Safer cycling, we can make a difference /MPDL thread

Corca Baiscinn

Deleted User wrote: »

Small piece in our local paper today in the courts news (Drogheda Independent page 19) Driver fined €75 in court for "driving without reasonable consideration"

They cut in front of a cyclist mid way through a round about causing them to wobble it says. Doesn't mention how it was detected/reported or if the cyclist had camera. Still though would give me hope if I ever have to report something at the local station.

An rud is annamh is iontach surely; prosecuting garda shold be promoted and somebody in Drogheda buy that judge a pint!

Rechuchote

Macy0161 wrote: »

Shane Ross was hi fiving the riders off at the Orwell Randonee, but he didn't respond to "when is the law coming into place" from one of the lads... Garda dragging their heels on the equipment needed to enforce - must be waiting on an action cam from Ali...

The minimum passing distance law (enforced successfully in 42 jurisdictions) has been axed due to being "unenforceable". The gardaí don't want to enforce it.

andy69

Rechuchote wrote: »

The minimum passing distance law (enforced successfully in 42 jurisdictions) has been axed due to being "unenforceable". The gardaí don't want to enforce it.

Yeah think I saw that on my Twitter feed or something - so that's it...dead in the water?
Wonder is there something wrong with our laws/legal system that WE can't manage to implement it, but as ye said 42 other jurisdictions somehow magically have the intelligence/systems/willpower or whatever to be able to - or their laws are more 'simple' and not open that crap that our barristers seem so great at wiggling out of charges etc

magicbastarder

i would be very interested to hear how it's implemented in other jurisdictions - i've seen stories of police in other countries proactively going out with what i assume is laser measuring equipment attached to bikes and stopping motorists who pass too close. would be very interested to know if this is the only way they can enforce a specific distance law, whether the law can be applied without this equipment.

Rechuchote

A few people get caught, other people read about it, behaviour is modified.

Most drivers don't carve up cyclists, it's probably a few - if police target those few, they're less likely to influence others to think it's ok.

Remember the brief happy months after the mobile phone in cars ban, when guards were actually implementing the law? Phones disappeared from cars. Then the guards stopped, and the phones reappeared.

Corca Baiscinn

magicbastarder wrote: »

i would be very interested to hear how it's implemented in other jurisdictions - i've seen stories of police in other countries proactively going out with what i assume is laser measuring equipment attached to bikes and stopping motorists who pass too close. would be very interested to know if this is the only way they can enforce a specific distance law, whether the law can be applied without this equipment.

As far as I rem from @Safe cycling Éire's blog about enforcement it's done by laser sensor in some US states but in other places by accepting camera footage or by observation, eg if a policeman knows the wdth of the road, width of a car and observes that the overtaker didn't cross the central median then by definition he/she didn't allow 1.5 m. Maybe too some places have a less hostile attitude to people cycling so it's not such a issue. Our garda dont seem very keen on acceptig camera footage.

@Andy69 Looks like this attempt is "dead in the water" as you say but hopefully a version like that used by WMP will replace it. DTTAS seem to be talking about replacing a mpd law with one re dangerous overtaking of a cyclist so it wouldn't have to specify an exact distance. Whatever re our laws being too "simple" our legal system seems to have as many holes as a sieve, remember the guy who got off a d/d charge because the summons wasn't issued in Irish and all the people whose post with summonses for road traffic offences never arrive?. What annoys me is that if SR had accepted Robert Troy's MPDL amendment to Road Traffic Bill in Feb (itself based on Ciaran Cannon's earlier Private Members Bill) the probless might have come to light earlier as the Bill went through the various Dail readings. Instead he took a "I'll do it my way" line and here we are

magicbastarder

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Our garda dont seem very keen on acceptig camera footage.

i've seen comments along the lines of 'gardai not wanting to respond to reports based on camera footage', but i think whatever that was reporting on, it was that gardai could not pursue an offence under the proposed law based on camera footage, as it is not a direct measurement of the berth a car gives.

some comments i've seen seemed to interpret it as 'gardai generally are disinterested in pursuing complaints caught on camera'.

AndrewJRenko

magicbastarder wrote: »

some comments i've seen seemed to interpret it as 'gardai generally are disinterested in pursuing complaints caught on camera'.

There is a general disinterest from Gardai in pursuing complaints caught on camera in my experience. Compare this to the UK forces who have set up a special online portal to allow people to submit footage directly to them.

andy69

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There is a general disinterest from Gardai in pursuing complaints caught on camera in my experience. Compare this to the UK forces who have set up a special online portal to allow people to submit footage directly to them.

...and yet they're quick enough to appeal on the news for Dashcam footage whenever one of the crime gangs have a shooting in public! So they CAN work with footage, but as ye say, doesn't seem to be much interest. Probably as much to do with being understaffed/under-resourced as anything else I'd say

andy69

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

...@Andy69...Whatever re our laws being too "simple" our legal system seems to have as many holes as a sieve, remember the guy who got off a d/d charge because the summons wasn't issued in Irish and all the people whose post with summonses for road traffic offences never arrive?...

Sorry for the confusion, I was actually making the same point (that *other* laws might be more simple/straightforward, but that ours with all the loopholes that barristers use to get perp's off...)

An initiative in New Zealand to put bus drivers on bikes to teach them about road safety

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a22636802/bus-drivers-ride-bikes-to-learn-cycling-safety/

Muahahaha

Proper road rage incident in London, Audi driver threatens to run cyclists over

A "reckless" driver is being hunted by police after he drove "at speed" at a cyclist during a row in London.

Footage on social media shows how cyclist Dave Clifton was almost hit by the black Audi A3 on a road in Clapham.

The Met Police has appealed to find the "dangerous" driver, who sped away in reverse from an officer during the row, at about 08:00 BST last Wednesday.

"Luckily no-one was seriously injured or even killed by this reckless driver," Det Con James Preston said.

The row began at traffic lights close to Clapham North Station, when the driver stopped and started yelling.

Mr Clifton said the driver appeared to be "picking on everybody" in the "bizarre" altercation
After driving off he swerved into a bus lane, where he nearly hit IT consultant Mr Clifton, 50, before stopping at another set of lights and throwing debris out of the car window at him.

"When the lights turned green, the driver turned his car towards the victim and drove at him at speed before changing direction," a police spokesman said.

Seconds later the Audi was driven onto a side street where a witness told the force he almost hit another cyclist.

The driver then mounted the pavement where a group of cyclists had gathered and he drove at them, apparently telling them "it's a stolen car".

Follow link for the video
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-45079207

Rechuchote

Muahahaha wrote: »

'Seconds later the Audi was driven…'

Audi…

greenspurs

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/fianna-fail-says-shane-ross-lacks-the-will-to-implement-cycling-legislation-862151.html

Bad news, hardly unexpected though ?:rolleyes:

07Lapierre

I doubt FF would do any better to be honest!

Harrybelafonte

I despise Ross, but in fairness, was he not told that it could not legally be implemented?

benneca1

Lot of unimplementable laws point is not to prosecute it is to encourage awareness. Driving without due care and attention in pretty arbitrary but is enforced and used. Comes down to a lack of political will for whatever reason. If however it were modified to only apply in 30 zones and 80 Km zones might have as much an effect and do more good.

magicbastarder

MPD threads merged

AndrewJRenko

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I despise Ross, but in fairness, was he not told that it could not legally be implemented?

Dunno, but if that is the case, shouldn't he have checked that out BEFORE he said that "minimum passing distance law would be introduced as an overtaking offence through secondary legislation in a matter of weeks."

Rechuchote

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I despise Ross, but in fairness, was he not told that it could not legally be implemented?

They somehow manage to implement minimum passing distance in 42 jurisdictions. Are the Gardaí especially fragile?

magicbastarder

Again, are those distance specific laws actively or passively enforced? As in, are they enforced by plain clothes officers on bikes, or can a video be used if submitted by a member of the public? I've seen the former, but no evidence of the latter.

If a generic 'unsafe pass' law was implemented instead, it would be easier to prosecute based on a video submission, surely.

ED E

Unsafe passing is covered under due care, just missing the willingness to enforce any traffic law less than drink/tax.

Corca Baiscinn

magicbastarder wrote: »

Again, are those distance specific laws actively or passively enforced? As in, are they enforced by plain clothes officers on bikes, or can a video be used if submitted by a member of the public? I've seen the former, but no evidence of the latter.

If a generic 'unsafe pass' law was implemented instead, it would be easier to prosecute based on a video submission, surely.

Think enforcement varies hugely, don't know re submitting camera evidence in the 47 jurisdictions, but I think you're making an important point re an "unsafe pass" law. Seems to be what DTTAS is now proposing, one specific to overtaking a bicycle but not specifying any definite distance. However, if it does come to pass it will be hopeless unless camera evidence can be submitted easily, like WMP allow and encourage. . If we're reliant on a garda having to observe the close pass it will be hopeless. People on these threads have described ahaving to jump through hoops to have video evidence submitted and considered so there would have to be both funding and a culture change in the Garda for it to happen

sy_flembeck

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Think enforcement varies hugely, don't know re submitting camera evidence in the 47 jurisdictions, but I think you're making an important point re an "unsafe pass" law. Seems to be what DTTAS is now proposing, one specific to overtaking a bicycle but not specifying any definite distance. However, if it does come to pass it will be hopeless unless camera evidence can be submitted easily, like WMP allow and encourage. . If we're reliant on a garda having to observe the close pass it will be hopeless. People on these threads have described ahaving to jump through hoops to have video evidence submitted and considered so there would have to be both funding and a culture change in the Garda for it to happen

I have rung Traffic Watch for two separate complaints (both in same area) and provided video evidence both times and not only was it accepted each time it was encouraged by the Gardai in question. Perhaps it's a case of who you happen to get to deal with your complaint. As it happend the two Guards I got were very proactive.

AndrewJRenko

magicbastarder wrote: »

Again, are those distance specific laws actively or passively enforced? As in, are they enforced by plain clothes officers on bikes, or can a video be used if submitted by a member of the public? I've seen the former, but no evidence of the latter.

If a generic 'unsafe pass' law was implemented instead, it would be easier to prosecute based on a video submission, surely.

Several of the UK police forces have a portal to allow people to submit video clips of traffic offences. It's not particularly targeted at or restricted to close passing.

Wishbone Ash

benneca1 wrote: »

Lot of unimplementable laws point is not to prosecute it is to encourage awareness. Driving without due care and attention in pretty arbitrary but is enforced and used....

Anytime I read of anyone being prosecuted for 'driving without due care and attention', it always seems to be when the offence has been witnessed by a Garda. I'm sure, if a Garda witnessed a close pass, they would be no problem but unfortunately, they don't witness 99.99% of them.

buffalo

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/a-two-way-street-for-passing-bicycles-1.3599603

I assume that if the Minister for Transport is going to try to introduce a minimum passing distance that it will apply both ways and cyclists will not be able to overtake /pass out a car without staying clear by the minimum distance.

There is no facepalm big enough.

magicbastarder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Several of the UK police forces have a portal to allow people to submit video clips of traffic offences. It's not particularly targeted at or restricted to close passing.

yes, but this is the key question; is a prosecution in any of these 47 jurisdictions allowed - where the prosecution is based on passing within a specific distance - without a direct measurement of that distance?
or was it passed to enable proactive police campaigns?

Rechuchote

Letters like this are great - they provide fuel for us in demanding a safe, separated, protected cycling network (which of course would get more people cycling too).

magicbastarder

buffalo wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/a-two-way-street-for-passing-bicycles-1.3599603



There is no facepalm big enough.

that link led me to this letter, which is a corker. nothing to do with cycling, though.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/time-to-switch-to-the-left-1.3599595