Work Chargepoints

isnottheword

Just want to run a quick straw poll of visitors to this forum ref. charging at work.

Would be curious to see how employers are responding to their employees current/future needs in this regard.

Gumbo

We have 5. All free to use at the moment.
We have 3 EV's as group fleet cars that any staff member can book and use for official business.
Then there's 2 staff with EV's, one leaf and one e330.
First cone basis with regards to charger use.
Large public body though.

n97 mini

Needs another option

My employer is in favour but the owner of the office block is dragging their feet.

Or similar, you get the idea.

isnottheword

n97 mini wrote: »

Needs another option

My employer is in favour but the owner of the office block is dragging their feet.

Or similar, you get the idea.

Thanks. Unfortunately, I don't have the permissions to edit the poll. I'll pm our forum mod and ask him to add.

n97 mini

Also curious as to the employer(s) that charge fees, how does that work in practice? If those affected could let us know.

isnottheword

n97 mini wrote: »

Also curious as to the employer(s) that charge fees, how does that work in practice? If those affected could let us know.

That's me :-)

They have left management of same with the original installers of the chargepoint. Deposit paid directly to them via paypal. Charged out quarterly at what they deem to be the going rate (a typical residential rate). However, I could be wrong but I doubt very much that employer is paying residential rates! They use the energy supply equivalent of a small irish town, have their own CHP plant on-site, etc.

I'm going to continue to use public chargers until they go fee based (yeah, some of you will be miffed at that - but my purchase was based on making savings. I've had to put up with a lot of the downside - so I plan on making the most of the upside also. That said, I charge very much at off peak times).

I'm not aware of any other employer that's charging for charging - hence my curiousity and the poll above.

Not sure how the fees will be tracked - as there's no sign right now of an online 'account' that can be logged into. However, this is brand new - I was the first to test it out. I've told work that whilst I'm appreciative of them installing the chargers, I'll continue to use free charging - at times that it suits me - and utilise the convenience of work charging at other times. Only when public system goes fee-based will I use work system 100% all of the time. I had advised them a few months back that the majority of other workplaces which had chargepoints installed were not 'charging' a fee for use of same but they believe that such a concession would stoke up animosity from employees with ICE's (I don't get this rationale).


Before anyone asks - no, I don't expect employers to foot the bill for this indefinitely. However, as early adopters, we should reap some benefits given that we also have to put up with many limitations. Furthermore, I'd like to think that they would charge us out at whatever the rate they pay for the electricity.

homer911

I hear the Central Bank are putting in some charge points in the carpark of their new building - think it was a condition of the planning permission

unkel

The average industrial wage is what, about €35k, so the employee costs the employer about €200 per day. Seems silly to not let them charge for the occasional €5 a day. That's almost as mean as not paying for the coffee / tea / milk in the canteen. I do appreciate charge points cost a bit of money, but surely for a company with 100 staff to initially provide 2 charge point would be a nice goodwill gesture costing just a few grand? Or in a very small business pluggin in your own granny cable would do the trick

My work place has 8 charge points , all free to use !

8 electrics charging at 7 Kw = 56 Kw and probably equivalent to less than the lowest wattage light bulb in comparison to the campus consumption ! :eek:

Wouldn't even register on the leccy bill !

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

I do appreciate charge points cost a bit of money, but surely for a company with 100 staff to initially provide 2 charge point would be a nice goodwill gesture costing just a few grand?

Try 25x that number in this instance. As regards cost of install, for a small business of course you wouldnt expect them to go this route. However, for a major concern this is chump change - and the ACA ( Accelerated Capital Allowance ) tax incentive takes care of the outlay in any event.

Calahonda52

Hopefully the Revenue will clamp down on this as its a blindly obvious BIK issue: you want to be plugged in all day for free: it's an abuse.....
[Just kidding: as you know all ESB staff get free elec with no BIK.}

KCross

i don't think it's the money in most cases.

It's the
-hassle
- the precedent of putting in 2 means more will be required at some stage
- perception of favouring one group of employees over another... We do begrudgery well in this country!
- revenue still say that officially BIK is to be paid eventhough I doubt anyone does. BIK was given as a reason to me.
- no interest
- etc

They didn't mention cost of install at all.

Is there a future for work charging ? the likes of the 30 Kwh Leaf and Ioniq mean that a substantial amount of Irish people can meet their daily needs with home charging. Perhaps for Apartment owners. My Brother is getting fobbed off by the management company on getting a charge point installed. They're thinking several and cost and they funding it which will obviously come out of the residents pockets but he just wants one for him, he's not interested , he just wants a cp for himself in his space !

So I can maybe see a future It's hard to say, I think A law needs to be passed that everyone has the right to a charge point but that's highly unlikely to come from our own government !!!

I'll say this one more time, and people can either believe this or not.

There is no BIK on EV charging, it's as simple as that and this should be in a stickie and a lot of companies will just automatically come out with this crap out of their asses without doing any research.

There is no BIK on tea or coffee and it costs the company vastly more money to provide this than to charge electric cars !!!

isnottheword

KCross wrote: »

It's the hassle
- the precedent of putting in 2 means more will be required at some stage

They've already future proofed for that eventuality i.e. further charging posts to be installed as required further down the line (literally).

KCross wrote: »

- perception of favouring one group of employees over another... We do begrudgery well in this country!

That's the reason I was given but I'd really hope it couldn't possibly be this in all sincerity. The incentivisation should be obvious i.e. as a large organisation, they want to be seen to be eco/environmentally aware/responsible, etc. What could anyone say against this? It's not as if anyone is being disinfranchised. i.e. an entry level Leaf is there for anyone to buy for small money.

KCross wrote: »

- revenue still say that officially BIK is to be paid eventhough I doubt anyone does. BIK was given as a reason to me.

That was the initial reason given to me 6 months ago. However, there's no BIK until public charging costs something.

KCross wrote: »

- no interest

They're large enough of an organisation to have the interest (if it was a small business/employer, I wouldn't expect them to devote any time to such a consideration - at least, not right now).

KCross wrote: »

They didn't mention cost of install at all.

In the grand scheme of things, this is nothing in terms of expenditure for an organisation of this size - besides the fact that they claim it all back via the ACA in any event....

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll say this one more time, and people can either believe this or not.

There is no BIK on EV charging, it's as simple as that and this should be in a stickie and a lot of companies will just automatically come out with this crap out of their asses without doing any research.

I'll say it one more time, you are wrong!
I have it in black and white from revenue.

It's just not currently enforced.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there a future for work charging ? the likes of the 30 Kwh Leaf and Ioniq mean that a substantial amount of Irish people can meet their daily needs with home charging. Perhaps for Apartment owners.

We've hardly even started - albeit I understand what you're getting at. Yes, I still think there will be an ongoing case for the foreseeable future. Transient workers and apartment dwelling is the main reason. Perhaps the ability to access fast charging (charging standards are likely to change going forward) that may not be available via a domestic supply will also be relevant.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think A law needs to be passed that everyone has the right to a charge point but that's highly unlikely to come from our own government !!!

Yep - exactly in the same way as a right to broadband became a legal right.

unkel

Calahonda52 wrote: »

[Just kidding: as you know all ESB staff get free elec with no BIK.}

ESB staff get an average wage of over €100,000 :cool:

KCross

KCross wrote: »

I'll say it one more time, you are wrong!
I have it in black and white from revenue.

It's just not currently enforced.

Show me, I don't think our company would break any laws or risk any hassle from revenue.

It's s non issue !

unkel

unkel wrote: »

ESB staff get an average wage of over €100,000 :cool:

That's shocking !

n97 mini

homer911 wrote: »

I hear the Central Bank are putting in some charge points in the carpark of their new building - think it was a condition of the planning permission

Anecdotally public sector employers seem to be putting in more of them than private sector.

Gumbo

unkel wrote: »

The average industrial wage is what, about €35k, so the employee costs the employer about €200 per day. Seems silly to not let them charge for the occasional €5 a day. That's almost as mean as not paying for the coffee / tea / milk in the canteen. I do appreciate charge points cost a bit of money, but surely for a company with 100 staff to initially provide 2 charge point would be a nice goodwill gesture costing just a few grand? Or in a very small business pluggin in your own granny cable would do the trick

Would it even cost €5 per day?

On another note, my employer doesn't pay for our milk either, we also have to buy our own tea bags or buy a cuppa in the canteen for 65c

Gumbo

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Hopefully the Revenue will clamp down on this as its a blindly obvious BIK issue: you want to be plugged in all day for free: it's an abuse.....
[Just kidding: as you know all ESB staff get free elec with no BIK.}

unkel wrote: »

ESB staff get an average wage of over €100,000 :cool:

Just like public sector pay, don't let averages skew the real figures.
My GF works in EI, she's there nearly 10 years and earns under 30k.
But we do get a discount on a certain amount of units of the bill, it is called though.

n97 mini

Calahonda52 wrote: »

[Just kidding: as you know all ESB staff get free elec with no BIK.}

They don't get it free, just discounted, typically 55% off.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

Show me, I don't think our company would break any laws or risk any hassle from revenue.

It's s non issue !

Just for you Mad_Lad!




My own opinion is that very few, if any, companies are declaring BIK for this usage as its so small in value that revenue dont chase it. The cost of administering it at the company level would be more than the tax that revenue would collect. Note how they said "technically". I read between the lines of that as meaning.... "the law says X but the reality is Y".

However, companies still use it as an excuse.

Also, I think, the Low Emission Vehicle taskforce that is currently part of the programme for government will get revenue to declare it as a tax free incentive along with a bunch of other incentives as this one costs nothing as they are collecting nothing at present and its an easy sell for the government. It will then be one less thing for companies to use as an excuse.

"would technically" is not the same as yes ?

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

"would technically" is not the same as yes ?

It's in the affirmative so that's a 'yes'. I'd imagine it's very much like KCross says - it's not being enforced. However, if there's joined up thinking, this should be a no brainer i.e. declare it as exempt and publicise the fact. It would encourage employees to query with their employers and employers more likely to respond and install chargepoints.


It's a step that would cost .gov next to nothing - and assist EV uptake. Hearing that work were going to install chargepoints was enough for me to justify making the switch (even though they were not switched on until 6 months later and I may not use them that much just yet).

KCross

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"would technically" is not the same as yes ?

Technically you are right! We will leave it at that!

Of course I'm right !

DrPhilG

I haven't voted yet as I'm still waiting for a response. I work in the NHS in the North and I've made some early rumbles towards charge points but no reply yet

Given that the NHS is utterly broke, I'm not overly optimistic.

Evd-Burner

isnottheword wrote:

They have left management of same with the original installers of the chargepoint. Deposit paid directly to them via paypal. Charged out quarterly at what they deem to be the going rate (a typical residential rate). However, I could be wrong but I doubt very much that employer is paying residential rates! They use the energy supply equivalent of a small irish town, have their own CHP plant on-site, etc.

Deleted User wrote:

Wouldn't even register on the leccy bill !

Deleted User wrote:

8 electrics charging at 7 Kw = 56 Kw and probably equivalent to less than the lowest wattage light bulb in comparison to the campus consumption !

Deleted User wrote:

My work place has 8 charge points , all free to use !

Had a word with someone in power a few weeks ago who indicated they would perhaps get more put in as we now have all of the chargers in my car park in use each day. But it all depends if the budget is left over towards the end of the year. If anyone else buys an EV we could start doing swaps of the spaces etc.

Evd-Burner

Evd-Burner wrote: »

Had a word with someone in power a few weeks ago who indicated they would perhaps get more put in as we now have all of the chargers in my car park in use each day. But it all depends if the budget is left over towards the end of the year. If anyone else buys an EV we could start doing swaps of the spaces etc.

Oh they have the budget there alright , no problem getting mor charge points I heard.

They're all in use in 6 ? not here, there's only me using the one here in 3.

You're up early, I take it you're in today ?

Evd-Burner

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh they have the budget there alright , no problem getting mor charge points I heard.

They're all in use in 6 ? not here, there's only me using the one here in 3.

You're up early, I take it you're in today ?

No work for me today . Was up early to go to Scotland for a nice weekend with the misses. Away for the next 2 weeks though sorting out a few messes for work.

It's gonna be nice and cold where im going :eek:

cros13

I put in a query to Revenue on BIK in July 2016 from the employer perspective. These are the two replies I received:

Your e-mail below refers.

I am not aware that there is a benefit in kind charge in relation to the provision of such a facility, but that being said I have not come across the matter previously.

I have raised the issue with our Technical Services Area and I will respond to you when I receive an update.

Regards,
Employer Customer Services

I have not received any further update on the issue other than to advise the employer that in order to receive a definitive response on this the employer submit all details to the employer’s local audit district including the following information,

· Cost of installation of the electric charger
· Number of employees using electric cars
· Are the cars company cars?
· Projected cost to the employer and benefit to the individual employees
· The employer name and registration number.

Regards,
Employer Customer Services

I submitted those details to the audit district and received no response.

slave1

Asked but they are not interested in the extra expense (private sector), not bothered, would be nice but I don't intend using it myself in work so no real impact

robtri

we are in favour and willing to put one in.... but out of 400 staff no one owns one... so till at least one employee gets one... we aint putting one in yet!!!

isnottheword

slave1 wrote: »

Asked but they are not interested in the extra expense (private sector), not bothered, would be nice but I don't intend using it myself in work so no real impact

robtri wrote: »

we are in favour and willing to put one in.... but out of 400 staff no one owns one... so till at least one employee gets one... we aint putting one in yet!!!

@slave1 : Did you advise them on the ACA? They can claim back the total cost of the charger.


@robtri: It's kind of chicken and egg. Mine has a workforce of many times that - and there are only 2 of us with EV's at present. However, my decision to go for an EV was swayed when I heard the news that work were installing charging points.

KCross

isnottheword wrote: »

@slave1 : Did you advise them on the ACA? They can claim back the total cost of the charger.

AFAIK that isn't quite true. They can write off the total cost against their corporation tax which is very different to claiming back the total cost.

isnottheword

KCross wrote: »

AFAIK that isn't quite true. They can write off the total cost against their corporation tax which is very different to claiming back the total cost.

Yes, of course - you're quite right. I guess that's what I mean't to say. Still worthwhile to advise them of this slave1 - as they are unlikely to be aware of it.

slave1

Hi guys, yes, for my sins I spend the day enthralled in the wonderful world of finance and costs, simple answer is there's an immediate cash outlay which puts them off and secondly although the accelerated allowances are nice it still leaves a net cash cost...in 2017 in the private sector it's viewed as an unnecessary cost and we work on slim margins so that will a no for us...

steelboots

I'm being charged €3.50 for 2 hours by landlord, not my employer. Needless to say I don't use as I can do round trip using 50-75% charge. If I need extra for extra driving I have 3 FCPs all within 17 miles, with one just 1 mile from work. Charging by time is crazy, because you will pay double if you have a 3.3kw Leaf .

unkel

steelboots wrote: »

I'm being charged €3.50 for 2 hours by landlord

If you can charge at 7.2kW, that's not that bad.

KCross

steelboots wrote: »

I'm being charged €3.50 for 2 hours by landlord, not my employer. Needless to say I don't use as I can do round trip using 50-75% charge. If I need extra for extra driving I have 3 FCPs all within 17 miles, with one just 1 mile from work. Charging by time is crazy, because you will pay double if you have a 3.3kw Leaf .

As unkel said, thats quite good if you can get 14kWh's in 2hrs. When charging for charging comes in its going to cost an awful lot more than that!

Why is your landlord charging you though? Dont you have your own meter and your own bill?

The Rooster

cros13 wrote: »

I put in a query to Revenue on BIK in July 2016 from the employer perspective. These are the two replies I received:






I submitted those details to the audit district and received no response.

You need to be very careful as to what you say to Revenue. And also if Revenue give you a negative answer, don't simply accept it. They often get stuff wrong and can be challenged.

If a benefit such as this is available to all employees then it should not be a Benefit-in-Kind, unless they specify that certain charge points are only availabe to use by certain employees. Like when some employers provide free meals to employees, it is not a BIK. However, if it was only the MD and FD who got free food, then that would be a BIK for them.

So just be sure when contacting Revenue that you say it is available for all employees to use (rather the saying it's Cros and Rooster who use it as they are the only ones with EVs).

KCross

The Rooster wrote: »

You need to be very careful as to what you say to Revenue. And also if Revenue give you a negative answer, don't simply accept it. They often get stuff wrong and can be challenged.

Probably depends on who picks up the query. Worth challenging alright.

The Rooster wrote: »

If a benefit such as this is available to all employees then it should not be a Benefit-in-Kind,...

hmm... i'd be skeptical about that statement. If that were true they could just reduce everyones salary and give all employees, say, a €10000 voucher tax free. Everyone would win in that case, except revenue.

Just because its available to everyone doesnt make it BIK exempt, IMO.

The Rooster wrote: »

So just be sure when contacting Revenue that you say it is available for all employees to use (rather the saying it's Cros and Rooster who use it as they are the only ones with EVs).

In my question to them a few posts back I said it was available to employees. I didnt use the word "all" but it was implicit.



Do you believe that legally there is no BIK on free work charging if its available to all employees?