T-shirt in Primark discontinued because of racist 'eeny meeny miny moe' message

FTA69

Stigura wrote: »

Thinly veiled 'I've been to the Orkneys' post .....


I have a Labrador of colour here. Guess what his name is? He doesn't get offended by it.

I grew up knowing my uncle only as " Uncle Nigg ". Thought that was his name. Thought nothing of it. Turns out he used to be in the habit of riding a push bike everywhere with his shirt off. Thus becoming extremely sun tanned .....

When we were kids, we had a record ~ one actually produced especially for children ~ which related the story of " Little Black Sambo ". An African kid who lived in the jungle. So what?

Looking back on my life, I find it hard to fathom how, by todays standards, I'm not a rabid White Supremacist :rolleyes:

You called your dog N*gger? Out of curiosity, in a hypothetical situation, if a black person happened to be visiting your house would you be comfortable explaining to that person your dog's name?

DredFX

ScumLord wrote: »

Discontinued? It's still out there is use, just without the n-word.

Think he's referring to the t-shirt.

Galwayguy35

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

define "a little while". as a child growing up in the 70s the N word wasnt used.

It was where I grew up, we didn't realise what we were saying at the time though.

ScumLord

DredFX wrote: »

Think he's referring to the t-shirt.

It was just pennies that stopped selling it. It's still available on plenty of websites.

One eyed Jack

FTA69 wrote: »

I remember it being on the telly as a child and I was born in 1987. Likewise I never said I was "offended"; this is the problem nowadays, you point out anything you disagree with no matter how stupid or wrong it is and someone gets in a tizzy.

As an ad it was the epitome of casual racism - labelling black people as crows and engaging in lazy tropes and stereotypes to sell a product. Why is that "great"?

Can I ask, what's the difference between casual racism, and racism? Either it's racism, or it's reaching?

There was no labelling black people as crows, and if you were to criticise advertising on the basis of lazy tropes and stereotypes to sell a product, well that's just obvious, it's exactly how advertising works - it relies on lazy tropes and stereotypes to sell products.

ceadaoin.

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah but it was casually racist like. Back then that attitude toward black people was so normalised and culturally acceptable then it wouldn't have raised eyebrows and maybe the person wasn't frothing at the mouth malicious; but using N*gger as a name for a pet is very much racist like; as you said the only cats and dogs that were called it were the black ones.

In America maybe, but I don't think people in Ireland in the very early 20th century had that attitude towards black people. Most of them had probably never met or even seen a black person and that sort of racism just wasn't part of the culture of Ireland in the same way as the US. The term didn't have the same connotations here back then even though its use makes us wince nowadays

FTA69

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Can I ask, what's the difference between casual racism, and racism? Either it's racism, or it's reaching?

There was no labelling black people as crows, and if you were to criticise advertising on the basis of lazy tropes and stereotypes to sell a product, well that's just obvious, it's exactly how advertising works - it relies on lazy tropes and stereotypes to sell products.

Casual racism would be a term used to describe racism that's become normalised and embedded into society to the point many people don't see a problem with it. An example would be Zaph's point earlier on whereupon his aunt thought "n*gger" an acceptable name for a black pet. Like any complex social phenomenon, there are different aspects and degrees of racism.

Regards the Kia Ora ad, they were labelling black people as crows (a bit like in the Dumbo film) and all the crows were basketball players, Mammy washerwomen, jazz musicians and zoot suits etc. It wasn't an accident all the crows had black connotations.

It's basically a softer version of this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_Chicken_Inn

pilly

FTA69 wrote:

You called your dog N*gger? Out of curiosity, in a hypothetical situation, if a black person happened to be visiting your house would you be comfortable explaining to that person your dog's name?

My dad had a friend who was called N*gger all his adult life and his funeral wreath spelt it out. We thought it was mental but they saw nothing wrong with it. Times change.

ceadaoin.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

In America maybe, but I don't think people in Ireland in the very early 20th century had that attitude towards black people. Most of them had probably never met or even seen a black person and that sort of racism just wasn't part of the culture of Ireland in the same way as the US. The term didn't have the same connotations here back then even though its use makes us wince nowadays

Maybe our racism wasn't expressed simply because we had little opportunity here, but when we got to the States, as the Draft Riots showed, the Irish had no love for black people at all.

FTA69

pilly wrote: »

My dad had a friend who was called N*gger all his adult life and his funeral wreath spelt it out. We thought it was mental but they saw nothing wrong with it. Times change.

My uncle's best friend in school was called the same (mid 1980s) and he got the nickname because a teacher said he "walked like a n*gger". When my uncle had a brain haemorrhage in 1987 in London he was totally incapacitated and delirious and kept shouting for his friend at the top of his voice - the only problem being all the nurses were black Jamaican women.

Apparently my grandmother then tried to mitigate this by explaining how his friend was called N*gger and how he got the name. Pure fun and games no doubt.

FTA69

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe our racism wasn't expressed simply because we had little opportunity here, but when we got to the States, as the Draft Riots showed, the Irish had no love for black people at all.

People in Ireland would have known full well what the term means, it wasn't simply another innocuous shade of brown.

davidwalsh12

DredFX wrote: »

Now this rubs me the wrong way:

BBC

But now there's a backlash on social media, with some complaining it's an example of customers being "over-sensitive".
The T-shirt in question is licensed merchandise from The Walking Dead.
It features the rhyme "eeny meeny miny moe", which has a racist origin.

T-shirt

The tune has typically been used by children as a counting rhyme and some early versions of it included references to offensive terms for black people.
More related stories

Along with the words, the T-shirt also features an image of a baseball bat and barbed wire.

This image relates directly to the practice of assaulting black people in America - Ian Lucraft, Primark customer

The rhyme features in a scene in The Walking Dead when one character is deciding which person in a group they are going to kill.
"The T-shirt in question is licensed merchandise for the US television series, The Walking Dead, and the quote and image are taken directly from the show," Primark said in a statement.
"Any offence caused by its design was wholly unintentional and Primark sincerely apologises for this.
"Primark has removed the product from sale."

Customer Ian Lucraft, who complained about the top to Primark, and his wife Gwen had been in a Sheffield branch of the store when they spotted the item of clothing.
"We were shocked when we came face to face with a new T-shirt with a racially explicit graphic and text," he told The Sheffield Star.
"It was fantastically offensive and I can only assume that no-one in the process of ordering it knew what they were doing, or were aware of its subliminal messages.
"The graphic has a large American baseball bat, wrapped round with barbed wire, and covered with blood.
"This image relates directly to the practice of assaulting black people in America.
"It is directly threatening of a racist assault, and if I were black and were faced by a wearer I would know just where I stood."

So, a man who isn't even black finds a tacky t-shirt featuring a children's rhyme fantastically offensive. (Lovely choice of adverb there.)

I think he's right, because the fact that it is now commonly used by kids to choose between the last two players for a football match doesn't overturn its previous usage as a racial slur well over a century ago.

Ugh. Your thoughts?

PC gone mad. I have several coloured friends and they had a good laugh at this story. Negan does not even say the racist version of it in the show.  Link here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ7BoKzVqZM

davidwalsh12

No one is born a racist you have to learn to be one. Anything you learn you can unlearn.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIi_sUEpQOc

ScumLord

FTA69 wrote: »

People in Ireland would have known full well what the term means, it wasn't simply another innocuous shade of brown.

The word has been around for an awful long time and I don't think it's always been derogatory. So I don't think it's fair to say that in the past people always used it as a slur rather than just a description. Especially in countries that didn't have a black population.

The Specialist

What a pretentious little prick to complain about a tshirt, a know it all that clearly knows **** all.

KingBrian2

ScumLord wrote: »

Discontinued? It's still out there is use, just without the n-word.

If it is the T-Shirt or the song it should be discontinued. That rhyme is offensive and if someone wants to make a profit out of insulting another race than remove it. We see people going to trial for less than this. That rhyme is racist no idea it is still used and those people who continue to sing it are a shower the whole lot of them for singing an ignorant and pathetic rhyme.

ScumLord

KingBrian2 wrote: »

If it is the T-Shirt or the song it should be discontinued. That rhyme is offensive and if someone wants to make a profit out of insulting another race than remove it. We see people going to trial for less than this. That rhyme is racist no idea it is still used and those people who continue to sing it are a shower the whole lot of them for singing an ignorant and pathetic rhyme.

It was racist, but it's one of those tunes that once it gets in your head it's never going to leave. I suppose if we keep singing it with tiger the PITA will be giving out next.

The t-shirt wasn't racist, at all.

The Specialist

KingBrian2 wrote: »

If it is the T-Shirt or the song it should be discontinued. That rhyme is offensive and if someone wants to make a profit out of insulting another race than remove it. We see people going to trial for less than this. That rhyme is racist no idea it is still used and those people who continue to sing it are a shower the whole lot of them for singing an ignorant and pathetic rhyme.

How did the world ever survive this long without perpetually offended snowflakes to guide it?

Grandeeod

whisky_galore wrote: »

We never saw a black person in rural Ireland in the 1980's...we thought they only existed on tv...Mr T...Benson...Axel Foley...etc...

Yep black people were few and far between in Ireland back in the 70s and 80s. I distinctly remember meeting a little black boy of a similar age on a bench in a Dublin shopping centre in the 70s. My mother constantly reminds me of what I asked him - "Do you know Tarzan?" Purely innocent mind you. That was my only association with black people - feckin Tarzan films. Pure innocence. As someone else said the word in the rhyme sounded more like Knicker and we had absolutely no clue as to its meaning.

In relation to the Primark story, its a pretty pitiful complaint, considering the context and fact that this part of the rhyme without any reference to the N word has been used over and over in literature and film.

ceadaoin.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

If it is the T-Shirt or the song it should be discontinued. That rhyme is offensive and if someone wants to make a profit out of insulting another race than remove it. We see people going to trial for less than this. That rhyme is racist no idea it is still used and those people who continue to sing it are a shower the whole lot of them for singing an ignorant and pathetic rhyme.

Kids everywhere still use the rhyme.."eeny meeny miney mo, catch a tiger by the toe. " Send them all to trial! This is the version Negan used in the walking dead. I don't know if anyone complained about that scene being racist but if they didn't, then whats different about the shirt that is referencing that scene?

Samaris

I'd assume that the guy that complained didn't watch the show and so didn't get what it was actually referring to. If I saw that image (not being a follower of WD), I'd be a bit taken aback too. I probably wouldn't take the racist translation (while I know the origins, it's been "tiger" for a long time now), but I can see where he got it from.

Misunderstanding. I don't think he deserves to be slammed for it.

Winterlong

The n version of eeny miney mo is only one version of that song, and probably not the original. But sure lets not allow that to stop the delicates from getting offended on behalf of others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eeny,_meeny,_miny,_moe

Samaris

Look at it from his point of view. If you saw a tshirt being sold in Penneys that you honestly thought (say you don't watch Walking Dead) was suggesting beating up black people with barbed wire wrapped around a baseball bat, would you be horrified, or would you think that anyone who thought it was a tad off unreasonably delicate?

It's one thing when you KNOW the context, but take it for a moment that you didn't? You'd think that was totally normal?

He was wrong, yeah, but if it was an honest mistranslation of what was going on, I don't think it was unreasonably delicate.

ceadaoin.

Samaris wrote: »

Look at it from his point of view. If you saw a tshirt being sold in Penneys that you honestly thought (say you don't watch Walking Dead) was suggesting beating up black people with barbed wire wrapped around a baseball bat, would you be horrified, or would you think that anyone who thought it was a tad off unreasonably delicate?

It's one thing when you KNOW the context, but take it for a moment that you didn't? You'd think that was totally normal?

He was wrong, yeah, but if it was an honest mistranslation of what was going on, I don't think it was unreasonably delicate.

In fairness, there is a big walking dead label on the thing. Surely, any reasonable person would see that and assume it is a reference to something in that show which they don't get rather than immediately jump to the conclusion that it's about beating up black people?

Winterlong

Thats a fair point Samaris. It just feels like some people look for things to be offended by and make no effort to understand the context before complaining.

Samaris

ceadaoin. wrote: »

In fairness, there is a big walking dead label on the thing. Surely, any reasonable person would see that and assume it is a reference to something in that show which they don't get rather than immediately jump to the conclusion that it's about beating up black people?

Ah, yes, well, the big Walking Dead label should be a bit of a giveaway

Hande hoche!

Would probably interrupt it as some pop culture reference, in such a scenario. Similar to myself not understanding what half the shirts on Qwertee are alluding to. Wouldn't jump to some racial violence meaning, unless I was in a KKK gift shop.

Stigura

FTA69 wrote: »

You called your dog N*gger? Out of curiosity, in a hypothetical situation, if a black person happened to be visiting your house would you be comfortable explaining to that person your dog's name?

Wouldn't bother me in the least. I have another Dog here I call " Dingo ". I wouldn't feel uncomfortable if Lindy Chamberlain visited me either. He looks like a dingo. Other Dog's black as the ace of spades.

Wee! I'd never seen that before! Maybe I should have called him " Sam "?

lazybones32

Samaris wrote: »

Look at it from his point of view. If you saw a tshirt being sold in Penneys that you honestly thought (say you don't watch Walking Dead) was suggesting beating up black people with barbed wire wrapped around a baseball bat, would you be horrified, or would you think that anyone who thought it was a tad off unreasonably delicate?

It's one thing when you KNOW the context, but take it for a moment that you didn't? You'd think that was totally normal?

He was wrong, yeah, but if it was an honest mistranslation of what was going on, I don't think it was unreasonably delicate.

Personally, I'd do a little bit of research or ask a few questions before going on a crusade. But then again, I'm not a hypersensitive retard.

One eyed Jack

davidwalsh12 wrote: »

No one is born a racist you have to learn to be one. Anything you learn you can unlearn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIi_sUEpQOc

No, you can't un learn something you have learned. You can only learn something else.


ps: Plenty of people are born racist, and through experience often learn that there's no need to be racist. That's not "unlearning" anything, it's learning something new.

FTA69

Stigura wrote: »

Wouldn't bother me in the least. I have another Dog here I call " Dingo ". I wouldn't feel uncomfortable if Lindy Chamberlain visited me either. He looks like a dingo. Other Dog's black as the ace of spades.

Wee! I'd never seen that before! Maybe I should have called him " Sam "?

So one of your dogs looks like a dingo and the other looks like a n*gger is it? That makes loads of sense.

Out of curiosity if you did introduce N*gger the dog to a black person how do you think that person would view your choice of name?

bodice ripper

Zaph wrote:

The most disappointing of all the ice creams. Just a plain bar of vanilla on a stick, wtf was the point of that?

Some of us are really, really dull.

Stigura

FTA69 wrote: »

So one of your dogs looks like a dingo and the other looks like a n*gger is it? That makes loads of sense.

Out of curiosity if you did introduce N*gger the dog to a black person how do you think that person would view your choice of name?

One of my Dogs looks like a Dingo. The other is pot black. I can't see any lack of sense in it. It's just how they are.

How might a black person view my Dogs name? I really wouldn't know. Guess it'd depend on whether they'd ever heard of Guy Gibson. Or Kiwi polish.

All this, of course, seems to have the underlying implication that I'd give a f**k. Which I wouldn't

CFlat

I went to school in a town in the midlands back in the 80s and there was a lad who went out with a friend of mine and his nickname was n*gger. You'd be walking down the street and someone would shout out, HEY N*IGGER, what you doing later on, or whatever. True story. Kinda of a mad now when I think about it. I don't remember anybody ever commenting negatively about the name.

He was white BTW. Amazing the things that we wouldn't pass heed on years ago and now, well god knows what could happen you now.

Orion

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I grew up in the 70s and it was.
Depends on where you were raised I guess, different places sang it... differently.

+1

I have a piano book of American folk songs that I had in the 70s. I dug it out for my daughter when she started learning piano and flicked through it. One song was called "10 little n**g*rs"!

davidwalsh12

biko wrote: »

So, it's Negan in Walking Dead that is the racist now?
I knew it when he killed

Glenn!

In the comic negan

is still alive to date. He does not get killed. Instead rick cuts his throat then has him fixed up then he throws him in jail. Later negan is set free by carl or whatever you call him and he joins a  group  called "The Whispers". A group that wears the skin of walkers to blend in to the walker infested world. They use hoards of zombies to attack communities. There leader is a women called Alpha.

KingBrian2

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Kids everywhere still use the rhyme.."eeny meeny miney mo, catch a tiger by the toe. " Send them all to trial! This is the version Negan used in the walking dead. I don't know if anyone complained about that scene being racist but if they didn't, then whats different about the shirt that is referencing that scene?

Kids are ignorant of the outside world for the most part. For them it is harmless the guys at primark know better or they should do imagine if they had printed a T'Shirt with Rap words on it. They would be crucified why because rappers use expletives in their songs. I see racial component in this if a black guy has an offensive rhyme the song must be banned or censored a large supermarket starts selling offensive T-Shirt were all okay with that.

davidwalsh12

One eyed Jack wrote: »

davidwalsh12 wrote: »

No one is born a racist you have to learn to be one. Anything you learn you can unlearn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIi_sUEpQOc

No, you can't un learn something you have learned. You can only learn something else.


ps: Plenty of people are born racist, and through experience often learn that there's no need to be racist. That's not "unlearning" anything, it's learning something new.

Yes you can unlearn thats part of learning

davidwalsh12

One eyed Jack wrote: »

davidwalsh12 wrote: »

No one is born a racist you have to learn to be one. Anything you learn you can unlearn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIi_sUEpQOc

No, you can't un learn something you have learned. You can only learn something else.


ps: Plenty of people are born racist, and through experience often learn that there's no need to be racist. That's not "unlearning" anything, it's learning something new.

Nonsense, You can not be born a racist you have to learn to be one.

One eyed Jack

davidwalsh12 wrote: »

Yes you can unlearn thats part of learning

Stop bastardising the english language. You'll never learn anything that way.

One eyed Jack

davidwalsh12 wrote: »

Nonsense, You can not be born a racist you have to learn to be one.

Can you learn to be gay too, or is that something that can be unlearned?

ceadaoin.

davidwalsh12 wrote: »

In the comic negan.

Thanks for those incredible spoilers there

ceadaoin.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Kids are ignorant of the outside world for the most part. For them it is harmless the guys at primark know better or they should do imagine if they had printed a T'Shirt with Rap words on it. They would be crucified why because rappers use expletives in their songs. I see racial component in this if a black guy has an offensive rhyme the song must be banned or censored a large supermarket starts selling offensive T-Shirt were all okay with that.

The scene that the t-shirt references doesn't use any expletives. Negan says "tiger" and it has nothing to do with racially motivated violence. This episode aired last year and as far as I'm aware received no complaints. That's why the complaint now is ridiculous IMO. Even worse that this is a white guy in Sheffield getting offended on behalf of black people in America

davidwalsh12

One eyed Jack wrote: »

davidwalsh12 wrote: »

Nonsense, You can not be born a racist you have to learn to be one.

Can you learn to be gay too, or is that something that can be unlearned?

You tell me dickens . Loved Oliver twist by the way.

davidwalsh12

ceadaoin. wrote: »

davidwalsh12 wrote: »

In the comic negan is.

Thanks for those incredible spoilers there

You are very welcome.

davidwalsh12

ceadaoin. wrote: »

davidwalsh12 wrote: »

In the comic negan is .

Thanks for those incredible spoilers there

You are very welcome.

davidwalsh12

davidwalsh12 wrote: »

In the comic negan

Well, I guess you just saved me enduring the rest of the season now that it's basically jumped the shark.

I don't know whether to thank you or curse you.

KingBrian2

ceadaoin. wrote: »

The scene that the t-shirt references doesn't use any expletives. Negan says "tiger" and it has nothing to do with racially motivated violence. This episode aired last year and as far as I'm aware received no complaints. That's why the complaint now is ridiculous IMO. Even worse that this is a white guy in Sheffield getting offended on behalf of black people in America

Eeeny meeny miny moe is a well known rhyme and Primark went with it. Did no one bother high up in the company not to see that this would be offensive. Had it not been picked up by this guy they could have had an outcry if someone in America discovered the incident. The original song was revised to say tiger but the rhyme is still racist. Any other lyric would be fine plenty of other rhymes, limericks and other humours statements to print. No reason to print this rhyme onto a shirt. If it had a rhyme from an American rapper would people be saying it is harmless.

FTA69

Stigura wrote: »

One of my Dogs looks like a Dingo. The other is pot black. I can't see any lack of sense in it. It's just how they are.

How might a black person view my Dogs name? I really wouldn't know. Guess it'd depend on whether they'd ever heard of Guy Gibson. Or Kiwi polish.

All this, of course, seems to have the underlying implication that I'd give a f**k. Which I wouldn't

Right so n*gger is the equivalent to kiwi now is it? N*gger isn't a colour by the way, it refers to people - not dogs or a shade of brown. This is utterly ridiculous like, it's clear you wouldn't care what the implications are behind that word because you're small minded and ignorant to be honest.

Someone earlier on asked what casual racism is, this is a typical example of it really - some eejit who for the life of him can't see anything awry with calling a dog n*gger for the laugh. Or, more likely, is just a plain bigot.

ceadaoin.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Eeeny meeny miny moe is a well known rhyme and Primark went with it. Did no one bother high up in the company not to see that this would be offensive. Had it not been picked up by this guy they could have had an outcry if someone in America discovered the incident. The original song was revised to say tiger but the rhyme is still racist. Any other lyric would be fine plenty of other rhymes, limericks and other humours statements to print. No reason to print this rhyme onto a shirt. If it had a rhyme from an American rapper would people be saying it is harmless.

Millions of people in America watched the tv episode where the character recited this rhyme and there was no outcry. That's because "catch a tiger by the toe" is not racist. Every schoolkid in America says it and I think it's use might even be older than the racist version