Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2016/2017

corwill

LiamoSail wrote: »

I was addressing the point you made about VVD having only played a season and a half in the PL. In isolation it looked as if you were ignoring his career up to that point, though perhaps having not read the thread I'm missing the context

Fair enough, what I had in mind was the last time we bought a CB from Southampton on the back of a good season in the PL, having paid no regard to his prior comic stylings for Lyon over a longer period. It just seems like the focus for identifying transfer targets is terribly narrow.

I've liked what I've seen if Van Djik, but I'll continue to be disappointed with our scouting if the club is unaware of someone else at his level outside the PL bubble for half the price or less.

LiamoSail

corwill wrote: »

Fair enough, what I had in mind was the last time we bought a CB from Southampton on the back of a good season in the PL, having paid no regard to his prior comic stylings for Lyon over a longer period. It just seems like the focus for identifying transfer targets is terribly narrow.

I've liked what I've seen if Van Djik, but I'll continue to be disappointed with our scouting if the club is unaware of someone else at his level outside the PL bubble for half the price or less.

They should be but they won't. This is Liverpool, so you'd be mad to expect quality signings at a decent price.

When Liverpool sign a player, I really don't care what the price is, once he's good enough. I'd be happy with VVD even if he cost €100m.. I know he's not worth €100m, but he'd improve the team significantly and that isn't always the case with LFC signings. Once the team is doing well I'm happy, couldn't give two ****s about how much it costs

sideswipe

Not sure about 50 mill on a CB but I just wish we had smashed up the bank last summer for Kante- I recon we'd be in with a shout of the title right now if we did.

Knex*

The big question mark for me is that Van Dijk plays with two dedicated defensive midfielders, more often than not. I think it was Corwill who mentioned it yesterday, and its a great point.

Swap Lovren back into that team, and he probably looks as good as he did before he joined us, although back then he had Wanyama who is an absolute force.

Outside of that, Southampton just don't get the same level of exposure, scrutiny and pressure that Liverpool are afforded. You couple that with our exposed manner of defending, and its certainly tough for center backs to come in and look impressive.

Positives for Van Dijk is that he's a physical specimen, which would certainly give our backline a boost. Great in the air, very strong, and he's fairly fast as well. He's also good on the ball. That probably ticks all the boxes for you'd want in a center back at the club with the way we play.

Still, I think there is a legitimate worry that we sign him for 50m and still, more or less, have the same defensive issues next year.

I actually remember watching him play in a game for the Netherlands about 18 months ago, and he was absolutely brutal. I was literally laughing at him. And he's had a few games for them when he hasn't quite looked like he did in that 1-1 draw against us a few months back, to say the least.

For me, this kind of compounds the fact that the system employed, and the players in front of him, are probably of a higher importance than just throwing insane money at Van Dijk and hoping that he can suddenly fix all our woes. Essentially, I'd take Spurs signing Wanyama for 15m, or whatever it was, than us taking Van Dijk at 50m. And ideally, we should be doing both.

We've shown a lack of ambition in the player recruitment department for a bit too long now. There seems to be a fear of having good players on the bench. Sign a first teamer, immediately sell one who may not work out type mentality. We should have the revenue streams and financial input from FSG to move on from this a bit now.

BullBlackNova

Knex. wrote: »

The big question mark for me is that Van Dijk plays with two dedicated defensive midfielders, more often than not. I think it was Corwill who mentioned it yesterday, and its a great point.

Swap Lovren back into that team, and he probably looks as good as he did before he joined us, although back then he had Wanyama who is an absolute force.

Positives for Van Dijk is that he's a physical specimen, which would certainly give our backline a boost. Great in the air, very strong, and he's fairly fast as well. He's also good on the ball. That probably ticks all the boxes for you'd want in a center back at the club with the way we play.

Still, I think there is a legitimate worry that we sign him for 50m and still, more or less, have the same defensive issues next year.

For me, this kind of compounds the fact that the system employed, and the players in front of him, are probably of a higher importance than just throwing insane money at Van Dijk and hoping that he can suddenly fix all our woes. Essentially, I'd take Spurs signing Wanyama for 15m, or whatever it was, than us taking Van Dijk at 50m. And ideally, we should be doing both.

We've shown a lack of ambition in the player recruitment department for a bit too long now. There seems to be a fear of having good players on the bench. Sign a first teamer, immediately sell one who may not work out type mentality. We should have the revenue streams and financial input from FSG to move on from this a bit now.

This nails my thoughts on it really.

VVD may turn out to be a good signing for whoever he joins but I don't think fixing our defensive woes is as simple as taking him from Southampton and dropping him into our defence.

Their whole team is set up to be strong defensively and we have seen this time and time again - every one of Lovren, Fonte, Clyne and Shaw has looked worse defensively since leaving Southampton because they don't have the same protection, organisation, etc.

Fixing our issues is not as simple as signing the right player. It probably involves several players in several positions, including midfield, a tweak in coaching and a change in our tactical setup.

Anyway, I'll genuinely be stunned if we sign him. I can see us making the first move and being outbid by Chelsea and City, or just going elsewhere.

I'll believe all this talk of record-breaking transfer spends when I see it.

brevity

I can't really get my head around this - why he is so expensive?

NukaCola

A defence minded CM isn't going to stop Lovren from making stupid decisions in play or make us defend set pieces better though which have been big issues for us. Whatever the price for CB's we need a couple of good ones. Klavan and Lovren are fine back ups but if we are to be successful their minutes have to be restricted IMO.

NukaCola

brevity wrote: »

I can't really get my head around this - why he is so expensive?

We want him and Southampton dont want to sell. Supply and demand I guess.

Boom_Bap

My view is to let the accountants in the club look after the money. If a player that we want is deemed affordable, make the offer.

VVD was a player that clubs were sniffing around but unwilling to take a gamble on. Celtic took that gamble and it payed off for them.
Southampton took the same gamble by bringing him to the EPL, it paid off as his abilities transferred very well to the EPL and he has improved as a player as well.

There are many other players that take this same route, Gini is one that springs to mind and that worked out well for us.

As far as VVD goes, do I see him as an upgrade on Lovren in all areas, yes I do.
More commanding in presence and aerial ability.
More physical.
More composed.
Better tackler.
Better reading of the line.
Plays the ball forward more instead of accross the back four.

The only 2 things that Lovren has is that he is excellent with both feet and can play left and right side of the central pairing.

brevity

NukaCola wrote: »

We want him and Southampton dont want to sell. Supply and demand I guess.

I suppose. Seems like a crazy amount of money though for a player that probably won't fit our style of play - unless Klopp buys a DM.

Boom_Bap

brevity wrote: »

I suppose. Seems like a crazy amount of money though for a player that probably won't fit our style of play - unless Klopp buys a DM.

If you have 2 central defenders that can play a high line, this reduces the need for a pure DM.
So with VVD and Matip, we would have that.
I think that is why he doesn't buy in to Sahko as being a starter for us.

54and56

brevity wrote: »

I can't really get my head around this - why he is so expensive?

Supply and demand. If others are prepared to pay £40m/£45m for him and offer same/better wages and same/better likelihood of silverware we have to outbid them if we want him. At some point the price and wages etc required to sign VVD will get to a point where our 2nd preference CB target makes more sense and we drop the VVD interest. It's the nature of wheeling and dealing.

Crash Bang Wall

BullBlackNova wrote: »

This nails my thoughts on it really.

VVD may turn out to be a good signing for whoever he joins but I don't think fixing our defensive woes is as simple as taking him from Southampton and dropping him into our defence.

Their whole team is set up to be strong defensively and we have seen this time and time again - every one of Lovren, Fonte, Clyne and Shaw has looked worse defensively since leaving Southampton because they don't have the same protection, organisation, etc.

Fixing our issues is not as simple as signing the right player. It probably involves several players in several positions, including midfield, a tweak in coaching and a change in our tactical setup.

Anyway, I'll genuinely be stunned if we sign him. I can see us making the first move and being outbid by Chelsea and City, or just going elsewhere.

I'll believe all this talk of record-breaking transfer spends when I see it.

Echo reports we will break our transfer record to sign VVD

A few hours later there is news of our new home kit

Coincidence????

SteM

sideswipe wrote: »

I just wish we had smashed up the bank last summer for Kante- I recon we'd be in with a shout of the title right now if we did.

Says every fan of every team in the top 5 not called Chelsea.

Knex*

BullBlackNova wrote: »

I'll believe all this talk of record-breaking transfer spends when I see it.

Yeah, my scepticism with regards to the club's ability in actually bringing in top tier targets is quite high.

That said, another summer with additions of the standard and impact of Mane, Matip and Wijnaldum and we'd be in pretty good shape.

Crash Bang Wall

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

Echo reports we will break our transfer record to sign VVD

A few hours later there is news of our new home kit

Coincidence????

You'd expect them to be able to come up with better than VVD though.....

slingerz

i think Klopp has to become more pragmatic tbh its more than just the right players. The approach favoured by winning teams recently has been defensively solid with a decent attack. Liverpool have gone from an amazing attack and a terrible defence to a decent attack and a terrible defence. The presence of a Kante in midfield and a strong back 5 would make all the difference. It doesnt appear that Klopp prioritises those though

internelligent

The last 3 home league games I've gone to.
Liverpool vs Palace 1-2
Liverpool vs Swansea 2-3
Liverpool vs Palace 1-2

The only one we lost at Anfield in between was Swansea again 1-3.

Can't but help feel partially responsible and for that I apologise.
At the same time I feel like I'm getting seriously shafted here! No more trips for me.

brevity

Nice piece on Ronnie Whelan:

http://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/04/26/how-ronnie-whelan-became-the-most-underrated-liverpool-star-of-all/

I'd wager a few around here are here because of him

corwill

internelligent wrote: »

The last 3 home league games I've gone to.
Liverpool vs Palace 1-2
Liverpool vs Swansea 2-3
Liverpool vs Palace 1-2

The only one we lost at Anfield in between was Swansea again 1-3.

Can't but help feel partially responsible and for that I apologise.
At the same time I feel like I'm getting seriously shafted here! No more trips for me.

Mods, can internelligent be blocked from starting match threads, please? And maybe some sort of virtual neck-bell?

BorneTobyWilde

Gerrard would be more useful than Henderson is at the moment.

BorneTobyWilde

Why would we sell one of our best players of the last 5 years for zero? A young guy like Lucas who will be in his prime for next 4 years.

chicorytip

BullBlackNova wrote:

Their whole team is set up to be strong defensively and we have seen this time and time again - every one of Lovren, Fonte, Clyne and Shaw has looked worse defensively since leaving Southampton because they don't have the same protection, organisation, etc.

There are added psychological pressures that players have to cope with when playing for an elite as opposed to a middle ranking club. You are placed under far greater scrutiny by a far more demanding and expectant fanbase where every mistake will be analysed and harshly criticised. Some just can't deal with that.

internelligent

corwill wrote: »

Mods, can internelligent be blocked from starting match threads, please? And maybe some sort of virtual neck-bell?

I will never start a match thread. ....ever.

Sappy404

brevity wrote: »

I can't really get my head around this - why he is so expensive?

He's arguably the best centre half in the league not currently playing for Tottenham.

In any case, there is currently no context for a Premier League player's price - there is simply too much of an increase in club revenues for anything we know about transfer fees to apply.

Remember the outrage when Mané cost £30m last June? By August it looked like a steal before a ball was even kicked. Pogba's world transfer record fee will be beaten more than once this summer IMO, and I'd be flabbergasted if at least half the clubs in the Premier League don't break their transfer records.

I'd even extend it to any major league in Europe if it's an English club doing the buying. Everything we know about value in the transfer market is outdated. It's best for us not to worry about the fees and just debate whether the players are right for the club IMO.

Grayditch

I think we should raid West Ham and Newcastle.

Grayditch

Grayditch wrote: »

I think we should raid West Ham and Newcastle.

Rafa? :pac:

J Mysterio

Knex. wrote: »

We've shown a lack of ambition in the player recruitment department for a bit too long now. There seems to be a fear of having good players on the bench. Sign a first teamer, immediately sell one who may not work out type mentality. We should have the revenue streams and financial input from FSG to move on from this a bit now.

100% this. We have definitely shown a lack of ambition on the transfer market for a long time.

J Mysterio

brevity wrote: »

I can't really get my head around this - why he is so expensive?

Because we are supposedly interested?

J Mysterio

Boom_Bap wrote: »

My view is to let the accountants in the club look after the money. If a player that we want is deemed affordable, make the offer.

VVD was a player that clubs were sniffing around but unwilling to take a gamble on. Celtic took that gamble and it payed off for them.
Southampton took the same gamble by bringing him to the EPL, it paid off as his abilities transferred very well to the EPL and he has improved as a player as well.

There are many other players that take this same route, Gini is one that springs to mind and that worked out well for us.

As far as VVD goes, do I see him as an upgrade on Lovren in all areas, yes I do.
More commanding in presence and aerial ability.
More physical.
More composed.
Better tackler.
Better reading of the line.
Plays the ball forward more instead of accross the back four.

The only 2 things that Lovren has is that he is excellent with both feet and can play left and right side of the central pairing.

Lovren is excellent with both feet? :pac:

J Mysterio

Boom_Bap wrote: »

If you have 2 central defenders that can play a high line, this reduces the need for a pure DM.
So with VVD and Matip, we would have that.
I think that is why he doesn't buy in to Sahko as being a starter for us.

I dont buy that argument RE: Sakho at all. What makes you think Matip is suited to a high line defence where Sakho is not?

J Mysterio

brevity wrote: »

Nice piece on Ronnie Whelan:

http://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/04/26/how-ronnie-whelan-became-the-most-underrated-liverpool-star-of-all/

I'd wager a few around here are here because of him

Maybe that is why he is so angry.

BorneTobyWilde

Grayditch wrote: »

I think we should raid West Ham and Newcastle.

Tool late, someone got there before us.

Boom_Bap

J Mysterio wrote: »

Lovren is excellent with both feet? :pac:

His passing and stiking of a ball is equal on both sides. I recall a big thing about it here before when it came out that he was left or right footed when everyone thought the opposite.

J Mysterio wrote: »

I dont buy that argument RE: Sakho at all. What makes you think Matip is suited to a high line defence where Sakho is not?

How many times do you see Matip making last ditch sliding tackles?
Now think about how many times Sahko does it.

The defenders who are not making them are the ones that are in the right position or are capable of moving with the pace of the opposition attackers.

The ones who are doing those tackles are the ones that are getting caught out positionally.

Mr.H

J Mysterio wrote:

I dont buy that argument RE: Sakho at all. What makes you think Matip is suited to a high line defence where Sakho is not?

Sakho is too unpredictable as a center back. Players targeted him because he often gave the ball away and left our keeper exposed. Sakho isn't reliable enough

corwill

Nice bit on Ronnie Whelan. http://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/04/26/how-ronnie-whelan-became-the-most-underrated-liverpool-star-of-all/

cj maxx

brevity wrote: »

Nice piece on Ronnie Whelan:

http://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/04/26/how-ronnie-whelan-became-the-most-underrated-liverpool-star-of-all/

I'd wager a few around here are here because of him

Absolutely loved whelan in that team of the 80's. Best team I ever saw

brevity

corwill wrote: »

Nice bit on Ronnie Whelan. http://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/04/26/how-ronnie-whelan-became-the-most-underrated-liverpool-star-of-all/

Too slow corwill :cool:

Utopia Parkway

Mr.H wrote: »

Sakho is too unpredictable as a center back. Players targeted him because he often gave the ball away and left our keeper exposed. Sakho isn't reliable enough

I believe the stats showed he didn't give the ball away nearly as much as people think. He just tended to have these mad few minutes every now and then which coloured the perception of him but generally his passing from the back was pretty reliable.

Agent Coulson

Sessegnon being linked again today.



Sessegnon at 16 hasn't signed his first pro contract yet and that won't be put in front of him till the 1st of July with Fulham.


I wonder are we trying to get on a tribunal fee instead of playing Fulham a huge transfer fee.

Harry Palmr

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Sessegnon being linked again today.



Sessegnon at 16 hasn't signed his first pro contract yet and that won't be put in front of him till the 1st of July with Fulham.


I wonder are we trying to get on a tribunal fee instead of playing Fulham a huge transfer fee.

The tribunal fee will be pretty big precisely because his transfer fee would be, I dunno, 15m?

I'm sure they will try to get him to sign and he might be happy to do so as a thank you

mormank

corwill wrote: »

If our transfers are to be dictated in that fashion, and the club has that little confidence in its scouting, then we might as well go home. Keeping people 'happy' isn't the objective, or shouldn't be.

I couldn't agree more, which is why my reply to your post bitching about the potential transfer fee was a long winded way of saying stop bitching! Did you not realise I was referring to you in my reply??

Gbear

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

I believe the stats showed he didn't give the ball away nearly as much as people think. He just tended to have these mad few minutes every now and then which coloured the perception of him but generally his passing from the back was pretty reliable.

Further to that, his passing was aggressive, which you would think would be a hugely positive attribute in an attacking side, albeit one that can on occasion backfire, like much of Sakho's play.

Piddly passes around the sides to the full backs = bad.
Thundered passes along the ground to players on the half-turn = good.

It's probably something that only Lucas is any good at in the side with everyone else who plays deeper either lacking the ambition, skill to pull them off or else on the other end, we're not creating the passing opportunities between the lines.

corwill

mormank wrote: »

I couldn't agree more, which is why my reply to your post bitching about the potential transfer fee was a long winded way of saying stop bitching! Did you not realise I was referring to you in my reply??

If you think that my above posts were 'bitching', then good luck to you.

Agent Coulson

Anyone see that article on Ronnie Whelan being the most underrated star of them all at Liverpool.



Great footballer and a true club legend but one hell of a terrible bitter pundit.

~Rebel~

Boom_Bap wrote: »

My view is to let the accountants in the club look after the money. If a player that we want is deemed affordable, make the offer.

This is fine, if we're working with unlimited budgets. But as soon as budgets are imposed, you have to make decisions to compromise. It means another position has less money to strengthen. I know i'd much rather a 50m wingforward and 30m CB than the other way around.

Boom_Bap wrote: »

How many times do you see Matip making last ditch sliding tackles?
Now think about how many times Sahko does it.

The defenders who are not making them are the ones that are in the right position or are capable of moving with the pace of the opposition attackers.

The ones who are doing those tackles are the ones that are getting caught out positionally.

You're arguing that just because he did one thing really well, he didn't do another thing at all. He did both. One of his best attributes for us was stepping between the lines and intercepting passes.

When I think of Sakho, what I actually think of is him surging in front of an attacker who's about to receive the ball, getting to it before them, and playing a laser straight pass into an attacking midfielder.

J Mysterio

Mr.H wrote: »

Sakho is too unpredictable as a center back. Players targeted him because he often gave the ball away and left our keeper exposed. Sakho isn't reliable enough

LOL. Say that to Big Sam. He has revitilized that team from top to bottom with his commanding presence in defence. His organizational skills have also been commended. The Liverpool U23 manager spoke of his attitude in glowing terms.

J Mysterio

Boom_Bap wrote: »

His passing and stiking of a ball is equal on both sides. I recall a big thing about it here before when it came out that he was left or right footed when everyone thought the opposite.

Lovren isn't even in the same universe as Sakho as regards passing. Sakho zips nice hard low passes into the CB's feet. Lovren bounces it across the defence. When Lovren wants to bring it forward, he starts getting ideas about how he can skip around the opposition...

Boom_Bap wrote: »

How many times do you see Matip making last ditch sliding tackles?
Now think about how many times Sahko does it.

The defenders who are not making them are the ones that are in the right position or are capable of moving with the pace of the opposition attackers.

The ones who are doing those tackles are the ones that are getting caught out positionally.

I saw Matip do one or two of those slide tackles you mention in our last game. The one we lost to Palace. Sakho's slide tackling is second to none.

martyos121

~Rebel~ wrote: »

This is fine, if we're working with unlimited budgets. But as soon as budgets are imposed, you have to make decisions to compromise. It means another position has less money to strengthen. I know i'd much rather a 50m wingforward and 30m CB than the other way around.



You're arguing that just because he did one thing really well, he didn't do another thing at all. He did both. One of his best attributes for us was stepping between the lines and intercepting passes.

When I think of Sakho, what I actually think of is him surging in front of an attacker who's about to receive the ball, getting to it before them, and playing a laser straight pass into an attacking midfielder.

I see your point, but considering we're pretty good for a wing forward and in desperate need of quality in the back line, I'd probably take the other way around at this point. £30m would still get you a player capable of competing with the likes of Mane and co. If it doesn't, we're doing it wrong. The big money must be invested in defence, in my opinion, and I'm including defensive minded midfielders in that (if they can attack too like Keita, all the better).

Aymeric Laporte has a release clause around £50-55m, and thats the type of transfer I'd like to see us go after. A top, young centre back with world class potential. Van Dijk would also do but this lad is younger and a better player IMO and effectively the same price. There's nothing Sakho can do that Laporte can't, like those laser straight passes into midfield you mentioned, for example. He's a great ball player.

LiamoSail

~Rebel~ wrote: »

This is fine, if we're working with unlimited budgets. But as soon as budgets are imposed, you have to make decisions to compromise. It means another position has less money to strengthen. I know i'd much rather a 50m wingforward and 30m CB than the other way around.

.

That might be true at a normal club, not at Liverpool though.

Liverpool are stupid with money and you can guarantee that notwithstanding the occasional exception, most funds will be wasted.

For that reason I'd rather any top target, irrespective of price, be signed. Granted it means less to spend on what's left, but given the clubs success in the market, I'd rather one definite and one potential signing over two average signings, as is usually the case