The urgent need to reduce the cost of labour in Ireland.

Wanderer78

realitykeeper wrote: »

While I am not a fan of labels, I agree the markets are heading for catastrophe but that is because of political interference in natural market forces. The credit crunch of 2008 should have been allowed to happen without bailouts of any kind. Political interference guarantees a repeat crisis but on a far larger scale.

again, you re deluded that the market is some sort of natural thing and/or is governed by natural forces, its not, its heavily manipulated and modeled on fundamentally flawed theories such as neoclassical theory. i will agree that our governments have created a right mess of things but they have been indoctrinated with all this bull**** economic theory for decades, i dont think they truly understand whats going on within these complex systems, but in saying that, im not sure anybody really does. i think we may have outsmarted ourselves by creating extremely complex economic systems, in which we truly dont understand whats going on within them.

i personally believe the market is a utopian view of reality or how our economies work which if left to its own devices, will actually lead to the demise of our planet and species. the only problem is, nobody really knows what to do next. sadly i suspect we ll end up back in a major war which could very well be the end of our species.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

If you did not want Hayek mentioned, why did you bring him up in the first place?

I did not say "no one" understood. I said it was not understood generally.

Again, you're gas.

I've no problem with Hayek, if I thought you were up to discussing him, I'd discuss him with you.....

.....and again with the semantic revisionism

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

No, not at all. I think everyone who reads the thread will see the truth if the matter......how you said economics was not understood (at a time when 2 of the great heavyweights were active).....then when that was pointed out......you suddenly deputised Hayek into your argument (after I mentioned him)......and now you seem to have reversed yourself......that economics can, in fact be understood......how else can you conclusively state Hayek was right??

You are, as they would say, a gas man

If you read the thread again you will see every point raised has been answered by me and ignored by you.

blanch152

realitykeeper wrote: »

Fairness has nothing to do with it. If you lifted weights in the gym all day, that is hard work but nobody is going to pay you to do that. Your work must be worth something to the buyer. Private sector employers who pay above the minimum wage, do so because they prize the value of the employees work higher than the minimum price they are required to pay.

Public sector people are not living in the real world where market competition dictates the value of work. It should therefore be assumed their work is worthless, after all, why else would they be afraid of competition.

How do you explain the shortage of nurses then?

If their work is essentially worthless, then they could be paid minimum wage, yet at their current wages, far above minimum wage, there is a shortage.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

If you read the thread again you will see every point raised has been answered by me and ignored by you.

Well to be honest, it's difficult to rebut nonsense......especially of the type where you claim anything not mentioned as proof positive that you were correct.....

.....as I said you're like the guy at the end of the bar who says he was right about Barcelona winning the other night because he never said they were going to lose

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

Again, you're gas.

I've no problem with Hayek, if I thought you were up to discussing him, I'd discuss him with you.....

.....and again with the semantic revisionism

I suspect you are being deliberately obtuse.

realitykeeper

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, you re deluded that the market is some sort of natural thing and/or is governed by natural forces, its not, its heavily manipulated ...

Without the manipulation market forces are as natural as the wind and tides. The markets are indeed manipulated but that is not the markets fault, it is the fault of the manipulators.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

I suspect you are being deliberately obtuse.

Well now, it wouldn't be the first time you were wrong.

blanch152

realitykeeper wrote: »

Without the manipulation market forces are as natural as the wind and tides. The markets are indeed manipulated but that is not the markets fault, it is the fault of the manipulators.

A good analogy that market forces are as natural as the wind and tides, however, the ordinary person needs protection from the wind and tides, when they are wild. Similarly, we need government intervention to protect us from the excesses of market forces. The level of that intervention will depend on the extent that the wind and tides are out of control.

Wanderer78

realitykeeper wrote: »

Without the manipulation market forces are as natural as the wind and tides.

crock of ****, free market economics is a bust. left to its own devices, it creates predatory, parasitic and destructive systems and industries such as a large portion of the financial sector. total train wreck. you need to walk away from neoclassical theory and take up some other hobbies

realitykeeper

blanch152 wrote: »

How do you explain the shortage of nurses then?

If their work is essentially worthless, then they could be paid minimum wage, yet at their current wages, far above minimum wage, there is a shortage.

If the health service were entirely private, there would be too many nurses because the nurses would a) work and b) be used intelligently

realitykeeper

Jawgap wrote: »

Well to be honest, it's difficult to rebut nonsense......especially of the type where you claim anything not mentioned as proof positive that you were correct.....

.....as I said you're like the guy at the end of the bar who says he was right about Barcelona winning the other night because he never said they were going to lose

Insults are also unbecoming.

Wanderer78

realitykeeper wrote: »

If the health service were entirely private, there would be too many nurses because the nurses would a) work and b) be used intelligently

oh ffs, again, neoliberalism is also a bust! this is very well researched and documented

Donal55

realitykeeper wrote: »

If the health service were entirely private, there would be too many nurses because the nurses would a) work and b) be used intelligently

If me aunt had balls she'd be me uncle.

realitykeeper

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh ffs, again, neoliberalism is also a bust! this is very well researched and documented

As mentioned already, I am not a fan of labels. Common sense is my forte.

Wanderer78

realitykeeper wrote: »

As mentioned already, I am not a fan of labels. Common sense is my forte.

what are you on about? common sense? what?

oscarBravo

realitykeeper wrote: »

Public sector people are not living in the real world where market competition dictates the value of work. It should therefore be assumed their work is worthless, after all, why else would they be afraid of competition.

Oh, come on. Even by your impressive standards, this is incredibly specious reasoning. There are at least three logical fallacies in that short paragraph, and probably more.

realitykeeper

Wanderer78 wrote: »

crock of ****, free market economics is a bust. left to its own devices, it creates predatory, parasitic and destructive systems and industries such as a large portion of the financial sector. total train wreck. you need to walk away from neoclassical theory and take up some other hobbies

Of course, market economics is bust but that is because it is no longer free. If the markets were free to solve the problems in the economy the "predatory, parasitic and destructive systems" you mention would have been cleansed by not bailing out anyone back in 2008, i.e. by market forces.

The consequences of government interference guarantees the "predatory, parasitic and destructive systems" continue until they kill the host.

Jawgap

realitykeeper wrote: »

Of course, market economics is bust but that is because it is no longer free. If the markets were free to solve the problems in the economy the "predatory, parasitic and destructive systems" you mention would have been cleansed by not bailing out anyone back in 2008.

The consequences of government interference guarantees the "predatory, parasitic and destructive systems" continue until they kill the host.

No longer free?

When/where was the market ever free?

Wanderer78

realitykeeper wrote: »

Of course, market economics is bust but that is because it is no longer free. If the markets were free to solve the problems in the economy the "predatory, parasitic and destructive systems" you mention would have been cleansed by not bailing out anyone back in 2008.

The consequences of government interference guarantees the "predatory, parasitic and destructive systems" continue until they kill the host.

so who kills the host and/or how do we do that?

this isnt as clear cut as you think, these questions are baffling the finest minds of today

ancapailldorcha

Realitykeeper will be taking a week off.

ancapailldorcha

Donal55 wrote: »

If me aunt had balls she'd be me uncle.

Cut this out please.

Geuze

I reject the contention that wages are too high in Ireland.

Many costs are too high, yes, but not wages.

The following are too high:

land costs
commercial rents
residential rents in Dublin
medical costs
legal costs
energy costs
insurance costs

Most of the reasons these costs are too high are not related to wages, but are due to the following:

rent-seeking behaviour
cartels
excessive profits
lack of competition

Indeed, if we tacked these issues, and reduced the price level by 10%-20%, wage growth could fall.

Widdershins

The answer is to educate people on recycling and not being lazy, selfish people, or think of a way to prevent it from happening. Maybe separate, clear bins for each type of recyclable material and a visual inspection, anything that looks contaminated gets left behind and the consumer has to fix it before it will be taken.

The cost of labour's low enough as it is, without complaining you can't get dogsbodies to work for even less.

Wanderer78

Widdershins wrote: »

The answer is to educate people on recycling and not being lazy, selfish people, or think of a way to prevent it from happening. Maybe separate, clear bins for each type of recyclable material and a visual inspection, anything that looks contaminated gets left behind and the consumer has to fix it before it will be taken.

The cost of labour's low enough as it is, without complaining you can't get dogsbodies to work for even less.

id argue the beginning of the process, in relation to our waste issues, is where a major part of the problem is. a lot of the 'demand' that others allude to is actually largely due to manipulation which ultimately comes from the advertisement and marketing industries. the producers and manufacturers of our goods and materials need to be included in our systems when dealing with our waste. why do we continually allow materials, some of which are extremely harmful to our environment, be created in the first place? even 100% recyclable, environmentally friendly materials have what i call 'toxic cost'! theres something fundamentally wrong with these models and systems.

Widdershins

Wanderer78 wrote: »

id argue the beginning of the process, in relation to our waste issues, is where a major part of the problem is. a lot of the 'demand' that others allude to is actually largely due to manipulation which ultimately comes from the advertisement and marketing industries. the producers and manufacturers of our goods and materials need to be included in our systems when dealing with our waste. why do we continually allow materials, some of which are extremely harmful to our environment, be created in the first place? even 100% recyclable, environmentally friendly materials have what i call 'toxic cost'! theres something fundamentally wrong with these models and systems.

YES! +1000

blanch152

Geuze wrote: »

I reject the contention that wages are too high in Ireland.

Many costs are too high, yes, but not wages.

The following are too high:

land costs
commercial rents
residential rents in Dublin
medical costs
legal costs
energy costs
insurance costs

Most of the reasons these costs are too high are not related to wages, but are due to the following:

rent-seeking behaviour
cartels
excessive profits
lack of competition

Indeed, if we tacked these issues, and reduced the price level by 10%-20%, wage growth could fall.

One of the biggest failures of the FF/Green government and then the FG/Labour government was to take on the cartels in the legal area and others such as pharmacy, medical etc. Smiles at least have tackled the dentistry issue.

El_Duderino 09

realitykeeper wrote:

Fairness has nothing to do with it. If you lifted weights in the gym all day, that is hard work but nobody is going to pay you to do that. Your work must be worth something to the buyer. Private sector employers who pay above the minimum wage, do so because they prize the value of the employees work higher than the minimum price they are required to pay.

Public sector people are not living in the real world where market competition dictates the value of work. It should therefore be assumed their work is worthless, after all, why else would they be afraid of competition.

Even if I assumed you're serious about the biggest recession of all , then why are you exclusively focused on minimum wage and public sector? Why nobody else?

Has this massive economic collapse got boring go benefit from the wealthiest reducing their wages? Oh no I forgot, you're part of that group so you can't provide consider their wages until everyone else has taken a pay cut.

This thread is a joke. The OP thinks hey have come up with a terribly creative solution to something by using only the most basic measure - reduce the wages if he poorest. It's brainless and boring. If it was legitimately about averting a major crisis, it would involve some kind of interesting solution - but it doesn't

Sam Russell

realitykeeper wrote: »

Public sector people are not living in the real world where market competition dictates the value of work. It should therefore be assumed their work is worthless, after all, why else would they be afraid of competition.

This point of view is so erroneous as to be rubbish.

Let us take a few examples of highly paid public servants whose work is of value.

Judges - should they be on minimum wages? Perhaps they could supplement their low wage by doing a bit of work on the side, maybe charge a bit extra for an acquittal..

How about the AG - should she be on minimum wages? Perhaps she might work a bit harder for a few more crusts - give a few extra opinions to the Government.

How about the Gardai? Maybe they could issue a few more fines.

And you mention nurses - why should they be paid less? I'm sure if you are getting an injection, you would not want a minimum wage nurse administering it - particularly if she knew YOU were intent on reducing her wage.

Most public servants do valuable work, but there are exceptions as in all works of life. Do you call those who work for the state owned banks (the one we bailed out for €60 billion) as public servants? The ones who are paid at the highest rate because they are worth it - maybe they are the ones that should be on minimum wage.

Your are attacking the wrong end of the wage sector - it is the high paid that need to take a pay cut.

tiger55

Deleted User wrote: »

Urgent need to reduce the cost of living in Ireland

Fixed that for you

Iexit?

Geuze

realitykeeper wrote: »

Public sector people are not living in the real world where market competition dictates the value of work. It should therefore be assumed their work is worthless, after all, why else would they be afraid of competition.

Many PS earn less than their private sector equivalents.

hurler32

Geuze wrote: »

Many PS earn less than their private sector equivalents.

Are you for real??
Gold plated pensions??...Zero Performance Management??...The Irish public sector is the Fattest & least productive Public Sector in the EU if not the world??:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

blanch152

Geuze wrote: »

Many PS earn less than their private sector equivalents.

hurler32 wrote: »

Are you for real??
Gold plated pensions??...Zero Performance Management??...The Irish public sector is the Fattest & least productive Public Sector in the EU if not the world??:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

There is an element of truth in both of your posts.

At senior levels, earnings in the public sector are far below their private sector counterparts in Ireland.

However, at grades like teacher, clerical officer, nurse, the earning are among the highest in the EU.

ancapailldorcha

hurler32 wrote: »

Are you for real??
Gold plated pensions??...Zero Performance Management??...The Irish public sector is the Fattest & least productive Public Sector in the EU if not the world??:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

This sort of overly hyperbolic posting is not suitable for this forum. Please read the charter before posting again.

BlinkingLights

The issues with costs in Ireland are mostly about high costs of property, insurance and also things like energy and transport.

Some of it is down to our location and population density, more of it is down to mildly corrupt politics that is unwilling to tackle vested interests and has allowed various cartels to emerge and go totally unchallenged or that won't move to do anything meaningful about cost of property.

High prices here tend to be about things like high insurance premia, high energy costs and mostly high property costs. Think about it: upward only rental agreements, drip feeding off land to the market, a rental crisis where the government has done very little to drive increase of supply ...

We also aren't really using the big EU single market the way we should be and aren't always benefiting from more competitive suppliers. Various lock ins to supply chains, bring treated as a UK region and having currency volatility despite being in the Euro, odd and usually totally unnecessary local technical standards around things like building materials, cars, electric fittings etc all drive our costs up.

Suryavarman

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh ffs, again, neoliberalism is also a bust! this is very well researched and documented

Greatest reduction in poverty and greatest period of economic stability mankind has ever seen. Yeah, it's a real failure alright :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sam Russell

Suryavarman wrote: »

Greatest reduction in poverty and greatest period of economic stability mankind has ever seen. Yeah, it's a real failure alright :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Where have you been for the last ten years?

€60 billion lost to bail out the banks, huge increase in unemployment, huge rise in emigration, zero houses built, unfinished houses bulldozed, homes being repossessed, homeless highest ever, government borrowing giving rise to €200 billion rise in deficit. Crash, crash, crash, crash.

And that is just Ireland. Look at Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy.

Some stability.

Geuze

BlinkingLights wrote: »

The issues with costs in Ireland are mostly about high costs of property, insurance and also things like energy and transport.

Some of it is down to our location and population density, more of it is down to mildly corrupt politics that is unwilling to tackle vested interests and has allowed various cartels to emerge and go totally unchallenged or that won't move to do anything meaningful about cost of property.

High prices here tend to be about things like high insurance premia, high energy costs and mostly high property costs. Think about it: upward only rental agreements, drip feeding off land to the market, a rental crisis where the government has done very little to drive increase of supply ...

We also aren't really using the big EU single market the way we should be and aren't always benefiting from more competitive suppliers. Various lock ins to supply chains, bring treated as a UK region and having currency volatility despite being in the Euro, odd and usually totally unnecessary local technical standards around things like building materials, cars, electric fittings etc all drive our costs up.

++++++ yes to all of this.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Where have you been for the last ten years?

€60 billion lost to bail out the banks, huge increase in unemployment, huge rise in emigration, zero houses built, unfinished houses bulldozed, homes being repossessed, homeless highest ever, government borrowing giving rise to €200 billion rise in deficit. Crash, crash, crash, crash.

And that is just Ireland. Look at Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy.

Some stability.

No one says it has all been good and it sure isnt at all perfect now.

But this country has improved a lot from when I was a kid despite the problems of the last few years.

Jawgap

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

No one says it has all been good and it sure isnt at all perfect now.

But this country has improved a lot from when I was a kid despite the problems of the last few years.

Absolutely +1 on this.

People are complaining because for a few years we didn't have jam and honey on our bread, forgetting there was, for the longest time, a period when the country didn't have bread!

We've never been healthier, wealthier or safer - and for our all the problems in country (it is by no means perfect), it's still a great place to live.......but the weather is still rubbish

patnor1011

While there is potential to save some money on public sector cost eliminating some unnecessary services and jobs there, OP in his crusade against public sector forgot that cutting 50% of wages of say gardai may have unintended consequences on his successful low wage driven private business idea.
Then nurses and doctors will pack up and leave so we will have to learn perhaps Filipino to be able to communicate with our new low wage nurses. Cut wages to teachers and country will be unrecognizable and dumb in just few years....

Your opening post with lamenting about what problems recycling companies face due to minimum wage is rather disturbing.
Recycling is one of the most profitable industries and companies which are in it are getting paid twice for the same thing you throw away. Not only that, with help of media and politicians they slowly but surely turned public into unpaid sorting machines only to increase their own profit. Hey, there are even talks about people being fined for putting recyclable material in waste bin as it decrease potential profit of recycling providers.

Recycling is a gold mine which keep on giving but problem is not the people, problem is that companies in order to maximize profits do not realize that instead of stick they should offer a carrot and gain more in long term. Some countries took this approach and offer cash for your sorted waste. It is a very small amount but it is still cash to be made by the most unfortunate members of society or environmentally driven people. If only they offer some change for it, they would get many times more business that they get now under threat of fines and exorbitant prices for collecting something they immediately sell.

So simply no, lowering pay 50% will not result in adequate decrease of prices and if by some miracle that will happen what is the point of doing so anyway? Our standard of living will therefore not change and our impact on global economy is virtually non existent.

Suryavarman

Sam Russell wrote: »

Where have you been for the last ten years?

€60 billion lost to bail out the banks, huge increase in unemployment, huge rise in emigration, zero houses built, unfinished houses bulldozed, homes being repossessed, homeless highest ever, government borrowing giving rise to €200 billion rise in deficit. Crash, crash, crash, crash.

And that is just Ireland. Look at Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy.

Some stability.

And yet many countries recorded their longest period of economic growth during the neoliberal period that began around 1980. It's of course important to point out that the great recession occurred during this period. It's also important to note that the response to the recession ensured that the recession didn't turn into a depression. The response was a decidedly neoliberal one with incredibly aggressive monetary policy leading the charge for instance.

chicorytip

The debacle at An Post is a prime example of excessive labour costs brought about by overstaffing.

hurler32

Maybe if those at the top of the Capitalist food chain were content to be millionaires instead of Billionaires those at the bottom could earn a reasonable wage to look after themselves ....
The Public service sector is a different manner with a lot of deadwood staff in their 40s and 50s earning 60-80,000 whilst a young recruit on 30,000 does three times the work of the deadwood person.Bottom line those at the bottom are been rode whilst those at the top in many cases are a hugely unproductive .