Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2016/2017

Pyjamarama

mosstin wrote: »

He's a centre half. He knows the position. He's very good on the ball. He's prone to error, sure, but compared to Lucas? Absolutely baffling. You can't not pick him because tonight might be the night he makes an error. If that was the case, Lovren would never get a game.

Lucas had been playing great tho. He was sensational against Spurs. Completely dominated the most on form striker in the league. I'm not saying that starting Lucas at cb is something i'm a fan of but he was in far better form than Klavan and that has to matter.

OwaynOTT

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Lucas had been playing great tho. He was sensational against Spurs. Completely dominated the most on form striker in the league. I'm not saying that starting Lucas at cb is something i'm a fan of but he was in far better form than Klavan and that has to matter.

But in the previous game at CB Lucas wasn't great at all. I'd rather Klavan there but then i would have much preferred sakho and even more preferred a new signing of a quality during the summer that wouldn't have us started a diminished Lucas at CB.
Klavan and Lucas are t good enough for a team that serious about competing for things.

Pyjamarama

OwaynOTT wrote: »

But in the previous game at CB Lucas wasn't great at all. I'd rather Klavan there but then i would have much preferred sakho and even more preferred a new signing of a quality during the summer that wouldn't have us started a diminished Lucas at CB.
Klavan and Lucas are t good enough for a team that serious about competing for things.

Buying another cb in the summer (a 1st team replacement for Dejan) would have meant bedding in (at the time) 4 new members of a back 5, with Karius, Matip, New cb and Milner all being new to that role. Would have been insane to ask Karius to settle into a new league with two cbs that were doing the same in front of him (there really aren't many cbs in the prem right now i'd want that are viable). Its not gonna be popular but i don't think Klopp really even thought about winning the league this season. He's thinking longer term and having Matip acclimatized to the league and bringing in his long term partner in the summer is likely a better long term plan. If we go into next season with just these options then there will be real cause to complain.

Klopp took over a fairly poor team and squad. He's already added 3 really good new players to the first team in his one window (January may as well not exist since its almost impossible to get the right players in it) and thats a pretty good return imo. If he does the same next season and we move a few of the current team to the bench our squad is looking a LOT healthier.

KaiserGunner

mosstin wrote: »

View from the stands....

First half we were very good in patches. Lallana was everywhere, Firmino's touch was filthy and they couldn't keep tabs on Mané. What you probably won't have seen on BT was Arsenal being booed off by their fans. They really were miserable - lost every 50/50 and barely troubled Mignolet. Didn't think we were outstanding but we didn't have to be.
2nd half and we inevitably conceded - thought Mig should have done better myself, but there again, I often do. Matip read everything and why Klavan didn't start against Leicester given how assured he looked today is baffling.
Player who stood out for me though was Gini. His ability to pick up the second balls in midfield, find a smart pass and get us going - and he does this time and time again. The fact that he capped it off with a cracking goal was even better.
Lallana was quieter in the second half but rarely wasted a ball. They had about 5-10 minutes after they scored when they looked as if they'd make a game of it but rarely have I seen an Arsenal team as insipid as that.
I don't honestly know where that leaves us - we know we're awesome against the better teams. I thought we were far more impressive against Spurs and then went out and did what we do against Leicester. Time to start stringing some performances together now.
The relationship between this Arsenal side and their fans is pretty toxic. At the end of the game, at least 8 of the Arsenal players trudged off with a half-hearted applause for the away fans. This was met with several wanker signs and loads of verbal abuse. And we thought we had problems.

Great post, I'm particularly interested in what you said between the Arsenal team and the away Arsenal fans. We have major problems.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

This is the problem: inconsistancy. And it's not news to to us.

"Lucas played great against...." - "Klavan played great against..." - doesn't have any inferance on how they're going to play in the next game.

You could pick any two of our central defenders, and they are just as likely (if not more likely) to give away a couple of gosls through lack of concentration as shut out the best strikers in the league. All of them.

And new signings will not change that.

OwaynOTT

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Buying another cb in the summer (a 1st team replacement for Dejan) would have meant bedding in (at the time) 4 new members of a back 5, with Karius, Matip, New cb and Milner all being new to that role. Would have been insane to ask Karius to settle into a new league with two cbs that were doing the same in front of him (there really aren't many cbs in the prem right now i'd want that are viable). Its not gonna be popular but i don't think Klopp really even thought about winning the league this season. He's thinking longer term and having Matip acclimatized to the league and bringing in his long term partner in the summer is likely a better long term plan. If we go into next season with just these options then there will be real cause to complain.

Klopp took over a fairly poor team and squad. He's already added 3 really good new players to the first team in his one window (January may as well not exist since its almost impossible to get the right players in it) and thats a pretty good return imo. If he does the same next season and we move a few of the current team to the bench our squad is looking a LOT healthier.

That's a valid point but I just think they could have gotten better quality than Klavan. A younger player that wouldn't be going straight into the first team but could be bedded in over the course of the year.
Still have Matip and lovern as starting pair but would have an able backup that would be useful in the longer term.



Another thing that was annoying me was, I thought Matip was much older than he was and that he was only a season or two stop gap. Which would have been compounded by our CB summer signings.
He's only 25! I thought he was at least 30. Really nice signing on a free.

Buford T. Justice XIX

OwaynOTT wrote: »

That's a valid point but I just think they could have gotten better quality than Klavan. A younger player that wouldn't be going straight into the first team but could be bedded in over the course of the year.
Still have Matip and lovern as starting pair but would have an able backup that would be useful in the longer term.



Another thing that was annoying me was, I thought Matip was much older than he was and that he was only a season or two stop gap. Which would have been compounded by our CB summer signings.
He's only 25! I thought he was at least 30. Really nice signing on a free.

Gomez was/is that player. He was unfortunate with his injury and the time needed to get back fully fit but should get a lot more game time next year.

Gbear

mormank wrote: »

Well yeah, but they have scored what? 19 goals? 20 goals? We could smash their defensive record imo if we played as negatively as them. The way we play it seems we can't have one without the other. Certainly not without a change in mentality aswell as personal changes. The point being we can have the 2 best fullbacks in the world but if they are never in our own half we will still leak goals. We need to strike that balance between attack and defence just as much as we need personnel changes imo.

Striking the balance can go both ways.

Either, in games where teams are going to sit deep we need better defenders and have to play more conservatively ourselves to protect against the counter, or we need a way to break these teams down more consistently.

Leicester was just a **** performance where individuals were atrocious.
That shouldn't automatically mean a loss, mind you, but I can accept those kinds of things happening sometimes.

What we need to solve are the systematic issues, either in attack or defence (both and we'll be champions or close to it).

I don't think we'll ever have a defence up with the strongest in the league playing the way we do unless we're getting to peak Barcelona levels where they don't need to defend because they're 4-0 up before the other shower know what's going on and they give up, or they're beaten before they walk onto the pitch because they know that's what's going to happen.

Harry Palmr

Matip just needs a clone of himself with a left sided peg.

As for win one/lose one, the worst thing possible after Spurs was to end up with a two week gap which meant the hot iron cooled and of course gave Leicester City the chance to cut their loses and get a bounce - Barnsley on the other hand are a week away and they will be exactly as they have been all season.

OwaynOTT

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Gomez was/is that player. He was unfortunate with his injury and the time needed to get back fully fit but should get a lot more game time next year.

But Gomez was coming back from one if two( not sure when he got the second, it's early Sunday morning and I've a hangover so forgive me) horrific injuries and to be honest he has shown he's not 100% ready to be that player yet since he came back.

Gomez had doubts because of injuries(still hope he can go on to be a good player for us)
Sakho was getting the boot
Lucas isn't a CB
Could have done better than Klavan

That's what we were relying on if our main two CB had an injury or suspension.

NukaCola

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Barnsley on the other hand are a week away and they will be exactly as they have been all season.

Rolling back the years!

corwill

NukaCola wrote: »

Rolling back the years!

Something something Harry something something very old something something.

Harry Palmr

NukaCola wrote: »

Rolling back the years!

My Barnsley/Burnley malapropism will always be. :pac:

BorneTobyWilde

We've been two players away from a league title for the last 100 plus players, about time we looked at our approach.
Rafa built from the back, and he does it regardless of personnel. Newcastle have conceded 29 goals in 35 league games thus far this season. He did not need to go buy a new team to make them solid.
We have great defenders,they all looked great at their previous clubs.

Harry Palmr

Milner isn't even a defender! He never looked like one at City Villa, Newcastle, Leeds!

Liverpool has one A grade defender (Matip), three B grade defenders (Clyne +, Lovren, Klavan -) and a C grade defender in Moreno. Can't grade Gomez yet and it would be unfair to Lucas to give him a mark at all!

Gbear

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

We've been two players away from a league title for the last 100 plus players, about time we looked at our approach.
Rafa built from the back, and he does it regardless of personnel. Newcastle have conceded 29 goals in 35 league games thus far this season. He did not need to go buy a new team to make them solid.
We have great defenders,they all looked great at their previous clubs.

Rafa's currently struggling to win a league he got relegated into with a premiership level squad (not, I think one of the worst 3 squads in the league last season) and then went on to spend as much as the rest of the league combined barring Aston Villa.
You need to get the job done and that's that but they're hardly pulling up any trees.

He also never won the league with us.

We ended up falling short because we didn't have the attacking personnel while Rodgers, who even his most ardent supporters will acknowledge to be a worse manager, got closer with a worse team in a far shorter period of time because our attack was spot on. It still arguably didn't have the depth but it at least finally had the quality.

Look at Ferguson. He had good defences, of course, and maybe it was luck that lead to that getting sorted so quickly and needing relatively little work over the years, with a solid core of Ferdinand, Van Der Saar and Vidic aquired relatively cheaply, but he had the likes of Wes Brown, John O'Shea and other journeymen part of that defence as well.
But where did the bulk of his spending go?

The team that beat Benitez' best side in 08/09 - why did it win? Because you couldn't keep them out.
There's no way to defend against Tevez, Ronaldo, Berbatov and Rooney supported by quality pacy wingers as well.

How did he bounce back after City won their first title? He bought Van Persie and in doing so, bought the league.

Even look at Chelsea this season - their defence is huge but they wouldn't be running away with the league if they couldn't score in virtually every game.
You can win cups with defence. You cannot win a league without an attack and not just volume of goals but spread of goals and the capacity to breach any defence.

Agent Coulson

Ugh wanting the blue half to win really does make the skin crawl.

BorneTobyWilde

Any news on this Saudi Arabia deal, a country that will stone to death a rape victim and give the guy who raped her 4 slaps. Did anything happen with this so called deal ?

Harry Palmr

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Milner isn't even a defender! He never looked like one at City Villa, Newcastle, Leeds!

Liverpool has one A grade defender (Matip), three B grade defenders (Clyne +, Lovren, Klavan -) and a C grade defender in Moreno. Can't grade Gomez yet and it would be unfair to Lucas to give him a mark at all!

Clyne is a great RB, not suited to bombing forward constantly which he seems to be mandated to do.

BorneTobyWilde

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Milner isn't even a defender! He never looked like one at City Villa, Newcastle, Leeds!

Liverpool has one A grade defender (Matip), three B grade defenders (Clyne +, Lovren, Klavan -) and a C grade defender in Moreno. Can't grade Gomez yet and it would be unfair to Lucas to give him a mark at all!

Then why did they end up at Liverpool.
They ended up there because before the came they were considered Grade A top choice meat .

happyoutscan

Great vibe today after stuffing the Gunners and the 'Obsessed' only picking up a point.

happyoutscan

happyoutscan wrote: »

.......and the 'Obsessed' only picking up a point.

Alanis Mo.......

5starpool

Gbear wrote: »

The team that beat Benitez' best side in 08/09 - why did it win? Because you couldn't keep them out.
There's no way to defend against Tevez, Ronaldo, Berbatov and Rooney supported by quality pacy wingers as well.

Well that's clearly rubbish. We scored more goals than anyone that season, while Utd conceded less than anyone. They went 10 or so games at one point without conceding, winning most of those 1-0 if I remember correctly, never playing brilliantly, but not conceding and getting across the line.

We lost the league because of a combination of how dogged Utd were and a few dodgy draws where we couldn't break teams down, but with 86 points (our highest total in many years) the fact that Utd were so dogged that year was as big a factor as our failures and shortcomings.

Gbear

5starpool wrote: »

Well that's clearly rubbish. We scored more goals than anyone that season, while Utd conceded less than anyone. They went 10 or so games at one point without conceding, winning most of those 1-0 if I remember correctly, never playing brilliantly, but not conceding and getting across the line.

We lost the league because of a combination of how dogged Utd were and a few dodgy draws where we couldn't break teams down, but with 86 points (our highest total in many years) the fact that Utd were so dogged that year was as big a factor as our failures and shortcomings.

Volume of goals isn't what's important.

Scoring 1 goal every game will probably yield more points than scoring 5 in half the games and 0 in the rest.

Utd only failed to score in 4 games and those were against Arsenal(4th), Spurs(8th), Fulham(7th) and Villa(6th).
Of those, only Arsenal were at home.

We failed to score in 6 and those were against Villa(6th), Stoke(12th, home and away), Borough(19th), Fulham (7th), West Ham (9th)
4 of those were at home.

Our defence was pretty much as good, our midfield was streets ahead but our attack was pretty much down to Torres and Gerrard.

You can only get so many lads on the pitch at once so on it's day we had plenty up front as well, as evidenced by the large number of goals we scored that season overall.

That was the best team I've ever seen Liverpool have and it lost because it couldn't maintain the level it should have and that was because it didn't have the breadth of firepower up front the rest of the team deserved, so fairly **** teams could park the bus and frustrate us, especially if our main, injury-prone option was missing.

Today, we actually do have a greater breadth of attacking options, but what we don't have is that top quality. You need both.
You stick a Suarez or a Torres in there yesterday instead of Firmino or Lallana and we utterly demolish Arsenal. Like 5 or 6.
But what's more, is that they'll probably have the tools to rob a goal when the talent of our current options runs out.

Our attacking philosphy is, I think the single biggest factor in the number of goals we score. Chelsea, on the other hand, can afford to play more conservatively because they have better and broader options.
They don't have to worry about throwing the kitchen sink at teams because every game they know if it's not Costa, it'll be Hazard, Pedro, Willian or whoever.

Loved that win yesterday.

I just cant get my head around going full peg when 2-0 up. Fullbacks bombing forward as if we're chasing the game. Then when the opposition attack it's 2 v 2 at the back.

Rodgers teams used to do similar and it drove me daft. Unfortunately we'll never win a league playing like that.

Whatever happened to slowing things down a bit when you have a lead, particularly a few goal lead.

paulie21

Spurs 1 up

Osmosis Jones

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Loved that win yesterday.

I just cant get my head around going full peg when 2-0 up. Fullbacks bombing forward as if we're chasing the game. Then when the opposition attack it's 2 v 2 at the back.

Rodgers teams used to do similar and it drove me daft. Unfortunately we'll never win a league playing like that.

Whatever happened to slowing things down a bit when you have a lead, particularly a few goal lead.

We have been doing that, showed we could defend a lead against City and slowed it down after two quick goals against Spurs too. No idea why they kept attacking yesterday.

Osmosis Jones

Another moment I loved from yesterday was just how quick Matip was to claim the foul when he saw Can could have been sent off.

Gbear

Gbear wrote: »

Volume of goals isn't what's important.

......



Our attacking philosphy is, I think the single biggest factor in the number of goals we score. ....

Both true.... 2nd point is less than profound to be fair.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Gbear wrote: »

Volume of goals isn't what's important.

Scoring 1 goal every game will probably yield more points than scoring 5 in half the games and 0 in the rest.

Utd only failed to score in 4 games and those were against Arsenal(4th), Spurs(8th), Fulham(7th) and Villa(6th).
Of those, only Arsenal were at home.

We failed to score in 6 and those were against Villa(6th), Stoke(12th, home and away), Borough(19th), Fulham (7th), West Ham (9th)
4 of those were at home.

Our defence was pretty much as good, our midfield was streets ahead but our attack was pretty much down to Torres and Gerrard.

You can only get so many lads on the pitch at once so on it's day we had plenty up front as well, as evidenced by the large number of goals we scored that season overall.

That was the best team I've ever seen Liverpool have and it lost because it couldn't maintain the level it should have and that was because it didn't have the breadth of firepower up front the rest of the team deserved, so fairly **** teams could park the bus and frustrate us, especially if our main, injury-prone option was missing.

Today, we actually do have a greater breadth of attacking options, but what we don't have is that top quality. You need both.
You stick a Suarez or a Torres in there yesterday instead of Firmino or Lallana and we utterly demolish Arsenal. Like 5 or 6.
But what's more, is that they'll probably have the tools to rob a goal when the talent of our current options runs out.

Our attacking philosphy is, I think the single biggest factor in the number of goals we score. Chelsea, on the other hand, can afford to play more conservatively because they have better and broader options.
They don't have to worry about throwing the kitchen sink at teams because every game they know if it's not Costa, it'll be Hazard, Pedro, Willian or whoever.

Now that's a recurring theme with Liverpool FC. Other than Bobby F. and Suarez, was Fowler (mark I) the last main striker we has that wasn't injury prone?

eyerer

Yeah maybe the reason for no league title in 08/09 was the strength in depth, how many games did N'Gog play that year?

And even when Torres was up top, sometimes a second quality forward would have helped.

mormank

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Another moment I loved from yesterday was just how quick Matip was to claim the foul when he saw Can could have been sent off.

Agreed. However I thought he was a bit too eager, I know if I'm the ref and a player comes over to claim a foul like that I'm very suspicious and probably send off Can and give a yellow to Matip for lying....if you can give a yellow for that.

Charlie19

eyerer wrote: »

Yeah maybe the reason for no league title in 08/09 was the strength in depth, how many games did N'Gog play that year?

And even when Torres was up top, sometimes a second quality forward would have helped.

If only we had a proven goal scorer that like doing cartwheels.

BorneTobyWilde

Damien360

Great passion in that pic. Pity there are some very angry Arsenal fans in the background of that pic. Especially the guy top left giving one finger salute.

~Rebel~

eyerer wrote: »

Yeah maybe the reason for no league title in 08/09 was the strength in depth, how many games did N'Gog play that year?

And even when Torres was up top, sometimes a second quality forward would have helped.

Ngog only started 2 games, he was mostly just used as a quick impact sub. We were more likely that year to move Kuyt up top when Torres was missing after Keane left, and Dirky got 12 goals and 8 assists, including some massive ones in Torres absence, like singlehandedly getting us a win when Portsmouth were beating us.

Kerrigooney

Damien360 wrote: »

Great passion in that pic. Pity there are some very angry Arsenal fans in the background of that pic. Especially the guy top left giving one finger salute.

When opposition fans are giving you the finger then you're doing something right.

Harry Palmr

Sanchez creating mayhem in the Arsenal squad, I knew he was a wrong 'un! (see Arsenal thread for details)

BorneTobyWilde

Will Henderson slide back into side if we continue to win.

Charlie19

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Will Henderson slide back into side if we continue to win.

Without any doubt. Straight in for Emre.

NukaCola

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Another moment I loved from yesterday was just how quick Matip was to claim the foul when he saw Can could have been sent off.

Gaillimh1976

Kerrigooney wrote: »

When opposition fans are giving you the finger then you're doing something right.

Yes, but he scored at the Kop end .........

~Rebel~

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Sanchez creating mayhem in the Arsenal squad, I knew he was a wrong 'un! (see Arsenal thread for details)

Would take him in a second.

Kerrigooney

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Another moment I loved from yesterday was just how quick Matip was to claim the foul when he saw Can could have been sent off.

NukaCola wrote: »

He'd have been well pissed off if the ref gave him a straight red.

NukaCola

Kerrigooney wrote: »

He'd have been well pissed off if the ref gave him a straight red.

Ref was only delighted I'd say, didn't have to make a huge call.

retalivity

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Would take him in a second.

Bid £25,000,001

Harry Palmr

The positional isolation of Can is interesting, with Lallana and Wiji well up front he was left to do the mopping up and because of the way Arsenal were set up with long balls and just Xhaka/Coquelin in the middle he was able to be an effective blocker



Xhaka heat map shows just how little he moved from the centre of the pitch, so making Cans' life in particular much easier than it should have been.

Turtyturd

7 of them crying in the ref's face. Between that and Coquelin's assault it's great to see them playing the game the 'right way'.

5starpool

Gaillimh1976 wrote: »

Yes, but he scored at the Kop end .........

Good point. Probably a doctored image, not sure 100% why it'd be done like that though.

Turtyturd

5starpool wrote: »

Good point. Probably a doctored image, not sure 100% why it'd be done like that though.

From the Chelsea or City game?