The urgent need to reduce the cost of labour in Ireland.

Owryan

realitykeeper wrote: »

I`ll stop you there. One must be patient. Have you ever heard of the marshmallow test? Stamping the foot and demanding instant gratification is understandable in two year olds. Grown ups ought to be mature enough to make better decisions.

But but but you want us to take a pay cut now, then wait till prices drop to make, i dunno, buying food affordable?

You're the one demanding we punish people because they may have bought an expensive house

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

......and if course you have links and some kind of objective evidence to back this up?

Yes. It was actually a NAMA scheme.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nama-in-plan-to-kickstart-property-market-26755801.html

Owryan

Think i have it worked out. Some people will take 50% pay cuts, while others such as doctors, nurses, Gardai, those pesky workers who work to better society will work for free. Some lucky people, including the op will get to keep their high wages.

To help people buy a house we will simply evict other home owners.

Because some of us will be on low wages prices will fall, eventually. Those who don't starve to death while waiting will get to benefit from wage rises and low prices

And there is more. Because we are now a low cost economy we will become a major producer of goods, so long as we don't need to import oil, gas, steel or other resources.............

But with less money/income there will be less tax to go into the public coffers. Foreign investors will likely be attracted by the low pay but might be scared away by a half starved workforce.

So how will the government pay for the public services, oh wait, sure they will be working for free or with voluntary agencies that rely on donations.

When the hyperinflation, recession, economic disaster, Zombie apocalypse hits, due any year now apparently, we will be grand

Have to admit, I'm not seeing any flaws, wonder why enda hasn't copped onto this yet

Donal55

Owryan wrote: »

Think i have it worked out. Some people will take 50% pay cuts, while others such as doctors, nurses, Gardai, those pesky workers who work to better society will work for free. Some lucky people, including the op will get to keep their high wages.

To help people buy a house we will simply evict other home owners.

Because some of us will be on low wages prices will fall, eventually. Those who don't starve to death while waiting will get to benefit from wage rises and low prices

And there is more. Because we are now a low cost economy we will become a major producer of goods, so long as we don't need to import oil, gas, steel or other resources.............

But with less money/income there will be less tax to go into the public coffers. Foreign investors will likely be attracted by the low pay but might be scared away by a half starved workforce.

So how will the government pay for the public services, oh wait, sure they will be working for free or with voluntary agencies that rely on donations.

When the hyperinflation, recession, economic disaster, Zombie apocalypse hits, due any year now apparently, we will be grand

Have to admit, I'm not seeing any flaws, wonder why enda hasn't copped onto this yet

That's the OP version . It does differ slightly from one of the tenets of economics however:
Rational behaviour is a key assumption used in the study of economics and the choices that people make in pursuit of satisfaction. It builds on the basic premise that people, given the choice, would rather have more than less, that they would rather be better off than worse off.

realitykeeper

Owryan wrote: »

But but but you want us to take a pay cut now, then wait till prices drop to make, i dunno, buying food affordable?

You're the one demanding we punish people because they may have bought an expensive house

That would be better than what is happening now. Punishing people who did not buy an expensive house.

If things become expensive, people will just have to keep a stiff upper lip. They could cut out the caviar and try some pigs head for a while. It would be good for them.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes. It was actually a NAMA scheme.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nama-in-plan-to-kickstart-property-market-26755801.html

......except you said it was the government........

realitykeeper wrote: »

You asked how the government re-inflated property prices. Here`s how:

Before the housing crash bottomed out, the government put tranches of property on the market with a guarantee to compensate buyers if the properties fell in value by more that 20%.......

.....so where's the evidence the government directed or influenced NAMA in their commercial decision in this regard?

Jawgap

Owryan wrote: »

Think i have it worked out. Some people will take 50% pay cuts, while others such as doctors, nurses, Gardai, those pesky workers who work to better society will work for free. Some lucky people, including the op will get to keep their high wages.

To help people buy a house we will simply evict other home owners.

Because some of us will be on low wages prices will fall, eventually. Those who don't starve to death while waiting will get to benefit from wage rises and low prices

And there is more. Because we are now a low cost economy we will become a major producer of goods, so long as we don't need to import oil, gas, steel or other resources.............

But with less money/income there will be less tax to go into the public coffers. Foreign investors will likely be attracted by the low pay but might be scared away by a half starved workforce.

So how will the government pay for the public services, oh wait, sure they will be working for free or with voluntary agencies that rely on donations.

When the hyperinflation, recession, economic disaster, Zombie apocalypse hits, due any year now apparently, we will be grand

Have to admit, I'm not seeing any flaws, wonder why enda hasn't copped onto this yet

In addition to the above, I presume we'll also be banning people from leaving the country for fear anyone with half a brain cell will up and leave to work in another country?

In fact, add in a secretive nuclear weapons programme and once we have a leader with a penchant for political assassination using nerve agents and we'll have a great little country

weisses

realitykeeper wrote: »

Lets say the worker cleaning the toilet gets the minimum wage. Meanwhile in Kenya another worker is doing exactly the same work at 1% of the cost. This sort of thing makes Ireland less competitive.

Wait what .............................. I mean .......huh ... Seriously is this economics ?

Donal55

weisses wrote: »

Wait what .............................. I mean .......huh ... Seriously is this economics ?

The invisible hand......



......or mop.

Jawgap

weisses wrote: »

Wait what .............................. I mean .......huh ... Seriously is this economics ?

Nope......it's "reality"

El_Duderino 09

realitykeeper wrote:

If things become expensive, people will just have to keep a stiff upper lip. They could cut out the caviar and try some pigs head for a while. It would be good for them.

The people on minimum wage and factory workers need to reduce their caviar consumption? This is a very strange concept.

This thread is the result of the OP asking 'what would benefit me? Well if everyone else took a pay cut, then eventually prices would drop and even if my pay reduces a little, I'd be relatively richer. I need to tell people about this great idea, I'll start a thread on boards'.

Timberrrrrrrr

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The people on minimum wage and factory workers need to reduce their caviar consumption? This is a very strange concept.

This thread is the result of the OP asking 'what would benefit me? Well if everyone else took a pay cut, then eventually prices would drop and even if my pay reduces a little, I'd be relatively richer. I need to tell people about this great idea, I'll start a thread on boards'.

Anyone with even a passing familiarity with ops past posting/threads will know he has a very poor grasp on world economics, he has been predicting a depression/end of capitalism for quite a few years now but he's "positive" it will definitely maybe could probably happen sometime this year.

El_Duderino 09

realitykeeper wrote:

Lets say the worker cleaning the toilet gets the minimum wage. Meanwhile in Kenya another worker is doing exactly the same work at 1% of the cost. This sort of thing makes Ireland less competitive. But I am really talking about factory floor productive jobs. Again, Ireland cannot compete because of the minimum wage.

Ah that could be said of any group of workers, in any sector of any industry in any county. Why only focus on minimum wage? Why not your own industry?

realitykeeper wrote:

If the Irish did work low paid jobs ourselves, immigrants would be fewer in number but much more qualified which is what we want. Instead the best of the Irish are leaving and the least qualified of the immigrants are coming.

You want people with degrees and things working for a fiver an hour on factory floors, to help the economy. Help the economy for who?

I'm assuming your job would be immune to falling below the minimum wage - no need to ask, of course your wage would be safe. This thread wouldn't exist if you thought your wage could colapse.

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

......except you said it was the government........


.....so where's the evidence the government directed or influenced NAMA in their commercial decision in this regard?

NAMA was the governments creation. If you build a Frankenstein (with taxpayers money) you have to take responsibility for what it does.

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

In addition to the above, I presume we'll also be banning people from leaving the country for fear anyone with half a brain cell will up and leave to work in another country?

In fact, add in a secretive nuclear weapons programme and once we have a leader with a penchant for political assassination using nerve agents and we'll have a great little country

You have summed up my concerns very nicely.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

NAMA was the governments creation. If you build a Frankenstein (with taxpayers money) you have to take responsibility for what it does.

Actually, Frankenstein was the doctor, his creation had no name. It's something that escapes most people.

.....and given NAMA was created by an Act of the Oireacthtas, it's hardly a government creation is it? It's a creation of the legislature, no?

Or do you think that the government have sabotaged the will of the legislature which included the following provision in the Act that guaranteed their independence......

..NAMA is independent in the performance of its functions under this Act.

realitykeeper

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The people on minimum wage and factory workers need to reduce their caviar consumption? This is a very strange concept.

This thread is the result of the OP asking 'what would benefit me? Well if everyone else took a pay cut, then eventually prices would drop and even if my pay reduces a little, I'd be relatively richer. I need to tell people about this great idea, I'll start a thread on boards'.

Not at all. I think of the general good. You might be just thinking about yourself. If however, you combine a little foresight with concern for other people, you will see where the country is going and why low pay must happen urgently.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

You have summed up my concerns very nicely.

......and who do you suppose is going to stop people leaving the country?

The now poorly paid public servants......or will we be buying in security contractors from abroad, presumably paying through the nose for the privilege too?

PopePalpatine

"Concern for other people" he says, totally unaware of how that contradicts calling for their wages to be slashed below subsistence levels.

Or is this some mad Catholic dogma, like Mother Teresa revelling in the pain of the diseased because it brings them closer to God?

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

Not at all. I think of the general good. You might be just thinking about yourself. If however, you combine a little foresight with concern for other people, you will see where the country is going and why low pay must happen urgently.

The country is far from perfect, but it seems to be going just fine......increasing employment, peace in the North, increasing life expectancy......and for once even the rugby and football teams are doing well at the same time.

Ah, you'll have your naysayers, but to quote Brian Friel, some people are not happy unless they're miserable

realitykeeper

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah that could be said of any group of workers, in any sector of any industry in any county. Why only focus on minimum wage? Why not your own industry?



You want people with degrees and things working for a fiver an hour on factory floors, to help the economy. Help the economy for who?

I'm assuming your job would be immune to falling below the minimum wage - no need to ask, of course your wage would be safe. This thread wouldn't exist if you thought your wage could colapse.

You must stop this obsession with me. I am only thinking of the common good. As for suitably qualified migrants, they can always go where their skills are in demand, be that Ireland or anywhere else.

Jawgap

Insofar as this thread has anything to do with politics, should it not really be in the Cafe?

It really takes a surreal turn using the existence of waste smuggling to justify subsistence wages and the introduction of totalitarian rule and a command economy.......

......I'm not saying it escalated quickly, but it escalated quickly

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually, Frankenstein was the doctor, his creation had no name. It's something that escapes most people.

.....and given NAMA was created by an Act of the Oireacthtas, it's hardly a government creation is it? It's a creation of the legislature, no?

Or do you think that the government have sabotaged the will of the legislature which included the following provision in the Act that guaranteed their independence......

..NAMA is independent in the performance of its functions under this Act.

Frankenstein`s monster was called "Frankenstein`s monster" but you are correct, I should have said Frankenstein`s monster.

The Oireachtas or parliament passed the act which like any other act, was voted through by the majority of TDs who occupied the government side of the house.

Owryan

Jawgap wrote: »

The country is far from perfect, but it seems to be going just fine......increasing employment, peace in the North, increasing life expectancy......and for once even the rugby and football teams are doing well at the same time.

Ah, you'll have your naysayers, but to quote Brian Friel, some people are not happy unless they're miserable

Fake news!!!!!!!!!!! Well to doomsayers like (alt)realitykeeper

con___manx1

I worked in a recycling centre when I was in college. The recycable material was sold on so the recycling centres pay for them selves really. Maybe the cost of waste removal should be increased substantiolly so people are forced to use these facility's that are free. Any town without a free recycling facility should be provided with one by the government.

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

The country is far from perfect, but it seems to be going just fine......increasing employment, peace in the North, increasing life expectancy......and for once even the rugby and football teams are doing well at the same time.

Ah, you'll have your naysayers, but to quote Brian Friel, some people are not happy unless they're miserable

Employment does tend to increase in a bubble economy. Most of those trickle down jobs are not great though. There is nothing sustainable about the Irish economy. An economy must be allowed to grow organically from it`s roots.

QE money, bailouts, etc have set the country up for disaster. I apologize in advance for failing to convince you.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

Frankenstein`s monster was called "Frankenstein`s monster" but you are correct, I should have said Frankenstein`s monster.

The Oireachtas or parliament passed the act which like any other act, was voted through by the majority of TDs who occupied the government side of the house.

Yes, that doesn't make it a government creation, does it? Simply because the parties of government voted it through?

And even if it does, it's pretty clear they are independent of the government so do you have any evidence, as per your original suggestion, that the government placed the property on the market, do you have any evidence, or is it just your opinion?

realitykeeper

con___manx1 wrote: »

Any town without a free recycling facility should be provided with one by the government.

In a low wage environment, there would be no need for the government to provide it. The private sector would do everything.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

Employment does tend to increase in a bubble economy. Most of those trickle down jobs are not great though. There is nothing sustainable about the Irish economy. An economy must be allowed to grow organically from it`s roots.

QE money, bailouts, etc have set the country up for disaster. I apologize in advance for failing to convince you.

What evidence is there that we're in a "bubble economy" - I agree there's evidence of a bubble in some asset classes, but a bubble economy?

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, that doesn't make it a government creation, does it? Simply because the parties of government voted it through?

And even if it does, it's pretty clear they are independent of the government so do you have any evidence, as per your original suggestion, that the government placed the property on the market, do you have any evidence, or is it just your opinion?

Most of the opposition either abstained or opposed it. NAMA was a government creation. If one of googles autonomous cars is involved in an accident, google cannot say "Oh, it was autonomous, nothing to do with us." Gotta take responsibility mate.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

Most of the opposition either abstained or opposed it. NAMA was a government creation. If one of googles autonomous cars is involved in an accident, google cannot say "Oh, it was autonomous, nothing to do with us." Gotta take responsibility mate.

So that's a 'no' then?

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, that doesn't make it a government creation, does it? Simply because the parties of government voted it through?

And even if it does, it's pretty clear they are independent of the government so do you have any evidence, as per your original suggestion, that the government placed the property on the market, do you have any evidence, or is it just your opinion?

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

What evidence is there that we're in a "bubble economy" - I agree there's evidence of a bubble in some asset classes, but a bubble economy?

There is the debt and the deficit for starters. Builders don`t want to build without a subsidy. There is the fiat currency we are using. There are systemic risks, e.g. Brexit etc,etc, etc.

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

So that's a 'no' then?

Au contraire, it is a decisive "yes".

Jawgap wrote: »

Most of the opposition either abstained or opposed it. NAMA was a government creation. If one of googles autonomous cars is involved in an accident, google cannot say "Oh, it was autonomous, nothing to do with us."

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

There is the debt and the deficit for starters. Builders don`t want to build without a subsidy. There is the fiat currency we are using. There are systemic risks, e.g. Brexit etc,etc, etc.

Yes, but it's the rate of price acceleration that is indicative of an asset bubble, not the spot price......so I'll ask again, what evidence is there that we're experiencing a bubble economy?

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

Au contraire, it is a decisive "yes".

Cool.

Could you post up a link to the evidence that shows "as per your original suggestion, that the government placed the property on the market"

Let's keep it simple to start with.....who owned the property? The government or someone else......and if it was someone else, what mechanism did the government use to put property they didn't own up for sale?

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, but it's the rate of price acceleration that is indicative of an asset bubble, not the spot price......so I'll ask again, what evidence is there that we're experiencing a bubble economy?

It is the rate of price inflation relative to the underlying fundamentals. Those fundamentals include: the debt, the deficit, the fiat currency, the low ECB interest rate which cannot be reduced if a recession hits, the destabilizing world economy and geopolitical risks, etc.

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

Cool.

Could you post up a link to the evidence that shows "as per your original suggestion, that the government placed the property on the market"

Let's keep it simple to start with.....who owned the property? The government or someone else......and if it was someone else, what mechanism did the government use to put property they didn't own up for sale?

The government made NAMA. NAMA did the deed.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-26755801.html

See? Frankenstein`s monster.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

It is the rate of price inflation relative to the underlying fundamentals. Those fundamentals include: the debt, the deficit, the fiat currency, the low ECB interest rate which cannot be reduced if a recession hits, the destabilizing world economy and geopolitical risks, etc.

Ok, then, what's the rate of price inflation? Can you publish a link to the data please?

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

The government made NAMA. NAMA did the deed.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-26755801.html

See? Frankenstein`s monster.

Ok, where's the evidence the government "made" NAMA sell the property?

And do you concede that NAMA are not the government?

Yourself isit

realitykeeper wrote: »

Employment does tend to increase in a bubble economy. Most of those trickle down jobs are not great though. There is nothing sustainable about the Irish economy. An economy must be allowed to grow organically from it`s roots.

QE money, bailouts, etc have set the country up for disaster. I apologize in advance for failing to convince you.

We tried organically. Under Dev.

QE isn't an irish thing. The bailouts have worked although the burden is too high on middle income groups.

Wanderer78

Yourself isit wrote: »

The bailouts have worked although the burden is too high on middle income groups.

id argue that they havent worked by using the exact same statement and if bail ins become the norm in the next financial crash, i think the same people will have enough

relax carry on

relax carry on wrote: »

I have to ask you Reality keeper, are you an economist? I've seen your name on countless threads over the years and can't recall ever seeing anyone ever agree with your predictions or odd visions for society that seem to involve destroying what exists now to benefit yourself. It's fascinating.
Also what political party do you think would back your proposals? Have you ever spoken with a political representative about them?

Don't know how to bump this but some sort of answer would be nice. You seem to be the only one supporting your predictions/views/theories? I know practically nothing about economics despite having sat through some modules lately as part of continuous development through work and I can't make any sense of whatever it is you want apart from devolving society into some sort of private enterprise where you succeed but all others fail/die/are surplus to requirements?

Wanderer78

relax carry on wrote: »

Don't know how to bump this but some sort of answer would be nice. You seem to be the only one supporting your predictions/views/theories? I know practically nothing about economics despite having sat through some modules lately as part of continuous development through work and I can't make any sense of whatever it is you want apart from devolving society into some sort of private enterprise where you succeed but all others fail/die/are surplus to requirements?

i wouldnt take much heed to what you were told in economics class, a lot of it is pure ****e

relax carry on

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i wouldnt take much heed to what you were told in economics class, a lot of it is pure ****e

Yeah, even the lecturer who has a PhD admitted it's all theoretical models that everyone argues over. The entire class pretty much came to same conclusion that it's all a load of pants. Hence the question to reality keeper. It may have been pants but I'm not exactly sure where he or she is going with whatever this is.

Wanderer78

relax carry on wrote: »

Yeah, even the lecture who has a PhD admitted it's all theoretical models that everyone argues over. The entire class pretty much came to same conclusion that it's all a load of pants. Hence the question to reality keeper. It may have been pants but I'm not exactly sure where he or she is going with whatever this is.

conventional economic theories such as neoclassical theory are currently being shredded to pieces, i to would like some clarification from the op though.

Sam Russell

To the OP:

Have a read of this thread.

It is discussing the exact opposite of your idea. Do not reduce minimum wage, but give everyone a basic income without having to work for it.

When you have read it from the start to finish, do come back and exlain the two threads and how they differ.

I am not sure myself which is the dafter.

con___manx1

realitykeeper wrote: »

In a low wage environment, there would be no need for the government to provide it. The private sector would do everything.

Yes but with the cost of living at the moment there cannot be a low wage enviroment in this country.
How will people pay for rent food and bills ? Especially in dublin.
The minium wage will go up not down with the way things are going.
Recycling centres would be cheaper in the long run and much better for the enviroment.
I recycle on a weekly basis free and only have to put the bin out every 3 or 4 weeks. If everyone did the same they would save money and ease the waste problem in this country.

Owryan

Sam Russell wrote: »

To the OP:

Have a read of this thread.

It is discussing the exact opposite of your idea. Do not reduce minimum wage, but give everyone a basic income without having to work for it.

When you have read it from the start to finish, do come back and exlain the two threads and how they differ.

I am not sure myself which is the dafter.

The idea of a basic income has merit. The problem is it needs to be set below the current sw rates to "encourage" people out to work. The esri example was a basic income of 180 PW with child increases. Almost all welfare payments would cease. But it had a tax rate in excess of 55% on all income over the 180. A big hurdle to overcome. The Cori (i think) model was a lower payment and a 47% tax rate.

Other aspects would be been the ending of the medical card scheme, rent supports and children's allowance. Try sell all that at election time!!

The problem is they require everyone to contribute to the tax intake and we know there are some groups who feel they are entitled without having to contribute.

Much like the op's ramblings I don't think any government is going to try implement it.

El_Duderino 09

realitykeeper wrote:

Not at all. I think of the general good. You might be just thinking about yourself. If however, you combine a little foresight with concern for other people, you will see where the country is going and why low pay must happen urgently.

People on minimum wage are by definition the lowest paid people in the country. If you want to reduce costs AND have any actual concern for anyone in the country, it should be easy to see that cutting those people's pay is not ideal. If pay is too high, then look at who's paid the most and see if you can make savings.

If you want to start by making the poor, poorer rather than even look at making the rich, less rich, then your self preservation is obvious.

As I keep saying, this thread is about how other people should accept lower pay as long as the OP is among the last to do likewise.

El_Duderino 09

realitykeeper wrote:

You must stop this obsession with me. I am only thinking of the common good.

Ha! The common good - beginning with your own good.

You could prove me wrong if you are in either if the group's who's wages you want to slash (minimum wage and civil servants)