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Flatline.....
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22-02-2017 5:29pm#1
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Maybe I'm way off the mark here but it appears to me that after a couple years of consistent and structured training a lot of people hit a plateau across the swim, bike and run. It takes a lot of work and hours to squeeze more gains out of the bike in particular and swim if you're an adult onset swimmer. This got me wondering what level of effort is required to simply maintain your gains? I know it will depend on the distance you are racing but is there a minimum level of training that will have you keep what you have? Or is it like most things and simply needs to be viewed on a case by case basis?
P.
Time to get yourself a TUE and go up a notch
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second child, only time x+x =3x.
broadly in agreement with your post PG, but i think part of the problem is people become very attached to the training plan that got them where they are, for the very reason you say, it brought them big gains.it's not just in training i can't remember the name of the trend but we studied it during the MBA i did,young companies who become so reliant on the procedures that got them to where they are(which cen be very successful) that fear of changing hastens their doom. people are very reluctant to change something that is working.
my run sessions had been the same for the last few years, long run sunday, easy mondy, easy wednesday, intervals friday repeat. this year it all changed, wednesday became another interval day, most weeks harder than fridays. at first i thought it was madness, was going to complain to TMWTP, thought i'd get injured, thought the other sessions wold sufer, but then, i thought of this
and remembered something you said to me in Copenhagen or around then which was very true: for the amount of training you do how the hell are you so slow running. which was one of the more accurate observations i've gotten in a while. so i've rolled with it, and the improvement on the run has been immediate, no injuries(at thsi stage the run strength must be there anyway) and my easy/steady pace has moved up a gear , still no top end speed though
that's jsut an example though, an n=1 illustration. i've never read the book, been meaning to, but i saw this on an old bosses desk once and hte title has stuck with me since, a phrase i really believe in across everything in life
plus, in your circumstances, cut yourself a break. new baby, the added workloads of two kids, maintaining would be something to aim for for the next few months. 20 years time you'll look with pride at your kids, not the improvements you made in a 40km bike split in one season.
said to you before, i'm more impressed with the guys who work 50/60 hours a week, never miss time with their kids, and fit the 1 hour session into the only free hour they have of the day than i am with single folk who do 3 hours a day training and still have another 3 hours of free time . you scrimp and save your time to get the training in, and as much as we'd all love to improve, just holding what you;ve built up for a while is a win0 -
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I'll reply in more detail later but just a couple of things:
1. The constrained training has had me thinking about this and I'm fine with reduced hours of between 7 to 10 hours a week depending on how things are at home
2. I've noticed this trend based on my data for the last few years and also from people posting FTP & 400TT results on here over the last few years. Gains tend to be small unless you jump to hours that most married with kids folks don;t have available.
Or perhaps it's as mossy alluded to - different stimulus is required.
My reduced availability is what really drove the "what's the minimum required to hold what I have" However, I also believe that the other side of it is true for most people. Gains come fast with structure and consistency but level off and the next jump can be hard to achieve. 0 -
My reduced availability is what really drove the "what's the minimum required to hold what I have" .
i suppose you could expand on this a bit, as i think the minimum will vary for different people over the 3 sports. pretty sure for example you could run a lot less than me and hold your run fitness, others can hop out of the pool for 6 months jump back in and swim close to the same pace.
figuring out where the focus needs to be is likely the challenge. reducing all by the same % is probably not the best approach.
and with kids being involved, the allowed times for training plays a huge factor as well.0 -
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I didn't really want to make this about me but given the examples you give I guess it all depends on peoples strengths and weaknesses
sorry, wasn't trying to make it about you, but it just served as a good example
at least you have one you could potentially look at
it's a good topic, one i'm definitely interested in.0 -
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sorry, wasn't trying to make it about you, but it just served as a good example
at least you have one you could potentially look at
it's a good topic, one i'm definitely interested in.
One what?
Hard not to make it about me when I started the thread and very difficult to talk in the abstract about some of this stuff0 -
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One what?
Hard not to make it about me when I started the thread and very difficult to talk in the abstract about some of this stuff
strength = running
some don't have one they can reduce more than the others. for them a flat reduction across all 3 and picking the key sessions probably works best. then it comes into frequency and duration questions, hard to get away from mileage for running, but 2 to 3 short swims might be enough to sustain, then it becomes a question whether 2 45 minute or 3 30 minute swims are easier for a person to do. same time, but much different load on the person in terms of commitment.0 -
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peter kern wrote: »At my current weight class I read fatline for the title...
and i guess maybe 80% should read it the same way for the real thread title ;-)
i'd be very surprised if that's all the insight you had to offer to this topic peter, even at a high level(given an understanding you're running a business and can't divulge everything here ) 0 -
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said to you before, i'm more impressed with the guys who work 50/60 hours a week, never miss time with their kids, and fit the 1 hour session into the only free hour they have of the day than i am with single folk who do 3 hours a day training and still have another 3 hours of free time . you scrimp and save your time to get the training in, and as much as we'd all love to improve, just holding what you;ve built up for a while is a win
I'd have equal respect for both as you've described two driven individuals but I'd have questions....
Unless I was running my own business or working as a junior doctor, I'd be questioning how a 60 hour work week has become the norm. Fine for short periods but generally productivity starts to slip after 8 hours and you're not going to get the same benefit from a session as someone who's fresh. Similarly, a hard session affects productivity and you begin the following day worse than the previous.
What in the name of God do you need three hours free time a day for!?!? Get back on the bike! 0 -
maintanceoh, and that's totally not answering your question on how much minimum is needed. i;ev no idea on that, but i am interested to see the answers
generally the rule of thumb would be you keep one sport going and then it will be easy to go back (ideally running which gives the best bang for the buck, and a bit of swimming)
so with 10 hours 6 hours runing 2.5 hour swimmng 1.5 cycling
or 4.5 1.5 1 would get you ready for everthing in the future and you could shave of half an hour of each sport. and that should help you to maintain a good base level.
re flatlining i think to be honest talent is a factor. and recovery time.
and then traiing, of course trainig structure is important but at the same time the shorter the distance the more talent you need.
and without enough recovery time its tough and often i do recomend single sport for time crunched athletes.
It might be cool to have 3 kids work 60 hours and train for an ironman and train the 1 hour you have time but unless you have super talent, its in my mind a bit silly to bang your head against a wall ( of course some people can train well with 5 hours sleep but most people cant )
i call it more dilusional for 80 % of ahtletes and for the people that wokrs they have usualy been excellent athtletes as kids.
those people i would alwyas tell rahter do one sport , rather than being super medicore at all 3 .
I had a look the other day at the guy that won Naas duathlon last sunday run something like a 4.26 marathon 2010 i think it was so you would hardly say this guy is stagnating when you follow his progress. so n a way the intial statement that after 1-2 years people flatline is not really right
then look at zico rather than complaining he kept trainig year after year and every year he gets a tiny bit better. and while this is quite understadable for runing its not that easy for swimming or running and being stubborn helps
same for bmcs swiming flatlined for many years swimmng and last year made a jump.
one big reason of flatlining is not getting enough rest you can only burn the candle at one end. but if you dont get enough rest you usually have 1-2 good years but then one burnes out, they burn out then motivation suffers and they give in.
I would also try to make sure athletes wait a bit to have those 2 years i have one athlete who i think can be very good in 4 years time this year and next year i certainly dont look for max improvement. I am looking to the the basics right and we usually do every week 1 or 2 technique sessions
with another guy that had flatlined and was very good a few years ago its similar we are taking the run completly apart I am trying to change the swim technique a bit ( iam not sure if that will work as i only see that guy 7 hours every 4 weeks. but again my goal is not max improvement this year, even though the run is starting to improve its more like run to walk before you run.
and thats the thing if you swimm ****ty of course you are going to flatline earlier.
can training make a change the Kilkee course record holder ( gavin n) when he changed coach in 2010 or so suddently improve 40 or so sec in a short time over 10 k and that was after running many years.
so a little brainstorm at the end of the day its a super complex subject and is very individual and sometimes you have to keep going and do the same thing again and it will work and sometimes you have to change.
and i guess the key points
are
talent
rest
get the basics right
hurry slowly ( organic growth rather than using the sledge hammer something I have learned over the years of coaching)
and a good training structure
and running wise I cant think of a bigger one than weight loss ....0 -
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I'd have equal respect for both as you've described two driven individuals but I'd have questions....
Unless I was running my own business or working as a junior doctor, I'd be questioning how a 60 hour work week has become the norm. Fine for short periods but generally productivity starts to slip after 8 hours and you're not going to get the same benefit from a session as someone who's fresh. Similarly, a hard session affects productivity and you begin the following day worse than the previous.
What in the name of God do you need three hours free time a day for!?!? Get back on the bike!
more respect for one doesn't mean little or no respect for the other.
start your day with calls to asia, finish it with calls to the US and time differences make long days a regular happening. add on 2 kids to that and believe me i don't have 3 extra free hours a day after training0 -
I'd have equal respect for both as you've described two driven individuals but I'd have questions....
Unless I was running my own business or working as a junior doctor, I'd be questioning how a 60 hour work week has become the norm. Fine for short periods but generally productivity starts to slip after 8 hours and you're not going to get the same benefit from a session as someone who's fresh. Similarly, a hard session affects productivity and you begin the following day worse than the previous.
What in the name of God do you need three hours free time a day for!?!? Get back on the bike!
50-60 hour weeks are a fact of life in some industries and at some levels. Part of the job. When I was younger I would have thought he same as you.0 -
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