The urgent need to reduce the cost of labour in Ireland.

realitykeeper

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You can't imagine a maximum wage, so what about the maximum ratio of highest to lowest paid.

That is up to market demand. Let the markets decide what an employee is worth.

I do absolutely concede that CEOs regularly resort to creative accounting to swell their earnings. Whenever you hear of a large company, be they Tesco, Shell or whatever saying profits were up 24% on the year before then the new CEO says "that was me adding value to the company", you gotta laugh.

All that happened was the outgoing CEO under declared last years profit (or pre declared next years losses) and the new CEO can then declared last years profits as this years, to justify his hysterical pay hike to shareholders.

Mancomb Seepgood

realitykeeper wrote: »

If everyone took a 50% pay cut, the growth in employment and the demand for employees would be so rapid, pay would begin to rise again to meet the falling prices. The real difficulty would be people committed to high mortgage payments. They should have been more savvy. Anyway, by evicting them, the houses would be sold cheaply to people who are presently renting.

You plan to save the economy by destroying it then,along with the livelihoods and living standards of countless people. Whatever about the export sector,cross the board 50% pay cuts would wipe out domestic consumption.This is a daft proposal to solve a problem that only seems to exist in your head.

El_Duderino 09

realitykeeper wrote:

That is up to market demand. Let the markets decide what an employee is worth.

Isn't that exactly what's happening now? With an additional safety net to avoid the most vulnerable from living in penury and dropping out of society (the minimum wage)?

Donal55

realitykeeper wrote: »

There also would be natural downward pressure on above average private sector salaries as the cost of living falls. However, can`t imagine a law that says you cannot pay your employee more than X amount.

And do you think that the PS would sit idly by, as their counterparts in the private sector's wages rise???

realitykeeper

Owryan wrote: »

Why would employment rise if everyone took a paycut? Then the quandary of how rising wages would mean lower prices, is it not usually the opposite?

If you think about the question I was asked originally, the answer to your question is obvious.

If everyone took a 50% pay cut prices would fall. Meanwhile, the cheaper labour becomes a purchasable commodity to startups, existing employers and foreign investors seeking to set up businesses are every kind in this new competitive environment. As demand for workers increases, their pay will rise (from the 50% cut they had taken) even as prices are still falling because of the 50% pay cut they took.

realitykeeper

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Isn't that exactly what's happening now?

No. Ireland has a minimum wage making it impossible to employ someone who is not worth it.

stefanovich

What we need to do is promote Ireland as the destination for illegal immigration just like the left are doing in the US and the continent. Then we get cheap, easily exploitable low-wage workers.

realitykeeper

Donal55 wrote: »

And do you think that the PS would sit idly by, as their counterparts in the private sector's wages rise???

Public sector people could join the real world of private enterprise.

realitykeeper

stefanovich wrote: »

What we need to do is promote Ireland as the destination for illegal immigration just like the left are doing in the US and the continent. Then we get cheap, easily exploitable low-wage workers.

We could work cheaply ourselves.

stefanovich

realitykeeper wrote: »

Public sector people could join the real world of private enterprise.

You mean meritocracy? In the public sector? Are you mad?

greendom

realitykeeper wrote: »

No. Ireland has a minimum wage making it impossible to employ someone who is not worth it.

For a modern successful economy, the minimum wage is still too low. Recipients of it still have to rely on state benefits such as Family Income Supplement etc. Employers need to start taking full responsibility for their employees and the living wage should be the minimum wage.

stefanovich

realitykeeper wrote: »

We could work cheaply ourselves.

Cheaper than what? Minimum wage? Not encouraging illegal immigration is racist.

Donal55

realitykeeper wrote: »

Public sector people could join the real world of private enterprise.

Yes. But in your world the private sector would be allowed have higher wages, so surely the PS would follow suit!

weisses

stefanovich wrote: »

What we need to do is promote Ireland as the destination for illegal immigration just like the left are doing in the US and the continent. Then we get cheap, easily exploitable low-wage workers.

You don't need illegal immigrants ... Eastern Europeans are doing that job already ... Legally

stefanovich

weisses wrote: »

You don't need illegal immigrants ... Eastern Europeans are doing that job already ... Legally

The joys of the european project.

weisses

realitykeeper wrote: »

If everyone took a 50% pay cut prices would fall.

How would that work out with Mortgages, and other bills that have to be paid monthly

You have us all living on the street before prices go down, and businesses go belly up

Donal55

How is this thread in Irish Economy and not in After Hours?

weisses

stefanovich wrote: »

The joys of the european project.

It is one of the flaws ... Correct

stefanovich

We need to reduce the cost of welfare and reduce the tax burden on people.

relax carry on

I have to ask you Reality keeper, are you an economist? I've seen your name on countless threads over the years and can't recall ever seeing anyone ever agree with your predictions or odd visions for society that seem to involve destroying what exists now to benefit yourself. It's fascinating.
Also what political party do you think would back your proposals? Have you ever spoken with a political representative about them?

Wanderer78

realitykeeper wrote:

Public sector people could join the real world of private enterprise.

I must inform those I know working in the public sector, that they work in an altered reality! What a bizzar thread, thankfully this lowering of minimum wage will probably never happen, strange method of thought op, you d fit in well with the sociopathic world of some in our economic and financial sectors

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

The government deliberately re inflated the property market so that NAMA might make a "profit." Leprechaun economics is alive and well.

Jawgap wrote: »

How? Explain please.

Are you going to answer any questions or just continue to ignore them?

realitykeeper wrote: »

... which is why Ireland would begin to manufacture and become more export orientated. At present, Ireland is still running a fiscal deficit. If indigenous export orientated manufacturing became the main employment source, Ireland would have a fiscal surplus.

......and what resources/energy would we use to produce these manufactures?

You do realise the phrase "small open economy" has real meaning, it's not just a sound bite.

Mr.Micro

realitykeeper wrote: »

If you think about the question I was asked originally, the answer to your question is obvious.

If everyone took a 50% pay cut prices would fall. Meanwhile, the cheaper labour becomes a purchasable commodity to startups, existing employers and foreign investors seeking to set up businesses are every kind in this new competitive environment. As demand for workers increases, their pay will rise (from the 50% cut they had taken) even as prices are still falling because of the 50% pay cut they took.

Unfortunately, Ireland is a very expensive country. Food prices are high and so are goods in the stores. Car prices, even second hand cars, a rip off. When it comes to insurance, what can I say. Medical and Dental bills, hugely inflated. Rents, house prices, huge. Would the retailers and all the other treasure island merchants reduce their prices to accommodate such a scheme? No, IMO.


Ireland despite some progress, is still not a diverse enough economy.

El_Duderino 09

realitykeeper wrote:

No. Ireland has a minimum wage making it impossible to employ someone who is not worth it.

I think you're ducking and diving by using two meanings of 'worth'. Toilets must be cleaned and floors must be hoovered. They are essential jobs so must be 'worth' paying for. I think right now you mean a simple supply/demand, rather than the worth of the job.

How much you can drive down payment by reference to supply of labour, is different to worth of a job.

Like I keep saying, this whole argument is underpinned by the assumption that the OP will be among the last to take a pay cut.

Owryan

So, i take a 50% pay cut tomorrow and the price of everything will drop straight away? Is that what u are saying.

What about those who bought to products to sell at a certain price, they would have to take a massive loss, probably end up shutting down. What about all the things imported into Ireland. Will the manufacturers have to sell them at the now massively discounted price (V V V unlikely).

We saw it during the boom, as soon as wages rise, prices rise. You still haven't explained why people should be evicted just because they have mortgages to let renters buy their home.

Perhaps you need to step away from the keyboard and go back to staring out the window for that economic disaster that you have been predicting is on the way. Just in case you miss it, like.

Water John

This is the only thread on Boards that I have followed, that I am stopping. It's just whacky stuff.

pablo128

Water John wrote: »

This is the only thread on Boards that I have followed, that I am stopping. It's just whacky stuff.

On the contrary. Its comedy gold.:pac:

Donal55

realitykeeper wrote: »

We could work cheaply ourselves.

You go first.

realitykeeper

Donal55 wrote: »

Yes. But in your world the private sector would be allowed have higher wages, so surely the PS would follow suit!

That is stealing. Money should be earned like in the private sector.

Allinall

realitykeeper wrote: »

That is stealing. Money should be earned like in the private sector.

Are you seriously calling all public sector staff thieves?

Like, seriously?

realitykeeper

weisses wrote: »

How would that work out with Mortgages, and other bills that have to be paid monthly

You have us all living on the street before prices go down, and businesses go belly up

Yes but renters could become buyers and defaulters could become renters. There has to be a penalty for those people who borrowed against each other and pushed house prices sky high with borrowed money. When they defaulted, everyone else had to pay via bank bailouts. Now they are doing it again! So yes, by all means they should be evicted.

Rightwing

realitykeeper isn't all wrong folks. But then again, few people are. The world of finance and economics are in chaos, laregly down to poor Government/Central bank policies. We will certainly see a bigger crash than the last one, but not just Irl, the western world. Maybe they can blame it on Trump. Simply put, you can't keep interest rates at 0, massive QE programmes, load up on national debt and expect nothing to happen. If it was that easy there would be a glimmer of hope for our friends over in Venezuela.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

That is stealing. Money should be earned like in the private sector.

So the public sector don't earn their wages.....the nurses and doctors in the EDs, the Guards and Firefighters out dealing with the fallout from the storm today, the ATCOs helping to land flights etc etc etc etc......they don't earn their wages?

......and a recent departee from the Public Service, I can confirm that wasters are not the sole preserve of public bodies.

realitykeeper

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think you're ducking and diving by using two meanings of 'worth'. Toilets must be cleaned and floors must be hoovered. They are essential jobs so must be 'worth' paying for. I think right now you mean a simple supply/demand, rather than the worth of the job.

How much you can drive down payment by reference to supply of labour, is different to worth of a job.

Like I keep saying, this whole argument is underpinned by the assumption that the OP will be among the last to take a pay cut.

Lets say the worker cleaning the toilet gets the minimum wage. Meanwhile in Kenya another worker is doing exactly the same work at 1% of the cost. This sort of thing makes Ireland less competitive. But I am really talking about factory floor productive jobs. Again, Ireland cannot compete because of the minimum wage. If the Irish did work low paid jobs ourselves, immigrants would be fewer in number but much more qualified which is what we want. Instead the best of the Irish are leaving and the least qualified of the immigrants are coming.

Allinall

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes but renters could become buyers and defaulters could become renters. There has to be a penalty for those people who borrowed against each other and pushed house prices sky high with borrowed money. When they defaulted, everyone else had to pay via bank bailouts. Now they are doing it again! So yes, by all means they should be evicted.

What about all those people who didn't "borrow against each other" (whatever that means), but borrowed eel within their means.

Will you be happy to see them evicted when their income is decimated by your madcap scheme?

Come to think of it, who exactly will gain by this folly?

realitykeeper

Owryan wrote: »

So, i take a 50% pay cut tomorrow and the price of everything will drop straight away? Is that what u are saying.

What about those who bought to products to sell at a certain price ...

I`ll stop you there. One must be patient. Have you ever heard of the marshmallow test? Stamping the foot and demanding instant gratification is understandable in two year olds. Grown ups ought to be mature enough to make better decisions.

realitykeeper

Allinall wrote: »

Are you seriously calling all public sector staff thieves?

Like, seriously?

Supposing I ran a car dealership and I said you have to buy one of my cars or you go to jail. That is extortion. Perhaps Al Capone be a better analogy for the public sector.

Allinall

realitykeeper wrote: »

Supposing I ran a car dealership and I said you have to buy one of my cars or you go to jail. That is extortion. Perhaps Al Capone be a better analogy for the public sector.

What?

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

So the public sector don't earn their wages.....the nurses and doctors in the EDs, the Guards and Firefighters out dealing with the fallout from the storm today, the ATCOs helping to land flights etc etc etc etc......they don't earn their wages?

......and a recent departee from the Public Service, I can confirm that wasters are not the sole preserve of public bodies.

If they were worth their salt they would sell their services to voluntary buyers and clear a profit. They`re not so they don`t.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

Supposing I ran a car dealership and I said you have to buy one of my cars or you go to jail. That is extortion. Perhaps Al Capone be a better analogy for the public sector.

Yes, Al Capone.......made his money in the private sector.......

......but it was Public Servants in the form of Treasury Agents and IRS investigators who put a halt to his murderous reign

Btw, as you going to continue to so assiduously ignore questions?

Donal55

realitykeeper wrote: »

Supposing I ran a car dealership and I said you have to buy one of my cars or you go to jail. That is extortion. Perhaps Al Capone be a better analogy for the public sector.

So what do you want. Privatised fire and emergency services. Privatised medical care. Privatised defence forces. Privatised civil service. All that costs money. And don't forget all of us in your new world have already cut our wages.
Who will pay?

realitykeeper

Allinall wrote: »

What?

The public sector is supported by taxes. Tax paying is not voluntary.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

If they were worth their salt they would sell their services to voluntary buyers and clear a profit. They`re not so they don`t.

How do you put a price on altruism?

I've a few Guards in the family, over the years they've tackled armed robbers, cut down suicide victims, searched for body parts after incidents etc etc.....which "voluntary buyers" should they apply to for work?

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

The public sector is supported by taxes. Tax paying is not voluntary.

Mostly, but not entirely.

Allinall

realitykeeper wrote: »

The public sector is supported by taxes. Tax paying is not voluntary.

and that makes them thieves?

Mancomb Seepgood

Jawgap wrote: »

How do you put a price on altruism?

I've a few Guards in the family, over the years they've tackled armed robbers, cut down suicide victims, searched for body parts after incidents etc etc.....which "voluntary buyers" should they apply to for work?

Presumably ”voluntary buyers” would include the victims of car accidents,the relatives of suicide victims and so on who would contact the for-profit policing service of their choice.All major credit cards accepted,no doubt. It's quite the dystopia that the OP is pining for.

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

Are you going to answer any questions or just continue to ignore them?

You asked how the government re-inflated property prices. Here`s how:

Before the housing crash bottomed out, the government put tranches of property on the market with a guarantee to compensate buyers if the properties fell in value by more that 20%. This got people buying when the true level of the falling property market had yet to be reached. By buying property before the property market bottomed out, the new buyers created a false floor to the market from which prices could begin to rise. To further inflate the bubble, the government made it very difficult to repossess the properties of defaulters thereby keeping those properties off the market, thereby creating scarcity, thereby inflating the property bubble again.

Then they borrowed billions not just to bail out the banks but to keep spending on state salaries in order to keep state employees with mortgages in the black and the trickle down effect of their spending to keep the economic stimulus going. The drug addict analogy is an appropriate one for the Irish economy. So, it is clear the state re-inflated the property bubble to help NAMA.

Jawgap

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Presumably ”voluntary buyers” would include the victims of car accidents,the relatives of suicide victims and so on who would contact the for-profit policing service of their choice.All major credit cards accepted,no doubt. It's quite the dystopia that the OP is pining for.

Indeed, the "Ryanairisation" of public services is just what we need - pay for every public service as you go - if you can't pay for it you can't have it, whether that's fire and rescue, investigation of your mugging or anasthetic for your operation

Between that, the imminent economic collapse due in 2015 2016 2017 2018 and the drastic wage cuts it'll be like living in a world that's a cross between The Purge, Soyalent Green and Robocop!!

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

You asked how the government re-inflated property prices. Here`s how:

Before the housing crash bottomed out, the government put tranches of property on the market with a guarantee to compensate buyers if the properties fell in value by more that 20%. This got people buying when the true price of the property market had yet to be reached. By buying property before the property market bottomed out, the new buyers created a false floor to the market from which prices could begin to rise. To further inflate the bubble, the government made it very difficult to repossess the properties of defaulters thereby keeping those properties off the market, thereby creating scarcity, thereby inflating the property bubble again.

Then they borrowed billions not just to bail out the banks but to keep spending on state salaries high in order to keep state employees with mortgages in the black and the trickle down effect of their spending to keep the economic stimulus going. The drug addict analogy is an appropriate one for the Irish economy. So, it is clear the state re-inflated the property bubble to help NAMA and many of the young people who are struggling to pay the rent are really paying the bailout bill of the very landlords who are ripping them off.

......and if course you have links and some kind of objective evidence to back this up?

PopePalpatine

realitykeeper wrote: »

I`ll stop you there. One must be patient. Have you ever heard of the marshmallow test? Stamping the foot and demanding instant gratification is understandable in two year olds. Grown ups ought to be mature enough to make better decisions.

How did wondering how you can pay your bills, rent/mortgage and keep yourself from starving to death suddenly become bratty behaviour?

As half the people in this thread have suggested already, why don't you subject yourself to this economic experiment? Oh that's right, you want to keep a roof over your head and starvation at bay.