Female Harassment

magicbastarder

velo.2010 wrote: »

An alternative video of what is typical for women (and some men) to experience while cycling and how to deal with it appropriately, if serious, should be made.

probably has been. won't go viral though.

Chuchote

smacl wrote: »

Indeed. Main problem I had with the video is that it suggests that the response from the female cyclist is a sensible course of action. You see one outcome, which is the one desired by the prospective audience of the people who made the video, but other possible outcomes include the guys getting out of the van and decking her, her getting prosecuted for damaging the van etc... Worth remembering as well is that while this is presented as an isolated incident, if it is a regular commute route for her and the van they're liable to come into contact again. Better to report the incident to the police, if it is marked van report it to the employers, and either de-escalate and move on or involve more people at the scene to highlight the abusive actions of the guys in the van and limit their ability to get away with it.

Unfortunately reporting this kind of behaviour to either police or employers will get any woman an indulgent laugh and "Ah sure boys will be boys". It would be nice if this were not so, though.

Effects

smacl wrote: »

Indeed. Main problem I had with the video is that it suggests that the response from the female cyclist is a sensible course of action.

No it doesn't, there's no suggestion of that at all. It suggests the workmen got what they deserved.

smacl

Effects wrote: »

No it doesn't, there's no suggestion of that at all. It suggests the workmen got what they deserved.

The successful outcome depicted might well lead others to behave in a similar way in the hope of a similar outcome, whereas doing so is liable to have a much worse result.

plodder

Claims that the incident was staged.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/22/furious-cyclist-gets-revenge-catcalling-van-driver-viral-video/

smacl

Chuchote wrote: »

Unfortunately reporting this kind of behaviour to either police or employers will get any woman an indulgent laugh and "Ah sure boys will be boys". It would be nice if this were not so, though.

What else are you going to do though? Attacking cars or vans of someone giving you abuse is more likely to inflame them than humiliate or shame them. I'm not sure it is fair to be entirely dismissive of the Gardaí either. If the situation is one where a guy in a van makes any physical contact with the cyclist, as depicted in the video, that could reasonably be considered assault. Some Guards might dismiss it, similarly some employers, others would not. People who behave abusively may also have done so before, and have existing complaints against them. Not saying it is an ideal solution, just that you need to consider which course of action you take is liable to lead to the best outcome with minimum risk of a very bad outcome.

cdaly_

doozerie wrote: »

And as for the irony of using words to argue that words don't matter, well that's just having your foot and eating it really.

Lusk_Doyle

Not sure if it has been posted yet, but I think that this was staged. Just saying.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Not sure if it has been posted yet, but I think that this was staged. Just saying.

It has been said before. Have any proof of that or is it just a stab in the dark?

smacl

Arturo Dry Skater wrote: »

It has been said before. Have any proof of that or is it just a stab in the dark?

From PX's link it seems likely, given that the people who released the video have publicly stated it may not be factually correct and have since commenced an internal investigation to ensure that it does not happen again.

Do think it is real?

BorneTobyWilde

Staging it is not illegal is it. They done a brilliant job and got millions of views. Mission accomplished . Earned them lots of money.
It's really very smart.

smacl

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Staging it is not illegal is it. They done a brilliant job and got millions of views. Mission accomplished . Earned them lots of money.
It's really very smart.

If you're a company that makes its money by selling news items that is then found to be selling fake news, no I'd say it is pretty stupid and potentially very damaging to the business.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

smacl wrote: »

Do think it is real?

Not after reading that article. Before, I had no reason not to believe it. Media is dangerous as fook.

BorneTobyWilde

The fake News could be the News that is calling it fake news.

BorneTobyWilde

smacl wrote: »

If you're a company that makes its money by selling news items that is then found to be selling fake news, no I'd say it is pretty stupid and potentially very damaging to the business.

Wasn't it just another youtube video to attract views. So many fake pranks on there that are staged, why is this different.

CramCycle

Regardless of the authenticity of the video, it is not a stretch to imagine this could have been genuine. I always thought Ireland was one of the nicer places for females to live in, and probably is (which is a sad state of affairs) but after hearing some of the stories my daughter tells me about the behaviour of some (not all) men, some of us are still a fair bit behind the curve in regards decency and acceptable standards of behaviour. There are people who are guilty of it towards men, and lets not pretend that it does not happen, and no, it is not always welcome but the other side is it is heavily skewed towards women and denial of such is inappropriate.

It is an effective advert in that few people thought it was faked on initial viewing, as if such behaviour is either common place or even acceptable by some.

magicbastarder

i've heard worse than is heard in the video. thankfully someone bigger and scarier looking than me was on hand to deal with the situation, thus relieving me of the shame of not doing anything about it.

smacl

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Wasn't it just another youtube video to attract views. So many fake pranks on there that are staged, why is this different.

Because the company in question was selling it on as news to other media providers.

Jungle Creations, which according to the Guardian was asking for fees of between £150 and £400 from publications wishing to use the video, then issued a statement on its website admitted that the video may have been staged.

I'd guess a number of their clients could be reluctant to use them again.

smacl

CramCycle wrote: »

Regardless of the authenticity of the video, it is not a stretch to imagine this could have been genuine. I always thought Ireland was one of the nicer places for females to live in, and probably is (which is a sad state of affairs) but after hearing some of the stories my daughter tells me about the behaviour of some (not all) men, some of us are still a fair bit behind the curve in regards decency and acceptable standards of behaviour.

Worth noting the video was shot in the UK (red busses if you look, and posted in UK edition of the Sun), so not really indicative of what goes on in Ireland even if it wasn't a fake.

AndrewJRenko

Effects wrote: »

I know a woman who had her ass slapped by someone in a passing car!

Happened to me once - turned out that the car was a write-off, uninsured.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

She chased them down to destroy a wing mirror , the video only kicks in at that moment, you're operating under the assumption that these lads just randomly accosted her, in reality she could have cut them off or any other number of bad cycling etiquette to provoke that. Nobody knows what happened before the biker started filming it.

Yeah, she was asking for it, wasn't she - just like most victims of bullying and harassment? :mad:

Airyfairy12

Its been happening since I was 14, we'd be hanging round town on a Saturday or weekdays in our school uniforms and get catcalled, screamed at and followed around by men twice our age. At 15 walking past a bookies after the cinema a man older than my dad, standing with his friends grabbed my backside then laughed about it and joked with his mates as I tried to walk on.

When I was with my ex his friends would tell me to shut my mouth, get back in the kitchen and call me a walking vagina.

It doesnt happen as much now, im more able to stand up for myself and not allow myself to be a victim but I literally cower when I have to walk past a group of men, arms folded, head down and give a F off vibe.
When it does happen I feel so uncomfortable and it can be quite scary sometimes. Walking home from town a few weeks ago about 9 o'clock at night, dressed in black pants, cons and a black jumper, a group of about 6 men start shouting at me, what they want me to do to their dick, asking if im Tinder... it was so awkward.
Sometimes men will catcall and when you ignore it they call you a slut, skank or dog. It's horrible.

Parchment

smacl wrote: »

Worth noting the video was shot in the UK (red busses if you look, and posted in UK edition of the Sun), so not really indicative of what goes on in Ireland even if it wasn't a fake.

How is it not indicative? Its pretty similar to what women worldwide get subjected to.

CramCycle

smacl wrote: »

Worth noting the video was shot in the UK (red busses if you look, and posted in UK edition of the Sun), so not really indicative of what goes on in Ireland even if it wasn't a fake.

From talking to work colleagues and my daughter, it is pretty mild compared to some of their stories. Great episode of Master of None where they compare a night out between two male friends and a female co worker. meant to be a comedy, could be frighteningly realistic.

TheBlaaMan

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Its been happening since I was 14, we'd be hanging round town on a Saturday or weekdays in our school uniforms and get catcalled, screamed at and followed around by men twice our age. At 15 walking past a bookies after the cinema a man older than my dad, standing with his friends grabbed my backside then laughed about it and joked with his mates as I tried to walk on.

When I was with my ex his friends would tell me to shut my mouth, get back in the kitchen and call me a walking vagina.

It doesnt happen as much now, im more able to stand up for myself and not allow myself to be a victim but I literally cower when I have to walk past a group of men, arms folded, head down and give a F off vibe.
When it does happen I feel so uncomfortable and it can be quite scary sometimes. Walking home from town a few weeks ago about 9 o'clock at night, dressed in black pants, cons and a black jumper, a group of about 6 men start shouting at me, what they want me to do to their dick, asking if im Tinder... it was so awkward.
Sometimes men will catcall and when you ignore it they call you a slut, skank or dog. It's horrible.

I suppose I shouldnt be shocked and disgusted by this behavoiur, but I am. Sorry that you have to experience this, and regularly, it seems.......

smacl

CramCycle wrote: »

From talking to work colleagues and my daughter, it is pretty mild compared to some of their stories.

Not sure what age yours are, mine two girls are 14 and 17, and while we certainly get some colourful stories back from them, very few relate to first hand experience. FWIW, two nephews have been beaten up (once quite badly) at similar ages. I think it is all too easy to see something like this and draw false conclusions as a result, a similar type of knee jerk reaction to the dangers of cycling without a helmet after listening to the usual suspects on RTE. Better to read up on what type of risks are out there and how to get your kids to recognise and avoid them. Rory Miller makes for a good read on dealing with conflict and understanding violence.

Great episode of Master of None where they compare a night out between two male friends and a female co worker. meant to be a comedy, could be frighteningly realistic.

No offence, but I wouldn't place too much store in either a fake video shot in the UK for dramatic effect or a US Sitcom.

CramCycle

smacl wrote: »

Not sure what age yours are, mine two girls are 14 and 17, and while we certainly get some colourful stories back from them, very few relate to first hand experience.

She is 20, typically revolves around guys grabbing arms, slapping arses and refusing the word no, or not understanding go away in bars. Most of it is just incredibly uncomfortable leering and hovering, in the grand scheme of things, not the worst thing. Thankfully she is always around friends but it does happen more than people think. In a various different social circles, all of which are small, I can recall stories of attempted and sometimes actual sexual assault (I know they are both assault but I think you know what I mean). Stories go both ways though, met a taxi driver who was hauled out of his by the AGS after accusations were made by a person against him. He was lucky that he actually had CCTV in the car and all that had happened was the drunk fool tried to do a legger rather than pay the fare, so drunk she fell over, he figured getting out to go for the money was not worth the hassle and once she stood up, he drove off and left it there. I have been there when people have been spiked, once spiked myself by a person who worked next door and we met up for a drink. Nothing happened.
The world is not more dangerous now then it was when I was that age, I just think people are more vocal about such things. I am certainly not drawing conclusions. My values are different than other peoples, they may be better, they may be worse, depending on your own. I certainly do not think it is dangerous to let my daughter out, I know that statistically she is not really in much danger (although stats are pretty much useless when so many crimes do not get reported).

FWIW, two nephews have been beaten up (once quite badly) at similar ages.

Got the sh1t kicked out of myself several times, certainly not a fighter. I think people like hitting my face, rare they went for the stomach. Once was because a good friend of mine did not like the guy hitting on her and pretended she was with me, guy waited for me outside of the club after words inside, so he could show me the error of my ways. All the times I got the sh1t kicked out of me, only one I can recall I deserved it, and thankfully it was a pretty short event and the gent was nice enough to realise that once I was on the ground that the lesson was learned.

I think it is all too easy to see something like this and draw false conclusions as a result, a similar type of knee jerk reaction to the dangers of cycling without a helmet after listening to the usual suspects on RTE. Better to read up on what type of risks are out there and how to get your kids to recognise and avoid them.

Its not a knee jerk reaction though, there are people like that in the world. I am not changing or adapting my lifestyle because of it, more surprise at smoe reactions to it, but I certainly was not surprised by the fake video.

No offence, but I wouldn't place too much store in either a fake video shot in the UK for dramatic effect or a US Sitcom.

Neither would I but the fact that one was so easily believed, shows that most people accept that there are creeps like that all over the place. The sitcom was just that, telling a story, are you telling me that nothing like that has ever happened? Millions of people a week in Ireland, get home perfectly safe every week in Ireland, events like those described are probably a tiny % if you look at the grand scheme of things. My daughter is well versed in what to do, it is unlikely that she will ever have to take drastic action, this is not a knee jerk reaction, this is just me saying that just because the video is fake, does not mean this behaviour does not happen.
Your two girls are 14 and 17, they will be going out soon if not already. They will get leered at, they will receive comments by randomers walking by, out of the two of them, one will have a story about a person who was too pushy and too creepy so she just bailed and went home or had to nestle in with her friends until he/she went away. Statistically, it is unlikely to be any more than that, unfortunately in this day and age, this seems to be a good result. At least it is out in the open. Remember, they are your daughters, you are unlikely to hear these stories back for a few years, if ever.
I have stories from my aunt about going to dances when she was a teenager with her older sisters and having to lock herself in a car as a drunk guy started beating against the car for her to let him in.
Like I said, nothing has changed, it is not more dangerous nowadays as far as I can tell, thankfully though, people are a bit more vocal about it.

magicbastarder

CramCycle wrote: »

a drunk guy started beating against the car for her to let him in.

i read this the wrong way first.

CramCycle

magicbastarder wrote: »

i read this the wrong way first.

I read the story and realised where it would go. Rural Ireland was a funny place.

smacl

CramCycle wrote: »

Neither would I but the fact that one was so easily believed, shows that most people accept that there are creeps like that all over the place.

If you look at the video, you can break it into two parts. The first part where the girl gets a load of abuse from a couple of guys in a van, which is common enough. (Happens to blokes too). Second part she chases them down, tears the driver side wing mirror off the van while being filmed by our intrepid cameraman, then cycles off into the sunset while our cameraman friend lets the guys know they're scumbags and had it coming to them. IMHO, the second part of the video has been scripted as our preferred outcome to the first half of the video, done in such a way as to appeal to a large audience and be easy to sell on to a news site. Like everyone else here, I was taken in by it on the first viewing, but after reading the subsequent analysis I've no doubt it is faked. Unfortunately, wanting something to be real doesn't make it so, however much it might appeal to our sense of social justice.

This issue I have with the video is response is the wrong one, as it glamorises the conflict. Effective self defence is not measured by the number of fights we win, it is measured by the number of fights we don't lose. Best way of not losing a fight is by not getting into one, so while my eldest for example is a fair boxer and can certainly give and take few digs, my advise to her has always been to avoid conflict and get out of dodge before things get nasty. While chasing down two scumbags in a van on a bicycle in order achieve a moral victory might seem noble, noble doesn't pay your hospital or legal bills if things don't pan out. A friend wrote a good blog on this subject a few years back that is worth a read.

FWIW, had the crap beaten out of me very many times too, but always in a competitive situation that was largely controlled which I could walk (limp!) away from. Short of protecting my loved ones or myself from serious harm, I wouldn't get involved in the real world fight unless there was no other viable alternative. Its a mugs game, plain and simple.

tomasrojo

smacl wrote: »

Its a mugs game, plain and simple.

By and large, I have to agree.