in the space of one car. You can also fit bike parking in places you can't put car parking.

cnocbui

Deedsie wrote: »

In no way are private cars are a better option than cycling in an urban environment. There is not enough space for thousands of single occupant private cars to block up space in our city centres every day.

Babies, children, strollers, shopping, some of the most miserable weather on the planet. Yeah, bikes are the so practical - if you are young, fit, male and don't mind yourself and everything you are carrying getting soaked.

cruizer101

While I do agree that cars need to be reduced in the city I don't agree with an outright ban, sometimes public transport just won't do. E.g. going to hospital.
A congestion charge would make more sense.

And also as many have said there is no point in banning cars when the alternatives aren't there

cnocbui

Deedsie wrote: »

Fairly sexist if you dont mind me saying. I see plenty of women cycling in Dublin every morning. Also plenty of space on trains and buses for strollers etc.

Entitlement again. "Why should I ever have to walk anywhere?"

I do mind you saying.

Have a good look in the mirror, sunshine, because I didn't mention or suggest women, it's your own sexist attitude that thought I did.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can you raise the standard of debate. This is about infrastructure, not a cyclist vs motorist forum - save that for somewhere else.

Sam Russell

Mod:

@Deedsie - Do not discuss mod decisions on thread - PM if you want to discuss them.

This is a warning.

spuddy

cruizer101 wrote: »

...And also as many have said there is no point in banning cars when the alternatives aren't there

I think you've hit the nail on the head. What's very clear, as witnessed by recent decisions, is that the powers-that-be have decided that painting lines on the road is the solution to our PT deficit. Much cheaper than than serious investment (a la MU and DU).

bk

spuddy wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head. What's very clear, as witnessed by recent decisions, is that the powers-that-be have decided that painting lines on the road is the solution to our PT deficit. Much cheaper than than serious investment (a la MU and DU).

A reminder that 80% of people who shop in Dublin City Center got there by walking, cycling and public transport. Only 19% got their by car.

So clearly the alternatives are already there for the vast majority of people.

It is a chicken and egg problem. People won't take public transport unless it is improved, but public transport can't be improved unless more space and priority is given over to it.

This plan will allow the buses and trams to travel even faster into town and thus improve public transport for everyone.

Of course I'd like to see MN and DU built too, but that will take many years, if not decades and even when they are built, Dublin Bus will still carry the majority of people and such bus priority measures will still be needed.

LXFlyer

spuddy wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head. What's very clear, as witnessed by recent decisions, is that the powers-that-be have decided that painting lines on the road is the solution to our PT deficit. Much cheaper than than serious investment (a la MU and DU).

I agree about your point about the lack of proper investment in public transport in the forms of MN and DU - absolutely 100%.

However the fact remains that DCC are faced with dealing with the very simple problem that the Green Line LUAS will be operating through the heart of the city centre every 3 minutes in both directions later this year.

They also have to deal with the practical issue that the length of the trams dictate that they have to have a clear run every 3 minutes from the Westmoreland Street / O'Connell Street junction to the stop opposite Easons on O'Connell Street northbound and from the Marlborough Street/Lower Abbey Street junction to Hawkins Street - otherwise they will block the junctions.

At the same time, roughly a dozen cross-city bus routes are going to be re-routed onto the North and South Quays between Capel Street and O'Connell Bridge due to the new plaza proposed on College Green. That is an awful lot of buses added into the mix.

With the best will in the world when you combine the LUAS frequency, the clearance that trams will need every 3 minutes, and the massive increase in the number of buses operating along the Quays, it doesn't take rocket science to realise that purely from a practical perspective something has to give.

At the same time I recognise that people should still be able to drive to the car parks and make deliveries - that is also recognised by DCC. And that can still happen.

However from a purely practical perspective, for the reasons outlined above, there are going to have to be compromises on the part of those drivers in the form of adjusted routes (which will be slightly longer) to allow for the public transport services to actually function - it simply won't work otherwise. But access will be maintained.

The main focus has to be on discouraging through traffic from the city centre and on to alternative routes. That's what these proposals attempt to do - there simply won't be room for that traffic any more when the LUAS starts operations - that's a practical issue - not one driven by ideology.

If the measures are not put in place, the bus service, which will remain the work horse of our public transport network until high capacity rail alternatives are put in place, will grind to a standstill.

Chivito550

cnocbui wrote: »

Babies, children, strollers, shopping, some of the most miserable weather on the planet. Yeah, bikes are the so practical - if you are young, fit, male and don't mind yourself and everything you are carrying getting soaked.

What the fupp does being male have to do with cycling?

cnocbui

Chivito550 wrote: »

What the fupp does being male have to do with cycling?

Most cyclists are male. Couldn't find the Irish statistic but for the UK it's 70%.

There was a good article on how in the UK, female cyclists are prone to being killed by trucks, with almost all female cyclist fatalities in the last few years involving them. I have anecdotally noticed the same here.

Chivito550

cnocbui wrote: »

Most cyclists are male. Couldn't find the Irish statistic but for the UK it's 70%.

There was a good article on how in the UK, female cyclists are prone to being killed by trucks, with almost all female cyclist fatalities in the last few years involving them. I have anecdotally noticed the same here.

Go to Amsterdam and you see old women on bikes. I don't mean middle aged. I mean proper old, carrying bags of shopping, in the rain, and they are women too. Pretty much rubbishes your whole post in one fell swoop.

cnocbui

Deedsie wrote: »

That kinda BS is what stops females in Ireland participating in active exercise after the age of 13. Anecdotal nonsense. I cycle every day and every day I see plenty of female cyclists. More men sure but its nonsense to suggest there is only a small number of female cyclists out there.

Well apart from your anecdotal input, do you have any reliable statistics from an unbiased source for this country? I rather doubt it.

I suggested 30% of cyclists were likely female.

At 2:35 you will see the number of female members of Cycling Ireland in 2012 was 15% with 6% taking part in competition. Now extrapolating to commuting would perhaps not be hugely accurate but any way you look at it there is no evidence i can find that would even hint at there being anything other than a very substantialy greater proportion of male cyclists.

And by the way. For the 12 years of my primary and secondary education, I cycled to and from school every day. I also was employed as a professional cyclist for 3 months, delivering telegrams, which enabled me to earn most of the price of my first car. Cycling is innately hazardous, is unsuited to this climate, and isn't for everyone.

I love Sean nos

the_syco wrote: »

Because that's where all the cars want to go. They're really just don't want to keep going straight.

Has anyone asked the drivers where they want to go?

cnocbui

Chivito550 wrote: »

Go to Amsterdam and you see old women on bikes. I don't mean middle aged. I mean proper old, carrying bags of shopping, in the rain, and they are women too. Pretty much rubbishes your whole post in one fell swoop.

Dublin isn't Amsterdam. My mother had two knee and one hip joint replaced and could no longer ride a bike afterwards, with shopping or in the rain. She had a disability sticker for her car and drove everywhere. Pretty much rubbishes your counter argument.

You picked one of the most bike friendly locations of the planet and used that to leverage your argument. That's tilting the pinball machine.

MJohnston

Oh god, not another thread ruined by the anti-cycling lot.

Back in topic, this is precisely why the Cross City extension should have Park and Ride facilities at or near Broombridge. Preferably the line would have gone another couple of km out towards the N3/M50 junction, and out one there, but even one at Broombridge would be a massive help. It'd add a lot of people from Cabra and Finglas, and the N3 corridor, who aren't currently close to one of the new stations, into the mix.

As it is, does anyone know if Dublin Bus might adjust their routes slightly to connect with the Luas? Has this happened with lines previously opened?

El Tarangu

cnocbui wrote: »

Dublin isn't Amsterdam. My mother had two knee and one hip joint replaced and could no longer ride a bike afterwards, with shopping or in the rain. She had a disability sticker for her car and drove everywhere. Pretty much rubbishes your counter argument.

You picked one of the most bike friendly locations of the planet and used that to leverage your argument. That's tilting the pinball machine.

Why is Amsterdam one of the most bike-friendly locations on the planet?

- because they made the decision to structure their city in this way, and invested loads in their cycling infrastructure.

For one accusing others of "tilting the pinball machine", your example is very specific; I doubt that many of the thousands upon thousands of people who drive into the city centre every day do so because of a disability.

cnocbui

Deedsie wrote: »

Unsuited to this climate. 12000+ cyclists in Dublin everyday. Nonsense argument. It is only dangerous because appropriate infrastructure for cyclists has not been provided due to the tiny amount of the transport budget afforded to cycling projects.

Of course it's not for everyone, nor is continuing to allow drivers and their sense of entitlement to park and drive everywhere regardless of the limitited urban roadspace.

Traffic congestion has ruined our town and city centres. It's time to reclaim our cities and town centres from single occupant private cars. Satellite car parks within walking distance of town/city centres and an upgraded pedestrian network has to be county councils approach in the future.

You really are an unbalanced fanatic. A whole 1.08% of the urban population cycle and you think that 'proves' the climate is appropriate?

98.02% of the urban population of Dublin don't cycle - that more strongly tends to suggest the climate is unsuitable than your fatuous claim.

cnocbui

MJohnston wrote: »

Oh god, not another thread ruined by the anti-cycling lot.

Back in topic, this is precisely why the Cross City extension should have Park and Ride facilities at or near Broombridge. Preferably the line would have gone another couple of km out towards the N3/M50 junction, and out one there, but even one at Broombridge would be a massive help. It'd add a lot of people from Cabra and Finglas, and the N3 corridor, who aren't currently close to one of the new stations, into the mix.

As it is, does anyone know if Dublin Bus might adjust their routes slightly to connect with the Luas? Has this happened with lines previously opened?

I'm out. The pro-cycling fanatics win.

Sam Russell

MJohnston wrote: »

Oh god, not another thread ruined by the anti-cycling lot.

Back in topic, this is precisely why the Cross City extension should have Park and Ride facilities at or near Broombridge. Preferably the line would have gone another couple of km out towards the N3/M50 junction, and out one there, but even one at Broombridge would be a massive help. It'd add a lot of people from Cabra and Finglas, and the N3 corridor, who aren't currently close to one of the new stations, into the mix.

As it is, does anyone know if Dublin Bus might adjust their routes slightly to connect with the Luas? Has this happened with lines previously opened?

The 7 and 7A are adjusted with the 7 going to Bride's Glen Luas stop. It is recent but never the less, it has happened.

So there is a chance.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Oh god, not another thread ruined by the anti-cycling lot.

Back in topic, this is precisely why the Cross City extension should have Park and Ride facilities at or near Broombridge. Preferably the line would have gone another couple of km out towards the N3/M50 junction, and out one there, but even one at Broombridge would be a massive help. It'd add a lot of people from Cabra and Finglas, and the N3 corridor, who aren't currently close to one of the new stations, into the mix.

As it is, does anyone know if Dublin Bus might adjust their routes slightly to connect with the Luas? Has this happened with lines previously opened?

There already is P & R facilities at Navan Road Parkway for the inner N3 corridor and at M3 Parkway for the outer traffic - there isn't space at Broombridge for one as the maintenance and storage facilities use that up.

I would imagine that there will be a review of the bus network in the area, but I don't see massive changes happening in terms of route redesign - people tend not to want to pay twice for a trip.

Deedsie

cnocbui wrote: »

You really are an unbalanced fanatic. A whole 1.08% of the urban population cycle and you think that 'proves' the climate is appropriate?

98.02% of the urban population of Dublin don't cycle - that more strongly tends to suggest the climate is unsuitable than your fatuous claim.

Back up that stat with a reference please.

21,500 pedestrians cross the canal everyday. 12000 cyclists cross the canal every day. 33500 pedestrians and cyclists v 52000 private cars and falling.

I wonder which causes the most disruption.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/big-rise-in-cyclists-riding-into-dublin-as-transport-heads-urge-network-overhaul-35457793.html

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

There already is P & R facilities at Navan Road Parkway for the inner N3 corridor and at M3 Parkway for the outer traffic - there isn't space at Broombridge for one as the maintenance and storage facilities use that up.

I would imagine that there will be a review of the bus network in the area, but I don't see massive changes happening in terms of route redesign - people tend not to want to pay twice for a trip.

Yes, I know about the existing P&R facilities, but they're not going to help people who want to use the Luas. There's no room in the actual station, but there's plenty surrounding it that could be used.

And yes, I agree that integrating the ticketing better needs to happen asap, even more so because of these car access changes

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Yes, I know about the existing P&R facilities, but they're not going to help people who want to use the Luas. There's no room in the actual station, but there's plenty surrounding it that could be used.

And yes, I agree that integrating the ticketing better needs to happen asap, even more so because of these car access changes

Where exactly are all these people going to drive from to use the LUAS?

Broombridge isn't exactly on a major arterial route?

There isn't large amount of space there. Look at google earth and the BXD alignment drawings. The entire site east of Broombridge Road is required for the depot and storage sidings.

West of Broombridge Road is built upon and private land.

Can't people park at one of the P & R stations and change at Broombridge?

Frankly I'd expect that most of the modal shift onto LUAS in this area is likely to be from the existing bus services.

Anyhow hasn't all of this more to do with LUAS Cross City rather than the traffic proposals for the city centre?

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Where exactly are all these people going to drive from to use the LUAS?

Most of west Finglas, Ashtown, Cabra, a good part of Castleknock, maybe even parts of Glasnevin could find it very useful if they were heading south of the city centre on the Green Line.

Broombridge isn't exactly on a major arterial route?

Maybe not, but it's very easy to get to from the N3, and pretty easy from the N2 too. N3 people might use the rail P&Rs if they're going to the right places, but the N2 has basically nothing.

There isn't large amount of space there. Look at google earth and the BXD alignment drawings. The entire site east of Broombridge Road is required for the depot and storage sidings.

West of Broombridge Road is built upon and private land.

I don't need to look, I live right around the corner and pass it all the time The point I've made here and in the past is that most of that private land might be built upon but is basically not used. Dublin Industrial Estate and the small bits south of the canal are ghost towns, and there are plenty of derelict/abandoned warehouses available within a 5 minute walk of Broombridge.

Can't people park at one of the P & R stations and change at Broombridge?

This only really makes sense for the stations further out - travelling from Navan Road to Broombridge and then transferring is the kind of little bit of extra hassle that would put enough people off of using public transport, I think.

Frankly I'd expect that most of the modal shift onto LUAS in this area is likely to be from the existing bus services.

Yes! I definitely agree, which is why I'm hoping that some of the bus routes will adjust in order to connect with the Luas.

Anyhow hasn't all of this more to do with LUAS Cross City rather than the traffic proposals for the city centre?

I originally brought it up as I think providing more Park and Ride services along more corridors will be vital with these traffic proposals.

Middle Man

Deedsie wrote: »

cnocbui wrote: »

You really are an unbalanced fanatic. A whole 1.08% of the urban population cycle and you think that 'proves' the climate is appropriate?

98.02% of the urban population of Dublin don't cycle - that more strongly tends to suggest the climate is unsuitable than your fatuous claim.

Back up that stat with a reference please.

21,500 pedestrians cross the canal everyday. 12000 cyclists cross the canal every day. 33500 pedestrians and cyclists v 52000 private cars and falling.

I wonder which causes the most disruption.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/big-rise-in-cyclists-riding-into-dublin-as-transport-heads-urge-network-overhaul-35457793.html

Could you also furnish us with the rail and tram usage stats so that we can see cycling in its real context...

...edit: You can factor in 89,000 for the Luas in 2015 - a lot of which I imagine pertains to the city centre. Add to that 43,800 ( 16m p.a.) for the DART - I'm sure commuter rail will add significantly to that figure.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Most of west Finglas, Ashtown, Cabra, a good part of Castleknock, maybe even parts of Glasnevin could find it very useful if they were heading south of the city centre on the Green Line.



Maybe not, but it's very easy to get to from the N3, and pretty easy from the N2 too. N3 people might use the rail P&Rs if they're going to the right places, but the N2 has basically nothing.



I don't need to look, I live right around the corner and pass it all the time The point I've made here and in the past is that most of that private land might be built upon but is basically not used. Dublin Industrial Estate and the small bits south of the canal are ghost towns, and there are plenty of derelict/abandoned warehouses available within a 5 minute walk of Broombridge.



This only really makes sense for the stations further out - travelling from Navan Road to Broombridge and then transferring is the kind of little bit of extra hassle that would put enough people off of using public transport, I think.



Yes! I definitely agree, which is why I'm hoping that some of the bus routes will adjust in order to connect with the Luas.



I originally brought it up as I think providing more Park and Ride services along more corridors will be vital with these traffic proposals.

To be fair the N2 has one of the few decent working QBCs around with an existing direct link to the inner Green Line in the form of the 140 bus.

I don't see a massive change in the bus routes happening - the 38, 46a 120, 122 will all pass close by or adjacent to a LUAS stop.

As I've already said I'd expect most of the traffic to come from the local Cabra, Phibsborough and NCR areas rather than to be coming from further afield (except for rail transfers).

I really don't expect existing bus routes to be re-routed to be honest.

Middle Man

lxflyer wrote: »

MJohnston wrote: »

Yes, I know about the existing P&R facilities, but they're not going to help people who want to use the Luas. There's no room in the actual station, but there's plenty surrounding it that could be used.

And yes, I agree that integrating the ticketing better needs to happen asap, even more so because of these car access changes

Where exactly are all these people going to drive from to use the LUAS?

Broombridge isn't exactly on a major arterial route?

There isn't large amount of space there. Look at google earth and the BXD alignment drawings. The entire site east of Broombridge Road is required for the depot and storage sidings.

West of Broombridge Road is built upon and private land.

Can't people park at one of the P & R stations and change at Broombridge?

Frankly I'd expect that most of the modal shift onto LUAS in this area is likely to be from the existing bus services.

Anyhow hasn't all of this more to do with LUAS Cross City rather than the traffic proposals for the city centre?

Well without the Luas, you wouldn't get very far with reducing car traffic - in fact, at least two more Luas lines are needed (Lucan-South Docks and Greenhills-Coolock) as well as extending the Green Line to Charlestown, Finglas. Then there is Metro and Dart expansion needs. If you want to reduce car traffic, then we need to invest big time!