What's the money like?

moycullen14 · 15-03-2017 12:28pm

jester77 wrote: »

I've not experienced that, worked with lots of co-located teams, still do and it's not a problem. Could be an issue with the tools? We have hipchat, slack and cisco for keeping teams in sync. JIRA for agile process, github enterprise for code/issues. All meetings happens as planned, everyone dials in. We also have a few Double Robotics that float around so you can login and drive over to someones desk if really needed.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I find these multi-way conference calls a pain. I spend a lot of time talking to people in the US/India and, to be honest, I never know who is speaking - everyone sounds the same to me - and I can't see people. Video helps but that's fraught with problems too!

It seems that you can use all the technology in the world and all you get is a pale imitation of people being together.

Not being colocated with my coworkers doesn't suit me. Selfish, I know, and there may be good reasons why someone is remote/part-time but it makes my job more difficult and is of no benefit to me. It's one of the few things Marissa Mayer got right at Yahoo!

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/08/ibm_no_more_telecommuting/
http://business.financialpost.com/executive/a-giant-leap-backward-marissa-mayer-under-fire-for-banning-employees-from-working-from-home

beauf · 15-03-2017 1:14pm

I think it depends on the individuals and the project. Some people (regardless of where they are from) are excellent communicators and some are abysmal. Likewise some projects suit remote working and some need people on site. If there's is a mismatch in any of this, it causes delays or the project to fail.

I communicate with two off site developers. One never replies, the other replies within the working day, usually within the hour. I will refuse any projects where the first guy is involved in the future. The second guy I would happily work with no matter where in the world he is.

I expect people will block flexible working then complain still further they can't get any staff.

Some of my contracts I worked a couple of day off site then a few on site. Same days every week. Was a really productive compromise in my opinion.

purpleisafruit · 15-03-2017 2:53pm

beauf wrote: »

I think it depends on the individuals and the project. Some people (regardless of where they are from) are excellent communicators and some are abysmal. Likewise some projects suit remote working and some need people on site. If there's is a mismatch in any of this, it causes delays or the project to fail.

I communicate with two off site developers. One never replies, the other replies within the working day, usually within the hour. I will refuse any projects where the first guy is involved in the future. The second guy I would happily work with no matter where in the world he is.

I expect people will block flexible working then complain still further they can't get any staff.

Some of my contracts I worked a couple of day off site then a few on site. Same days every week. Was a really productive compromise in my opinion.

Flexible working is a big thing for me with any job. I'll always put in my hours and drop everything to resolve a problem any time of day or night. There needs to be the same level of give and take from the employer.
The ability to work from home when needed is great in my last few jobs. We have a guy here who works Mondays and Fridays from home without issue. He does have a 160km commute every day

BrokenArrows · 15-03-2017 3:38pm

moycullen14 wrote: »

I know it's unpopular but am I the only one who thinks remote and part-time working doesn't, well, work very well?

Fine if you can work in isolation but, in my experience, that is rare enough. Development is a collaborative, team activity and for that you need effective communication. Anything that gets in the way of that communication - not being on-site, not being available - decreases the efficiency of a team.

I've experienced Scrum/Agile where the team was NOT colocated and it was a mess (although there were other reasons for that).

If one person works remotely then there is a tendency for others to want to. You can't allow one person and refuse another - even if it is inappropriate. If you're not careful you end up with half your team not present at any given time.

I guess the real reason I am against it, though, is that it makes my life more difficult. Coimmunication via IM & email is a PITA. It can be extremely time-consuming, especially when trying to explain/understand tricky tech or business issues.

Bring on the abuse!

You're not 100% wrong but it works in a lot of situations given the right management and the right employee.
Not everyone is suitable for remote working.

Im my experience in order for a remote team to work there needs to be a strong manager who keeps everyone on track and making sure people are maintaining productivity and communication.

I work from the office, but im the only one in my team in this office, so I technically would consider myself in a similar situation to a remote/home worker.

Over the years there have been times when i admit i slacked off big style and wasnt nearly as productive as i should have been. But there is nobody watching me and nothing was mentioned.

Personally i think my management should keep a closer eye on us and checkin from time to time to make sure the work is actually being done.

Whether its listening in on the scrum calls or glancing through the SVN checkins to make sure stuff is being accomplished.

beauf · 15-03-2017 4:06pm

Sometimes you might have a bug tracking system, or specific discrete bits of development, which is easier to show work being done.

Where trying to solve a tricky problem, might have nothing to show for it.

14ned · 15-03-2017 4:21pm

moycullen14 wrote: »

I know it's unpopular but am I the only one who thinks remote and part-time working doesn't, well, work very well?

As a 100% professional remote working contractor, I would agree in 20% of cases everybody needs to be onsite, in the other 80% there is no need for being onsite. It's a waste of time and resources to enforce an outmoded software development methodology, plus you get stuck with whatever the local talent is.

moycullen14 wrote: »

Fine if you can work in isolation but, in my experience, that is rare enough. Development is a collaborative, team activity and for that you need effective communication. Anything that gets in the way of that communication - not being on-site, not being available - decreases the efficiency of a team.

The value of communication is WAY overestimated for most projects. Every time you "communicate" you break concentration and ruin productivity.

When my clients ask me my preferred form of communication, I say "weekly reports by email". That usually surprises them. But most open source is developed collaboratively via a public source control repo and email and has been for thirty years. The "least interaction" development pattern works, and works well.

IF, that is in these circumstances:

1. Everybody understands what the end goal is.

2. People aren't so lazy to not read the other member's commit logs each morning before they start work. If you spot someone going in a weird direction, fire off an email.

3. Sudden changes in direction or work suit this model very badly. Scrums of a month or longer work better.

4. Everybody trusts one another to do good work. I've found this part in particular to be lacking in most permie orgs where everyone assumes everyone outside their team is incompetent at best or malicious at worst.

5. Merging of feature branches into mainline is peer reviewed before the merge, usually via written or sometimes oral defence.

6. There is no enormous rush on the project to deliver impossible goals by some ridiculous deadline. This development model does not suit deadlines, but it handles unplanned absences extremely well. I've seen development halt from one person for two months without it particularly causing problems.

moycullen14 wrote: »

I've experienced Scrum/Agile where the team was NOT colocated and it was a mess (although there were other reasons for that).

Mixed remote and onsite scrums don't work. Getting all the onsite people to pretend to be remote for the scrum can work well, including morning standups. Just do everything over Skype/whatever.

moycullen14 wrote: »

If one person works remotely then there is a tendency for others to want to. You can't allow one person and refuse another - even if it is inappropriate. If you're not careful you end up with half your team not present at any given time.

And so what? That's that trust thing I mentioned earlier. Do you trust your team? If so, if they're in a pub drinking when they're supposed to be working that's on them, not you. They'll deliver high quality work when they're supposed to, how they achieve that isn't your worry.

moycullen14 wrote: »

I guess the real reason I am against it, though, is that it makes my life more difficult. Coimmunication via IM & email is a PITA. It can be extremely time-consuming, especially when trying to explain/understand tricky tech or business issues.

Bring on the abuse!

It's good of you to be honest that your real opposition is that it's inconvenient for you, and it's your work patterns and preferences which are the problem. No doubt if you impose onsite work patterns on remote workers, you'll get a subpar experience.

Impose the same work patterns which have evolved over thirty years of developing open source, and you'll see very good results. Most independent remote workers are specialists and are very good at what they do. You point them at a problem and it gets solved. Very little hand holding.

For example, my next likely contract is a finance multinational who wishes to reduce average trade processing latency from just under 200 microseconds to something much lower in their pretty antique C++ codebase. I'll be working in collaboration with their onsite team to achieve a hopefully 20% average reduction, and an 80-90% reduction in max latency. There is some training and knowledge transfer involved, but most of my time I'll just be taking old tired code and sprucing it up to run quicker. Very well defined goals, I'll be ensuring everyone studies my commits to learn from them, no changes in direction, no ridiculous deadlines. I expect it to be very successful contract for everybody.

Niall

beauf · 15-03-2017 4:55pm

I think many of the places who need to see you to believe you are working. Are the very places who don't measure productivity properly.

By that I mean they don't know who achieves their objectives. Many places think you aren't busy unless they see you stressed and pulling your hair out, and staying longer to complete work, and missing deadlines.

limnam · 18-03-2017 7:09pm

moycullen14 wrote: »

I know it's unpopular but am I the only one who thinks remote and part-time working doesn't, well, work very well?

Two words. Linux kernel.

moycullen14 · 21-03-2017 7:13pm

limnam wrote: »

Two words. Linux kernel.

Hardly a typical project, is it?

Can't imagine Linus putting up with the cr*p most of us mere mortals spend our days dealing with.

http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus

srsly78 · 21-03-2017 9:41pm

Most of us mere mortals would be fired if we expressed our views as frankly as Linus.

limnam · 21-03-2017 11:46pm

moycullen14 wrote: »

Hardly a typical project, is it?

You're right, it's the biggest software engineering project on the planet. Arguably the most important. Yet it ticks a long like a swiss watch.

So the issue is not remote workers.

It's incompetent ones combined with bad management.

beauf · 22-03-2017 12:48am

A Swiss watch is the last thing I'd describe the Linux project as.

Its as far from a typical IT project, or a model for remote working as you can get.

limnam · 22-03-2017 12:57am

beauf wrote: »

A Swiss watch is the last thing I'd describe the Linux project as.

The release schedule is currently pretty close to a swiss watch

beauf wrote: »

Its as far from a typical IT project, or a model for remote working as you can get.

The point is not about how typical it is, much the opposite.

It's the biggest software project there is.

The amount of committers and commit rate for such a complex piece of software is staggering.

If remote working can work here it can work almost anywhere.

Again remote working is not the problem.

Poor management and incompetent engineers are the real issue.

beauf · 22-03-2017 3:03am

Not everyone is a Linux kernel developer.
Not every project is a kernel.

moycullen14 · 22-03-2017 9:51am

srsly78 wrote: »

Most of us mere mortals would be fired if we expressed our views as frankly as Linus.

Who hasn't wanted to send an email like this? :eek:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75?cm_mc_uid=77473307177814280731885&cm_mc_sid_50200000=1490172641

limnam · 22-03-2017 7:16pm

beauf wrote: »

Not everyone is a Linux kernel developer.
Not every project is a kernel.

That's as true as it is irrelevant.

14ned · 22-03-2017 8:35pm

beauf wrote: »

Not everyone is a Linux kernel developer.
Not every project is a kernel.

Sure, but for anything else you can think of, there is a large, mostly remote working open source equivalent. For example:

* KDE or GNOME, windowing systems

* Apache <insert Apache subproject here>

* LibreOffice, an office suite

* VideoLAN, an all singing and dancing media player

... and so on. Point is that remote working works very successfully if you adopt work practices and processes which favour it. Not rushing stuff out the door half finished is by far one of the biggest differences.

Niall

beauf · 22-03-2017 10:03pm

I never said Remote Working doesn't work, I've worked remotely as a contractor, and in all sorts of companies. So I'm not sure what that strawman is directed at me.

I said not all projects or people are suited to it.

You might have to work in an offline environment with sensitive information that's not allowed off site, you might be working with a physical environment that can't be replicated off site, think medical devices, pharma, perhaps printers. Maybe its hardware diagnostic equipment. Perhaps its company policy, or govt policy. Perhaps the staff do not have the technical skills, or the experience, to be responsible. Perhaps it simply a management process to not allow it. Perhaps there are not the resources to manage it. All sorts of reasons. You might not agree with them, but they are often out of your control.

...and was said earlier, you're not always in a position where you can rant at people to embrass them into going away or doing stuff properly.

beauf · 22-03-2017 10:10pm

moycullen14 wrote: »

...I guess the real reason I am against it, though, is that it makes my life more difficult. Coimmunication via IM & email is a PITA. It can be extremely time-consuming, especially when trying to explain/understand tricky tech or business issues...

I have a problem with this. It suggesst an environment where things are not documented, and there is nothing to refer back to. In my experience most project suffer from a lack of recorded communication, not a excess of it. That said I'm more grumpy than usual about it, as one of the projects I'm involved in currently is a lets not write anything down project. The amount of mistakes and explaining the same things over, and having deja vu discussions is driving me nut. Its partly a remote project and its the lack of communication make it dysfunctional. It feels like I've stepped back in time.

kevthegaff · 22-03-2017 10:21pm

Have a computer science degree with a masters in software engineering which I completed ten yrs ago. I never went into the workforce as I set up a business (irrelevant of qualifications). Am I too long out of the game? And at what wage would I expect with some more re qualification starting off?

beauf · 22-03-2017 10:46pm

I will be interested to hear others opinions on this.

I'm guessing, as I have no direct experience of what you are trying to do. Lack of relevant experience will go against you. Age will be against you for roles that will give you experience. You won't be able to leverage your masters without experience. Though if you were to invest a decent amount of time refreshing your skill set and gaining experience by contributing to projects, maybe. I don't think it would be that easy though.

I get the feeling people want to be impressed with the persons skill set and experience over the past 2~3 yrs in current technologies. But I'm only guessing. I know some older tech people with good qualifications, but perhaps have recently moved from proprietary or old technologies and skill sets, but have recently re-skilled, seem to be struggling to get roles. Contracting seems a more successful fit.

Seth Brundle · 22-03-2017 10:54pm

I think your use of current technologies will be quite, if not completely, limited whilst you running a business whilst admirable could also mean that you might find it hard working for someone else now.

beauf · 22-03-2017 11:00pm

We had a discussion about this with colleagues and it was suggested to someone similar that if they re-skilled they'd never catch up with currently working developers. But something like DBA, Biz Analyst might be more achievable and have similar salaries. Or testing at the higher level. You could leverage your existing experience.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup · 23-03-2017 3:55am

kevthegaff wrote: »

Have a computer science degree with a masters in software engineering which I completed ten yrs ago. I never went into the workforce as I set up a business (irrelevant of qualifications). Am I too long out of the game? And at what wage would I expect with some more re qualification starting off?

i'm the exact same except I've a crappy Commerce degree from NUIG! Graduated in 2006 while I was making money online and just been hustling away since. Had a big Android app back in Summer 2013 which died in late 2014 and I've barely made any money since!

i've been living off the proceeds of the Android app while I try numerous new projects, all of which failed. kinda getting worried now with the bank balance constantly draining and I applied to nearly all Irish Android developer jobs over the last months and haven't got one reply. i don't blame them really, commerce degree and no real job experience. i've numerous published apps in iTunes and Google Play and nearly 9,509 StackOverflow score. i thought the StackOverflow score might get me a reply but nowt.

beauf · 23-03-2017 8:56am

You might consider getting work in the UK and commuting or remote working, at least in the short-term. Much bigger market there. I know a few doing that, contractors and even some web designers.

h57xiucj2z946q · 23-03-2017 10:01am

georgiecasey wrote: »

i'm the exact same except I've a crappy Commerce degree from NUIG! Graduated in 2006 while I was making money online and just been hustling away since. Had a big Android app back in Summer 2013 which died in late 2014 and I've barely made any money since!

i've been living off the proceeds of the Android app while I try numerous new projects, all of which failed. kinda getting worried now with the bank balance constantly draining and I applied to nearly all Irish Android developer jobs over the last months and haven't got one reply. i don't blame them really, commerce degree and no real job experience. i've numerous published apps in iTunes and Google Play and nearly 9,509 StackOverflow score. i thought the StackOverflow score might get me a reply but nowt.

If you have code online at GitHub or similar, throw that on the C.V also.

jester77 · 23-03-2017 10:55am

georgiecasey wrote: »

i'm the exact same except I've a crappy Commerce degree from NUIG! Graduated in 2006 while I was making money online and just been hustling away since. Had a big Android app back in Summer 2013 which died in late 2014 and I've barely made any money since!

i've been living off the proceeds of the Android app while I try numerous new projects, all of which failed. kinda getting worried now with the bank balance constantly draining and I applied to nearly all Irish Android developer jobs over the last months and haven't got one reply. i don't blame them really, commerce degree and no real job experience. i've numerous published apps in iTunes and Google Play and nearly 9,509 StackOverflow score. i thought the StackOverflow score might get me a reply but nowt.

Are you familiar with dependency injection using Dagger 2 and reactive programming with RxJava(2). They are a must now to be considered for working on a professional app. Plus any code you produce should follow the SOLID principles, clean architecture with MVP/MVVM should be how you work. Also testing is very important, Roboelectric, espresso and mockito are something you need a deep understanding of. Kotlin is a nice to have, lots of organisations are migrating parts of their code base over to kotlin at the moment. This is something you should start getting familiar with.

moycullen14 · 23-03-2017 1:04pm

beauf wrote: »

I have a problem with this. It suggesst an environment where things are not documented, and there is nothing to refer back to. In my experience most project suffer from a lack of recorded communication, not a excess of it. That said I'm more grumpy than usual about it, as one of the projects I'm involved in currently is a lets not write anything down project. The amount of mistakes and explaining the same things over, and having deja vu discussions is driving me nut. Its partly a remote project and its the lack of communication make it dysfunctional. It feels like I've stepped back in time.

It isn't about documentation, it's about communication - proper two-way, conversation. Face-to-face conversations can save time and be much better than email ping-pong.

dazberry · 23-03-2017 1:11pm

georgiecasey wrote: »

I applied to nearly all Irish Android developer jobs over the last months and haven't got one reply. i don't blame them really, commerce degree and no real job experience.

A lot of companies seem to think it's okay to just ignore applicants if you don't make the cut for whatever reason - even trying to get feedback via an agency can sometimes be tricky. Personally I think it's the height of ignorance.

moycullen14 · 23-03-2017 1:24pm

georgiecasey wrote: »

i'm the exact same except I've a crappy Commerce degree from NUIG! Graduated in 2006 while I was making money online and just been hustling away since. Had a big Android app back in Summer 2013 which died in late 2014 and I've barely made any money since!

i've been living off the proceeds of the Android app while I try numerous new projects, all of which failed. kinda getting worried now with the bank balance constantly draining and I applied to nearly all Irish Android developer jobs over the last months and haven't got one reply. i don't blame them really, commerce degree and no real job experience. i've numerous published apps in iTunes and Google Play and nearly 9,509 StackOverflow score. i thought the StackOverflow score might get me a reply but nowt.

When I read posts like this I think 'We have a developer shortage, really?'

You had a successful app, you have many apps in the app store and you are active on StackOverflow. Isn't this what you'd be expected to do as an App Developer? Your educational qualifications shouldn't really matter at this stage. Sounds like you're getting blocked by the gatekeepers (HR or agencies). You might try and bypass them. Try and make contact directly with engineering and project managers in your target companies. It won't work all the time but you don't need it to.

What's the money like?

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