Safer cycling, we can make a difference /MPDL thread

CramCycle

There is a kid who goes down the N11 with his Dad, who cannot be much more than 6, and I'll be damned but he is hard to keep up with.

Macy0161

TheChizler wrote: »

Obviously it's a rule of thumb for the average adult cyclist, not children. It's easy to imagine the height of an adult cyclist. You'd apply that when overtaking a child, people are stupid but not that stupid.

Stupid enough they can't get their head around 1.5m apparently...

Corca Baiscinn

missing information

MediaMan wrote: »

I've been thinking that perhaps the focus on the 1.5 metre aspect of this proposal is a bad idea. This is because it puts the topic on the table in a way that seems unworkable to most people. If instead the initial focus was on safe overtaking of cyclists, then people might be able to find some common ground in principle before arguing the detail.

http://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/9/34410/06th_March_2017_-_High_Noon_Part_1/

But Media Man you're the OP! The ROTR page 53 I think does focus on the safe overtaking of cyclists and the RSA has had an extensive advertising campaign about it but still the close and punishment pass stories abound. Listen to the Newstalk interview above by George Hooke of all people with an Australian Researcher in Road Safety about the Queensland experience with MPDL. She says if I recall correctly that enforcement isn't an issue, that the mere fact of there being a specific offence is enough to ensure compliance. She didn't disagree when Hookie asked if the effect was more due to psychology than law. she said that the Queensland trial of 1.5 was made permanent, that other States have either introdued a MPDL or are trialling it

Obviously proof becomes an issue in the event of a collision but once there is a specific offence it will be up to the driver to show that he was allowing a safe overtaking distance, eg by claiming that half his car width was over the broken line

Corca Baiscinn

I haven't figured out how to post images yet but there are lots online of MPD signage from other countries where a MPDL is in place so if it's a normal part of road safety in other countries there is no reason except our sense of exceptionalism why it shouldn't work here.

Pinch Flat

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

I haven't figured out how to post images yet but there are lots online of MPD signage from other countries where a MPDL is in place so if it's a normal part of road safety in other countries there is no reason except our sense of exceptionalism why it shouldn't work here.

In fairness, cycling in countries where this signage is in existence is a different experience to Ireland. The "must get past as all costs" gene is not as prevelant. These countries are also more socially mature with a more developed of respect and personal responsibility. In my own experience anyway.

Deep Thought

Pinch Flat wrote: »

In fairness, cycling in countries where this signage is in existence is a different experience to Ireland. The "must get past as all costs" gene is not as prevelant. These countries are also more socially mature with a more developed of respect and personal responsibility. In my own experience anyway.

Fully agree with ya, was driving to work today..narrow road, overtaking cyclist would have meant crossing the white line into oncoming traffic, decided to take my time...car behind beeping the crap outta me...Me..I slammed on the brakes, she backed off and never came near again

Corca Baiscinn

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2017/mar/09/too-close-campaign-cyclists-safe-driver-overtaking-police

This is about approach being adopted in UK. It says Cycling UK plan to crowd-fund to bulk-buy the £800 mats used by West Midlands Police to teach re MPD for other police forces. It says because only 2% of population cycles most drivers have no idea what a safe passing distance is, a point that has been made by posters here too

Kaisr Sose

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The Taxi drivers vehemently oppose the minimum passing distance proposal! (well i'm so surprised!!)


So they won't be able to cut past cyclists with a wing mirrors length at high speed in the bus lane whilst beeping the horn at the same time now eh?

taxi-fares-set-to-increase-if-new-law-making-it-an-offence-for-drivers-to-pass-close-to-a-cyclist-are-brought-in/

I really find this claim offensive. No vehicle/motorist whether private or public has the right to pass somebody at close distance, now or in the future. Its just apalling that some taxi driver feel they can do this when rushing to pick up a fare. Time is precious, life is cheap. I had a taxi deliberately drive at me and it's going to court...seriously, what right has any motorist got use their vehicle as a weapon, but especially one that is operated as a public service vehicle.

magicbastarder

Deep Thought wrote: »

Me..I slammed on the brakes, she backed off and never came near again

brake testing someone is an idiotic thing to do.

Pinch Flat

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I really find this claim offensive. No vehicle/motorist whether private or public has the right to pass somebody at close distance, now or in the future. Its just apalling that some taxi driver feel they can do this when rushing to pick up a fare. Time is precious, life is cheap. I had a taxi deliberately drive at me and it's going to court...seriously, what right has any motorist got use their vehicle as a weapon, but especially one that is operated as a public service vehicle.

Yeah same here. Last week, I had some numb nuts undertake me, then cut in front of me, almost taking me off the bike. All the time while on a mobile phone. When I pointed this out to him a the lights, his reaction was "fcuk off you w@nker". Obviously after disagreeing, we went our separate ways. Some utter scumbags in taxis.

Chuchote

Macy0161 wrote: »

Stupid enough they can't get their head around 1.5m apparently...

If they want to know how much 1.5m is, they should get a five-foot-tall woman to stand and hold her arms outstretched. From fingertip to opposite fingertip, that's 1.5m.

RobertFoster

Chuchote wrote: »

If they want to know how much 1.5m is, they should get a five-foot-tall woman to stand and hold her arms outstretched. From fingertip to opposite fingertip, that's 1.5m.

Any volunteers?

Chuchote

RobertFoster wrote: »

Any volunteers?

Sure-o!

Cantona's Collars

Big shout out to the lads from SCC this morning who all went single file to allow cars to pass going through Camolin.The biggest offenders of not moving in a bit are casual cyclists. I posted before of one guy nearly meeting his maker in front of me on the N11 just outside Enniscorthy as he hugged the lines along the hard shoulder and his wheel caught a damaged cats eye and threw him out into the road as we passed him.

CramCycle

Alot of cyclists do not move in intentionally because in our assessment, an overtake would put us in danger. Moving in or going to single file can often be mistaken for someone waving you through and lead to dangerous overtakes. Some don't do it for the simple reason, it is not their place to imply to you whether it is safe or not, that is for the overtaking vehicle to assess, if they cannot then they should not overtake.

if you listen to club riders on a spin, they will always call out when traffic is coming up from behind so that they can be as accommodating as possible without risking themselves. In a car, this is often missed and mistaken for a crowd of cyclists doing nothing and ignoring the situation. I have in all my years with several different clubs, never been on a spin where this has not happened.

Macy0161

zerks wrote: »

Big shout out to the lads from SCC this morning who all went single file to allow cars to pass going through Camolin.The biggest offenders of not moving in a bit are casual cyclists. I posted before of one guy nearly meeting his maker in front of me on the N11 just outside Enniscorthy as he hugged the lines along the hard shoulder and his wheel caught a damaged cats eye and threw him out into the road as we passed him.

Actually proving the point of why you shouldn't cycle right in at the kerb. Hard shoulders are normally in a poor condition and full of debris.

Cantona's Collars

Macy0161 wrote: »

Actually proving the point of why you shouldn't cycle right in at the kerb. Hard shoulders are normally in a poor condition and full of debris.

The hard shoulder along there is in great nick,I cycle along it as do hundreds more along with runners who use it,he was just being an idiot keeping as far out as he dared and almost paid for it big time.

AndrewJRenko

zerks wrote: »

along with runners who use it

So hard to think of any reason why cyclists wouldn't use it...

Cantona's Collars

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So hard to think of any reason why cyclists wouldn't use it...

It's an odd one but there's never a problem and they tend to use it at different times, speak to any cyclist who travels between Enniscorthy and Wexford and you'll find they have zero problems with the hard shoulder. Runners who use it are alone or there are 2 per group at most, usually marathon runners building up the miles while training,quite easy to pass when on a bike,none of the competition for space you see in Dublin,Cork etc.

doozerie

zerks wrote: »

The hard shoulder along there is in great nick,I cycle along it as do hundreds more along with runners who use it, he was just being an idiot keeping as far out as he dared and almost paid for it big time.

There are a lot of assumptions built into what you say there. There are many hard shoulders that I won't use because: they turn into exit or left-turning roads and at those points you now have to take the lane when motorists least expect and they might not be willing to make space for you; the hard shoulder just stops, leaving you in that same situation of having to move into the lane; they are in terrible condition; Irish people think that driving in the hard shoulder is a kindness to people who want to drive faster than them so they just motor along in the hard shoulder to be "nice"; I want the hard shoulder to be a space I can bail into if someone behind decides that driving over me is preferable to waiting for an opportunity to overtake safely; etc., etc.

Where I don't already know the road I'm wary of the hard shoulder for the same reasons. If you were behind me and assumed I was choosing to be an idiot, you'd be wrong - there are exceptions, but I would bet that the number of people who take a road position in such a situation just to be belligerent are in the (tiny) minority, the vast majority are doing what they think is safest for them with the least impact on other traffic.

AndrewJRenko

zerks wrote: »

speak to any cyclist who travels between Enniscorthy and Wexford and you'll find they have zero problems with the hard shoulder.

zerks wrote: »

I posted before of one guy nearly meeting his maker in front of me on the N11 just outside Enniscorthy as he hugged the lines along the hard shoulder and his wheel caught a damaged cats eye and threw him out into the road as we passed him.

Has your account been hacked? It seems that two different people are posting contradictory opinions from one account.

doozerie

I was reminded of this initiative recently when I had two close overtakes in a matter of a couple of days.

The first was a motorist who cut a bend in the road by driving through the cycle lane and passing about half a metre from me. He got caught in traffic a littler further, predictably. His initial reaction was denial, followed by "but I didn't actually hit you, did I?", followed eventually by a grudging apology, followed by indignation that I expressed scepticism at the sincerity of his apology given the "conversation" to that point. In short, he saw nothing wrong in what he had done.

The second was a motorist using the bus lane as an undertaking lane. He accelerated past me as he tried to find a gap in traffic to pull into. That was close, I could have touched his car with my elbow. He too got caught in traffic. His reaction was just as dismissive but with added aggression. He flicked me the finger as he laughed. I called the Garda Trafficwatch number (tel: 1890 205805) and reported him. Later the same day I got a call from a local garda who said he'd pursue it and asked me if I wanted to take the guy to court if it came to that. I didn't, I just wanted the driver to be reminded that there are consequence for driving like a sociopath.

I'm not sure that a new law is what is needed to tackle such behaviour. Whatever happens, new law or not, it's worth remembering that there are options available today that you can use, Trafficwatch being one. I haven't always been happy with the outcome from contacting Trafficwatch, but a few times it worked exactly as I would have hoped, so I always consider it worth a try.

Tenzor07

doozerie wrote: »

I was reminded of this initiative recently when I had two close overtakes in a matter of a couple of days.

Only 2 in 2 days... Fairly low innings there!

Macy0161

doozerie wrote: »

I'm not sure that a new law is what is needed to tackle such behaviour. Whatever happens, new law or not, it's worth remembering that there are options available today that you can use, Trafficwatch being one. I haven't always been happy with the outcome from contacting Trafficwatch, but a few times it worked exactly as I would have hoped, so I always consider it worth a try.

Yeah, but would traffic watch have worked just for the close pass? They were bang to rights on the bus lane violation, which would be easier to prove.

My anecdotal continues to be, after the weekend spin, is that I feel like I was given more room/ had less close passes than normal. Punctured on the way to the group spin (so missed it), so no idea whether that was also the case for those buggers insisting on riding two abreast...

ED E

The best thing for passing distance is actually darkness. Light yourself up like a lighthouse and drivers give you a good 2m +. Not quite as effective for the morning commute though.

Leroy42

doozerie wrote: »

I was reminded of this initiative recently when I had two close overtakes in a matter of a couple of days.

The first was a motorist who cut a bend in the road by driving through the cycle lane and passing about half a metre from me. He got caught in traffic a littler further, predictably. His initial reaction was denial, followed by "but I didn't actually hit you, did I?", followed eventually by a grudging apology, followed by indignation that I expressed scepticism at the sincerity of his apology given the "conversation" to that point. In short, he saw nothing wrong in what he had done.

The second was a motorist using the bus lane as an undertaking lane. He accelerated past me as he tried to find a gap in traffic to pull into. That was close, I could have touched his car with my elbow. He too got caught in traffic. His reaction was just as dismissive but with added aggression. He flicked me the finger as he laughed. I called the Garda Trafficwatch number (tel: 1890 205805) and reported him. Later the same day I got a call from a local garda who said he'd pursue it and asked me if I wanted to take the guy to court if it came to that. I didn't, I just wanted the driver to be reminded that there are consequence for driving like a sociopath.

I'm not sure that a new law is what is needed to tackle such behaviour. Whatever happens, new law or not, it's worth remembering that there are options available today that you can use, Trafficwatch being one. I haven't always been happy with the outcome from contacting Trafficwatch, but a few times it worked exactly as I would have hoped, so I always consider it worth a try.

This is the bit that, IMO, a change of law would start to change. Of course he could be dismissive. He had, under the current reg's done nothing 'wrong'. He hadn't touched you or directly caused an accident so you complaining was just that, complaining.

Bring in a law and you then have the law on your side. Will it stop that person from doing the same, probably not, but the vast amount of people will need to consider if they want to possible break the law (and penalty points etc) to squeeze past.

Most people stop at red lights, not because they fear getting caught (for statistically the changes of a cop being there is minimal) but they know if something were to happen they would they held at fault as they broke the law. It will be the same on this.

Will in make a big difference, I doubt it, but if it makes even 1 car give me more room rather than 'going' for a gap that doesn't exist then it is worth it.

I see no negative to a law like this, except for a possible time delay to motorists. But since motorist seem more than content to sit in rush hour traffic, time does not seem to be the deciding factor.

Cantona's Collars

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Has your account been hacked? It seems that two different people are posting contradictory opinions from one account.

What do you mean? He cycled along the cats eyes beside traffic that was moving at 100kph or faster rather than along the part of the hard shoulder that was clear of ANY obstacles and that was utterly stupid. Isn't the first thing you learn when going out into the world self preservation? If a lion is in a cage you stay outside of it,you don't sit on the edge.
If he'd been killed we would have had a thread here mourning his passing but not a word about how his stupidity led to his demise.

Cantona's Collars

Macy0161 wrote: »

Actually proving the point of why you shouldn't cycle right in at the kerb. Hard shoulders are normally in a poor condition and full of debris.

How did that prove the point,he was on the absolute outside edge riding along the broken yellow line as near to traffic as he could be.As I said,I and many people I know cycle along that road and nobody does anything like that,are you justifying his stupidity? "Oh let's blame the state of the road" even through you are unfamiliar with it.
Since when has the mantra parents drummed into kids to "keep in and watch out for cars" turned into "you own the road, ride where you like along it"? It's give and take folks,don't ride out where you might come a cropper just to be the big man and motorists just allow a bit of room and some time to pass.

CramCycle

If you were overtaking properly, how much space did you give him. His own actions aside, is there a reason you did not give him more space. Maybe he had just come out because he could see an issue that you could not (it does happen). I have had plenty of people tell me how great some surfaces are for cycling and they use them all the time, whereas I find them dreadful and cycle out on the road for my own safety. Opinions are subjective, whether the guy was being a d1ck or a big man, I can imagine it was not a personal slight on you and maybe if you take it that way, driving may not be the mode of transport most suited to you.

He was at the yellow line, that is not as near to traffic as he could be, if he wanted that, he would have road on the actual roadway. He rode close to the line, presumably in his mind, the safest place to be.

Cantona's Collars

CramCycle wrote: »

If you were overtaking properly, how much space did you give him. His own actions aside, is there a reason you did not give him more space. Maybe he had just come out because he could see an issue that you could not (it does happen). I have had plenty of people tell me how great some surfaces are for cycling and they use them all the time, whereas I find them dreadful and cycle out on the road for my own safety. Opinions are subjective, whether the guy was being a d1ck or a big man, I can imagine it was not a personal slight on you and maybe if you take it that way, driving may not be the mode of transport most suited to you.

He was at the yellow line, that is not as near to traffic as he could be, if he wanted that, he would have road on the actual roadway. He rode close to the line, presumably in his mind, the safest place to be.

I moved out and luckily I did,he clipped a cats eye and ended up being flung out into the road,had I been in a HGV or even not expecting the worst by seeing where he was riding things could have been very nasty.The 1.5 rule would never have saved him. I had said to myself "what the fook is this fella at cycling along the yellow line"? I kept out as far as I could,it's a wide road.Was I to slam on and have the car behind me smash into me all because one eejit thought it sensible to play Russian roulette with his life? Even if he kept in a foot or so he'd have been grand,he didn't need to hug the kerb or anything just don't put yourself in harms way and then blame somebody else is my point.As I said before,I cycle along there too and the last place I'd be is hugging the yellow line.