The urgent need to reduce the cost of labour in Ireland.

realitykeeper

I read recently that 7 containers of sorted waste were returned to Ireland from the Netherlands because the waste was contaminated i.e. not sorted properly.

Perhaps it is time to look at how waste could be better processed in Ireland. The options of landfill and export to foreign incinerators is the current method because recycling and processing are too expensive.

The reason these environmentally desirable alternatives are too expensive is because to do it properly would require either expensive equipment or cheap labour. The expensive equipment option would require a long term investment and the chances of making a profit are extremely slim because low level manufacturing (everyday stuff, buckets & spades) is not really viable in this country because we do not have cheap labour.

While the government has reduced unemployment in recent years, what matters is the bottom line, i.e. jobs that result in money coming into the country. Low level manufacturing would do that and reduce money flowing out of the country. This is one reason why it would be better to scrap the minimum wage and reduce the dole and state salaries substantially.

One final point, the country is still running a deficit 9 years after the crisis of 2008. For all the jobs that were created, the government cannot even balance the books. What if a recession hits again this year? More to the point, what could the EU do to help when interest rates are already at zero? Could the euro remain credible if it were subjected to even more QE?

This country needs to become a low wage economy urgently. If that means mass evictions of mortgage defaulters, then at least other people will get to move in. It is far better to preempt a crisis than to wait for the crisis to force your hand.

Apart from recycling and basic goods manufacturing, what other areas of endevour could Ireland be missing out on because of the high labour costs in this country?

Urgent need to reduce the cost of living in Ireland

Fixed that for you

Mongfinder General

The State had almost total control of waste disposal until it divested the service about 10-15 years ago. The government of the time thought that there was enough waste out there to create competition and create a private market.

Well it turns out that some members of the public don't really like paying for waste collection so they got innovative. Dumping the rubbish any which way they can. Burn it, dump it in a ditch,neighbors bin, dumpster at work etc. The result? There is nowhere near the amount of revenue in waste collection as originally perceived, hence the pay by weight move last year.

We should have invested in an incinerator. We still should.

As for reducing wages, dole state salaries etc what planet is the op on? It'll be a nice little kick in the stones for the op when he/she realizes that the business they're involved in has 40% less custom because its clients have had their salaries cut due to the deflationary effects of the cuts.

The J Stands for Jay

So, are we going to import a load of raw materials to make stuff from?

nhunter100

Mongfinder General wrote:

We should have invested in an incinerator. We still should.

Pool beg.

stampydmonkey

nhunter100 wrote: »

Pool beg.

Haha ....fact

Mongfinder General

stampydmonkey wrote: »

Haha ....fact

I'd forgotten all about that saga!

realitykeeper

Deleted User wrote: »

Urgent need to reduce the cost of living in Ireland

Fixed that for you

In that chicken & egg scenario, cost of labour must fall first.

realitykeeper

realitykeeper wrote: »

In that chicken & egg scenario, cost of labour must fall first.

The chicken and egg scenario clearly has a definitive answer in whatever rhetorical plane you're operating on.

Where I'm from, the entire point of the chicken egg scenario is rather the opposite.

realitykeeper

McGaggs wrote: »

So, are we going to import a load of raw materials to make stuff from?

Things are possible when labour costs are low.

amcalester

Why don't you take the lead OP, take a 50% pay cut starting Monday.

No? Didn't think so.

Wanderer78

Very disturbing view on things op, the problem with waste isn't really with the end user but indeed with the very beginning of our material and product creation systems. The 'polluter pays' principle shows that our politicians arent thinking holistically about our waste issues, even though waste is everybody's problem, very little emphasis is being made of these issues at the very beginning of the process, I.e. material and product creation manufacturers. This has lead me to create the idea of the 'creator pays' principle, this is whereby the creators of our materials and products also 'pay' their fair share along with the 'polluter', in order to deal with these issues.

The main problem with this approach is that we're stuck with a God awful economic system that has the potential to collapse our socioeconomic and environmental systems, and we have the audacity to call it the (not so) 'free' market, on another note, who exactly is this market 'free' for, as it isn't exactly for 'polluters', maybe we need to look at the other end, I.e. the very beginning of the process!

Imposing 'responsibility' on the creators would be seen as 'interfering' with the market, really! I see it as trying to be proactive in dealing with our waste issues and trying to preserve our planet for future generations. It really is time for us to ditch this whole free market crap.

Oh you can ditch this idea of 'balancing the books', what a load of crap. It truly is fine for governments to run deficits, the world will not implode, we really need to ditch econ 101!

PCX

What I'm not sure of is what would be the end goal you are trying to achieve in reducing wages etc.

Is it to make it easier for foreign companies to come here and make larger profits while not having to pass any benefits on to the 'natives'?

In the system you are advocating the rich will get richer while the vast majority of the population will have much reduced standards of living.

I don't want to live in a country like that but if you do there are plenty of third world countries that operate like that you can move to.

ancapailldorcha

stampydmonkey wrote: »

Haha ....fact

No more of this crap please.

Phoebas

realitykeeper wrote: »

I read recently that 7 containers of sorted waste were returned to Ireland from the Netherlands because the waste was contaminated i.e. not sorted properly.

[...]

This country needs to become a low wage economy urgently.

So we can compete with the Netherlands?
If they are doing waste recycling for us, the its probably because they've invested in technology to do it, not because they are paying low wages.

El_Duderino 09

realitykeeper wrote:

cost of labour must fall first.

When you say 'labour' and social welfare, it brings to mind physical trades which which aren't exactly highly paid to begin with.

Are you proposing reducing all wages or just the wages of the already lowly paid?

Instead big starting by reducing wages of people on the breadline, how about we start by reducing the wages of those who can afford it?

Richard Hillman

The PRSI contribution and red tape around employment is ridiculously over the top. It's not necessarily wages, it's all the crap that goes around employing somebody that kills companies. It's costly, it's time consuming, it's beurocratic nonsense.

bee06

Phoebas wrote: »

So we can compete with the Netherlands?
If they are doing waste recycling for us, the its probably because they've invested in technology to do it, not because they are paying low wages.

What the OP failed to mention was the waste was going to China, just stopped in Rotterdam for that check. The expert speaking in the segment said China have the most efficient paper mill etc in the world that why we use them.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

I read recently that 7 containers of sorted waste were returned to Ireland from the Netherlands because the waste was contaminated i.e. not sorted properly.

Perhaps it is time to look at how waste could be better processed in Ireland. The options of landfill and export to foreign incinerators is the current method because recycling and processing are too expensive.

The reason these environmentally desirable alternatives are too expensive is because to do it properly would require either expensive equipment or cheap labour. The expensive equipment option would require a long term investment and the chances of making a profit are extremely slim because low level manufacturing (everyday stuff, buckets & spades) is not really viable in this country because we do not have cheap labour.

While the government has reduced unemployment in recent years, what matters is the bottom line, i.e. jobs that result in money coming into the country. Low level manufacturing would do that and reduce money flowing out of the country. This is one reason why it would be better to scrap the minimum wage and reduce the dole and state salaries substantially.

One final point, the country is still running a deficit 9 years after the crisis of 2008. For all the jobs that were created, the government cannot even balance the books. What if a recession hits again this year? More to the point, what could the EU do to help when interest rates are already at zero? Could the euro remain credible if it were subjected to even more QE?

This country needs to become a low wage economy urgently. If that means mass evictions of mortgage defaulters, then at least other people will get to move in. It is far better to preempt a crisis than to wait for the crisis to force your hand.

Apart from recycling and basic goods manufacturing, what other areas of endevour could Ireland be missing out on because of the high labour costs in this country?

Most if not all of the sorting stations are automated.

The reason these containers made it to Rotterdam is not because of a failure of the technology it was because whoever shipped them also went to significant lengths to evade the checks carried out at national level (organised through the Nation Trans-Frontier Shipments Office) - and for obvious enough reasons as they didn't sort it properly, and the availability/unavailability of cheap labour and/or technology to facilitate effective sorting won't make a blind bit of difference to someone intent on doing an end run around the checks to make a quick buck.

We can't process waste in Ireland to recycle it because we don't have enough - it is an industry/activity that requires serious scale to be profitable, which means serious amounts of waste - which means we either consume mega-amounts of resources to generate the waste or we import it from elsewhere, neither of those ideas are particularly sound.

.....kudos though for managing to link waste smuggling to QE!

EDIT: btw, it was 160 containers, not 7 - 50 odd were allowed to remain in the Netherlands for processing their and the rest were returned because of contamination with organic matter.

Samaris

Not really seeing how OP got from seven (or 160) cans of unsorted waste to "reduce minimum wage".

But yeah, you can reduce minimum wage, but its buying power has to remain good. Therefore, the cost of living needs to drop. Otherwise you might as well do what someone above suggested, offer to take a 50% wage cut and see how viable a solution it is.

Donal55

realitykeeper wrote: »

In that chicken & egg scenario, cost of labour must fall first.

Didn't the cost of Labour just fall off a cliff between 2008 and 2013?

Jawgap

Donal55 wrote: »

Didn't the cost of Labour just fall off a cliff between 2008 and 2013?

That's the reality.....it'll fall off another cliff when QE causes the world to end too

Wanderer78

Jawgap wrote: »

That's the reality.....it'll fall off another cliff when QE causes the world to end too

what caused the drop off at the end of the graph?

Jawgap

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what caused the drop off at the end of the graph?

I don't know - I'd say there's a lag in the data and that last bar includes the wages of casual staff taken on for Christmas???

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The cost of living needs to come down first and a quick way to do that would be to return the VAT rate to its 2011 rate of 21%. It would only be a 2 percent decrease I know, but it would be 2% on practically everything you buy.

Water John

Is the OP looking for a job as a sorter at one of the recycling stations?
Min wage, zero hours contract. Gloves supplied, smell free.

El_Duderino 09

Water John wrote:

Is the OP looking for a job as a sorter at one of the recycling stations? Min wage, zero hours contract. Gloves supplied, smell free.

I doubt it. It smacks of 'other people should accept lower pay'. I'll be surprised if 'other people' aren't poorer people.

Idbatterim

Vat should be reduced, but two things, it doesnt necessarily mean it will be passed on to customers, secondly, what draws more headlines and votes? Vat rate cut or income tax rate reduced? Id also say that cutting the damaging marginal rate is a bigger priority...

I think the Social Democrats and Renua are two who raise the issue the cost of living. FG give you a few euro in welfare or usc cut is a joke, compared to the cost of living increases, which it would cost nothing, to do something about...

Mr.Micro

realitykeeper wrote: »

I read recently that 7 containers of sorted waste were returned to Ireland from the Netherlands because the waste was contaminated i.e. not sorted properly.

Perhaps it is time to look at how waste could be better processed in Ireland. The options of landfill and export to foreign incinerators is the current method because recycling and processing are too expensive.

The reason these environmentally desirable alternatives are too expensive is because to do it properly would require either expensive equipment or cheap labour. The expensive equipment option would require a long term investment and the chances of making a profit are extremely slim because low level manufacturing (everyday stuff, buckets & spades) is not really viable in this country because we do not have cheap labour.

While the government has reduced unemployment in recent years, what matters is the bottom line, i.e. jobs that result in money coming into the country. Low level manufacturing would do that and reduce money flowing out of the country. This is one reason why it would be better to scrap the minimum wage and reduce the dole and state salaries substantially.

One final point, the country is still running a deficit 9 years after the crisis of 2008. For all the jobs that were created, the government cannot even balance the books. What if a recession hits again this year? More to the point, what could the EU do to help when interest rates are already at zero? Could the euro remain credible if it were subjected to even more QE?

This country needs to become a low wage economy urgently. If that means mass evictions of mortgage defaulters, then at least other people will get to move in. It is far better to preempt a crisis than to wait for the crisis to force your hand.

Apart from recycling and basic goods manufacturing, what other areas of endevour could Ireland be missing out on because of the high labour costs in this country?

I think I read that people had made the time and effort to stuff cereal boxes full of waste, then put them in their recycle bins. How do you beat that. What sort of mentality is that? Disgusting

Water John

You are correct Mcro, but what has it got to do with the cost of labour, as OP maintains?

Mr.Micro

Water John wrote: »

You are correct Mcro, but what has it got to do with the cost of labour, as OP maintains?

My apologies, nothing, other than these people took the time and effort to stuff the boxes, effectively ruining the whole recycle effort and overall costs of the scheme. The companies then have to make up these extra costs and perhaps could push it on their employees to take less wages.

K.Flyer

Mr.Micro wrote: »

My apologies, nothing, other than these people took the time and effort to stuff the boxes, effectively ruining the whole recycle effort and overall costs of the scheme. The companies then have to make up these extra costs and perhaps could push it on their employees to take less wages.

Are you for real??
So it is their employees fault that someone didn't follow the rules of recycling and they should suffer in their pocked for it.. :rolleyes:

koutoubia

I work for a waste management company.
WRT to contamination of Recycling bins.....It's already in place where Recycling bins are spot checked and if found to be contaminated then the bin won't be lifted by the Recycling truck but instead lifted by the waste truck . That account will then be charged for a waste lift.

Mr.Micro

K.Flyer wrote: »

Are you for real??
So it is their employees fault that someone didn't follow the rules of recycling and they should suffer in their pocked for it.. :rolleyes:

Where did I say that. Are you for real?

K.Flyer

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Where did I say that. Are you for real?

Mr.Micro wrote: »

My apologies, nothing, other than these people took the time and effort to stuff the boxes, effectively ruining the whole recycle effort and overall costs of the scheme. The companies then have to make up these extra costs and perhaps could push it on their employees to take less wages.

Push employees to take less wages due to someone not using their recycling facilities correctly.

Mr.Micro

K.Flyer wrote: »

Push employees to take less wages due to someone not using their recycling facilities correctly.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

My apologies, nothing, other than these people took the time and effort to stuff the boxes, effectively ruining the whole recycle effort and overall costs of the scheme. The companies then have to make up these extra costs and perhaps could push it on their employees to take less wages.

Did you miss the word Perhaps. It means an awful lot in context of my post. Businesses will cut costs anywhere they can to survive.

K.Flyer

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Did you miss the word Perhaps. It means an awful lot in context of my post. Businesses will cut costs anywhere they can to survive.

When I read your post the word "could" after the word "perhaps" came across to me that it would be an acceptable practice to cut wages due to someone else's poor quality control systems.
Instead why not suggest that they penalise whoever delivered that load to them, so that they in turn can improve their standards of monitoring of what they collect.
In my opinion what greatly needs to be addressed in this country is the raising of the standard of quality of services and accountability.

Donal55

How come QC at the Recycling/Picking plant missed all this contaminated waste, yet QC at the Dutch end didn't?

That's where Reality's pay cut should start.

Jawgap

Donal55 wrote: »

How come QC at the Recycling/Picking plant missed all this contaminated waste, yet QC at the Dutch end didn't?

That's where Reality's pay cut should start.

The Dutch used oxygen detectors to determine the presence of the organic contamination, not visual inspection.

The shipper also, apparently, by-passed the controls here on waste going for export.

CrabRevolution

If I was working in a waste processing facility for minimum wage on a zero hours contract, I don't think cutting my pay would make me more diligent and dedicated to doing a good job!

"The beatings will continue until morale improves"

Yourself isit

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The PRSI contribution and red tape around employment is ridiculously over the top. It's not necessarily wages, it's all the crap that goes around employing somebody that kills companies. It's costly, it's time consuming, it's beurocratic nonsense.

It's much lower here than most countries in Europe.

jimmycrackcorm

If we want to cut the cost of living and labour then the obvious issue to tackle is the cost of housing.

The government should CPO tracts of land and offer incentives to get low cost housing built.

K.Flyer

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If we want to cut the cost of living and labour then the obvious issue to tackle is the cost of housing.

The government should CPO tracts of land and offer incentives to get low cost housing built.

Been done before with not very good results, lots of council houses with no amenities equals a recipe for disaster.

Donal55

K.Flyer wrote: »

Been done before with not very good results, lots of council houses with no amenities equals a recipe for disaster.

True. And yet on the private side we've lots of houses built in villages and small towns with no amenities either.
We really can't do anything right in this country.

Donal55

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If we want to cut the cost of living and labour then the obvious issue to tackle is the cost of housing.

The government should CPO tracts of land and offer incentives to get low cost housing built.

During the week the CSO updated the CPI. There were lots of items included and lots of old items, such as video recorders etc excluded and replaced by more modern electronics.

I didn't hear however if two of the main costs ie, rent and insurance were included.
Would anyone know?
Thanks.

Sleeper12

realitykeeper wrote:

In that chicken & egg scenario, cost of labour must fall first.

Not with the cost of renting accommodation

Donal55

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Not with the cost of renting accommodation

Exactly. Rental costs already at 06/07 levels and most people haven't received payrises in years.

El_Duderino 09

Donal55 wrote:

True. And yet on the private side we've lots of houses built in villages and small towns with no amenities either. We really can't do anything right in this country.

If you prevented house building because of lack of amenities in small villages, you'd be the nanny state. Whinging makes it very difficult to win by doing anything when in government. Doing nothing is often the best course but they nothing gets done. People need to accept that sometimes (often) picking the least bad option is to be applauded.

Mancomb Seepgood

K.Flyer wrote: »

Been done before with not very good results, lots of council houses with no amenities equals a recipe for disaster.

Council estates were all too often built without adequate amenities (or any amenities at all).

At the same though,they did provide decent housing for large numbers of people and we're a damn sight better than some of the collapsing inner city tenements that they replaced.There is no reason why the mistakes of the past must be repeated.

realitykeeper

Wanderer78 wrote: »

The 'polluter pays' principle shows that our politicians arent thinking holistically about our waste issues, even though waste is everybody's problem, very little emphasis is being made of these issues at the very beginning of the process, I.e. material and product creation manufacturers. This has lead me to create the idea of the 'creator pays' principle, this is whereby the creators of our materials and products also 'pay' their fair share along with the 'polluter', in order to deal with these issues.

Part of the problem is that most of what we consume is made elsewhere, thereby limiting control of manufacturing/packaging. Otherwise, a valid point.

realitykeeper

PCX wrote: »

What I'm not sure of is what would be the end goal you are trying to achieve in reducing wages etc.

Is it to make it easier for foreign companies to come here and make larger profits while not having to pass any benefits on to the 'natives'?

In the system you are advocating the rich will get richer while the vast majority of the population will have much reduced standards of living.

I don't want to live in a country like that but if you do there are plenty of third world countries that operate like that you can move to.

Low pay is more likely to facilitate home grown industry with export potential. Low pay makes environmental regeneration projects possible. So much good can come of low pay! Think about it, an Irish person expects more money than an African or Asian per hour worked which means the Irish are more reluctant to work. This will have negative consequences for Ireland.