Bus Eireann

suicide_circus

Glenster wrote: »

If we were playing street sweepers 50K+ there would be outrage.

We probably are.

Anita Blow

If all BE want to do is reduce overtime payments then how do the bus drivers have any legitimate grievance? They can argue all day long about how they want to keep overtime or how they're entitled to it, but legally overtime is not a right.

I can understand protesting over basic pay & job losses (although I wouldn't necessarily agree), but anybody defending protests over non-core payments is just demonstrating a completely inability to judge whether a grievance is legitimate or not. There's no change to their terms and conditions, as their contract would state that they may be asked to work overtime and it'll be paid at X rate. It doesn't guarantee a minimum overtime and so BE is free to change it as they see fit.

PaulKK

hytrogen wrote: »

Did somebody mentioned monorail?! I hear those things are awefully loud

It glides as softly as a cloud.

ERG89

PaulKK wrote:

It glides as softly as a cloud.

Is there a chance the tracks could bend?

omega man

I don't get the argument that BE provide an essential public service. Is it not as simple as tendering out routes as PSO's? Surely private operators would jump at the opportunity for guaranteed income routes avoiding the usual commercial risks.....

I appreciate the airline industry is somewhat different but Aer Lingus was transformed following privatisation and all to the benefit of the travelling public by means of an open and competative market.

Every single train driver that went on strike should be sacked right away. They had no grievances, they were just being c*nts, leaving the hundreds, if not thousands, of people that were left stranded by the c*nt bus drivers going on strike.

Yourself isit

Dr Martin wrote: »

Plenty of private bus operators out there. Let them sink or swim. Or shut em down and put the money into more roads. I'll take an M20 please.

As a taxpayer why should I subsidise a motorway between small towns?

Yourself isit

Yourself isit wrote: »

As a taxpayer why should I subsidise a motorway between small towns?

You've obviously never travelled from Galway to Dublin pre-motorway, I take it.

nice_guy80

CIE as a company needs to be taken apart and modernized. It's not fit for purpose

Dr Martin

end of the road wrote: »

the plenty of private operators have to operate profitable routes only as their job is to make money so their owners can feed their families. bus eieann operates socially necessary and essential routes that aren't financially viable but bring benefits to the economy such as giving all the people access to jobs, education, and other opportunities. to shut "m" down and leave them sink or swim would mean no socially necessary routes meaning the huge potential for a bigger wellfare bill among other costs. there is enough roads for the demand meaning the current road where the m20 would have been planned to go is sufficient for the traffic on offer. remove the bends where possible and it will do for now. then when the country gets back on it's feet and has more money then it can be built without effecting the people's tax money.

anyway back to the actual topic of bus eireann. hopefully a solution can be found between all so that our publically owned company can survive and thrive and show the begrudgers and haters that it really can pull it out of the bag. you can do it lads.

If it's such an 'essential' service, then fire the workers who are holding the company to ransom. Plenty have no access to Bus Eireann but get on with their lives. I never used the service when I needed a bus, always used private services. Better roads means a better economy meaning more jobs and more lives saved.

The car is king. If you can't drive then learn to.

ChikiChiki

nice_guy80 wrote: »

CIE as a company needs to be taken apart and modernized. It's not fit for purpose

Same as the HSE. It all needs to come down and be re-structured. Think of the potential quality services that we should have, all being held back by greed filled dinosaurs.

AlmightyCushion

TheDoctor wrote: »

Private buses making a fortune on the quays in Dublin this evening

The place was chock a block yesterday evening.

AlmightyCushion

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The place was chock a block yesterday evening.

What's going to happen is that people will realize how great the private bus services are, will likely go back with them for future trips, hopefully resulting in those adding more routes and services, and benefitting massively because they actually deserve it.

Mr.Micro

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Same as the HSE. It all needs to come down and be re-structured. Think of the potential quality services that we should have, all being held back by greed filled dinosaurs.

Why stop there? Bus Eireann, Irish Rail, HSE, An Garda, Local government, most of the government departments, not fit for purpose.

hytrogen

Yourself isit wrote:

As a taxpayer why should I subsidise a motorway between small towns?

For the parish!!

road_high

Yourself isit wrote: »

As a taxpayer why should I subsidise a motorway between small towns?

Wfat are you talking about? Our unfinished motorway network mainly connects Dublin to regional towns and cities- give me an example of an isolated motorway between small towns?

AlmightyCushion

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's going to happen is that people will realize how great the private bus services are, will likely go back with them for future trips, hopefully resulting in those adding more routes and services, and benefitting massively because they actually deserve it.

That's what's happening with me. Always just got bus eireann, I never even looked at private options before. I got Furey's bus yesterday and it was cheaper and an hour quicker than bus eireann. Bus eireann do go from the airport which is handier for me but fúck them. I'll be going private from now on.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

no no, bus eireann has to have a cut of the commercial services market. they are entitled to operate expressway routes and should be on all commercial routes along with the private operators to insure real competition.

Are you calling for full deregulation or for a playing field which is tilted in favour of one operator rather than the interests of the customer?

nice_guy80

thinking about it, it might be better than BE goes to the wall

separate the school bus fleet from the company and the run the local bus services separately

then a properly functioning company might emerge to run the intercity services

devnull

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Again, you're making assumptions based on nothing: are there enough customers on the routes to make a viable income possible?

You're assuming that a company with means will take a route on.

You're also assuming bus drivers will happily work for basic pay.

Finally, a route that is not cost-effective for BE does not automatically mean a private opetator will take it on - or indeed that a profit can be made - what service do you then suggest for people left without access to the public transport network?

Bus Eireann serves rural routes and routes that are not commercially viable is it is paid to do so. It is given free vehicles to do so and the taxpayer spent almost 100 million euro on it last year. Private operators don't as they don't get free vehicles and are not funded to do so as of yet.

I know you are trying to make out that in a romantic way that Bus E is some kind of God who does it out of the kindness of their hearts and are portraying rural Ireland as a victim but it's a false narrative.

Nomis21

In UK there was the National Bus Company in the 70's and 80's. They ran virtually all local and long distance buses.

It was a good service for passengers but highly subsidised and unionised. Thatcher disbanded it.

Bus Eireann is a very similar organisation. The Irish Government would love to break up Bus Eireann and the Unions have offered them the opportunity on a plate. The Government will not back down until Irish rail and Dublin bus join the strike, which they surely will. At that point the unions will get most of what they want but the Government will have the ammunition it needs to sell off Bus Eireann's assets and tender the routes out to private operators.

devnull

Anita Blow wrote: »

If all BE want to do is reduce overtime payments then how do the bus drivers have any legitimate grievance? They can argue all day long about how they want to keep overtime or how they're entitled to it, but legally overtime is not a right.

I can understand protesting over basic pay & job losses (although I wouldn't necessarily agree), but anybody defending protests over non-core payments is just demonstrating a completely inability to judge whether a grievance is legitimate or not. There's no change to their terms and conditions, as their contract would state that they may be asked to work overtime and it'll be paid at X rate. It doesn't guarantee a minimum overtime and so BE is free to change it as they see fit.

Bus Eireann said in a full costed and written report that there are 1,378 drivers who work overtime each day which equals the cost of 1,636 drivers. It said if the company was to maximise driver efficiency, there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers. This alone is a shocking statistic and must be addressed.

Right now they are paying for the equivalent 650 more staff members than the company feels it needs at the moment and the average pay is €45,000 at the driver grade. You are saying that private operators have the same level of fat and excess in them that BE has?

Essentially the company is saying that with modern working practices and rotas that make the best use of resources, they can save over €25m before even talking about changing any terms and conditions or rates and any other cost measures. That is staggering.

devnull

Nomis21 wrote: »

In UK there was the National Bus Company in the 70's and 80's. They ran virtually all local and long distance buses.

It was a good service for passengers but highly subsidised and unionised. Thatcher disbanded it.

People I know around the time felt that it was awful, but many people look back with wide eyed eyes since they forgot about how bad it was since it was so long ago, I don't think full de-regulation is any better though what they have in the UK now but nobody has proposed it here.

I believe that providing good public transport services is the most important thing. Ultimately who provides the service doesn't bother me in the slightest. Many of the improvements that Bus Eireann have made over recent years have only been made because they have had no choice but to. We should always reward people who offer innovative new services.

This is why the NTA allows two operators per route on commercial routes and requires them to be at least 30 minutes apart from the competition. It rewards the first two operators who innovate, whilst at the same time protecting them from predators who just want to come after the service has been proven and cynically run buses at exactly the same time as the opposition who spend considerable money marketing and the up front costs of establishing a new service.

If a private proposes and starts operating an innovative new service that Bus Eireann say is not viable, as has happened on a number of occasions, why should we stop them? Public transport is supposed to be for the public not specified to the best interests of any other groups. No Monopoly is good no matter if it is a private company or a public company.

Indeed according to some, the NTA should should simply tell passengers who avail of services operated by private operators who put licenses in to operate later, faster, and more frequent services that Bus Eireann they must be canceled because Bus Eireann don't like it, since the interests of Bus Eireann are far more important than someone who wants to travel to the airport, on holiday or to work or to see their family, friends, children etc.

The problem in BE is that the staff have no commercial acumen on the front line whatsoever. They believe that the company is run for them as proven by the fact their company is struggling yet they are still asking for extra money. Just saying remove the competition is basically saying that the well being of their company is more important than the bigger picture and the service offered to the customers which should never be the case.

However in some respects I see the unions point. Their management has sold them down the river so to speak by not developing their products or services enough and management should take their share of the blame and their own mistakes as it is not only the staff to blame.

Yourself isit

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's going to happen is that people will realize how great the private bus services are, will likely go back with them for future trips, hopefully resulting in those adding more routes and services, and benefitting massively because they actually deserve it.

What's so great about them? A bus is a bus?

Yourself isit

Yourself isit wrote: »

What's so great about them? A bus is a bus?

Have you ever used a commuter Bus Eireann bus or a private bus?

A bus isn't just a bus. Private bus companies tend to be so much more comfortable buses, better prices, and helpful and nice drivers.

Compare what you'd get on Ryanair to Qantas. Only with Bus Eireann the prices are Qantas and the comfort is Ryanair.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

devnull wrote: »

Bus Eireann serves rural routes and routes that are not commercially viable is it is paid to do so. It is given free vehicles to do so and the taxpayer spent almost 100 million euro on it last year. Private operators don't as they don't get free vehicles and are not funded to do so as of yet.

Pretty much what I was saying to the other poster, but -

I know you are trying to make out that in a romantic way that Bus E is some kind of God who does it out of the kindness of their hearts and are portraying rural Ireland as a victim but it's a false narrative.

- I have no idea how you got that impression !

I'm trying to say that sometimes service is more important than profit and when this is the case private enterprise isn't going to touch it which is why I disagreed with the poster I was replying to.

So what do you do to people who are stuck on the unprofitable routes, but still need access to public trasnport routes?

Rodin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you ever used a commuter Bus Eireann bus or a private bus?

A bus isn't just a bus. Private bus companies tend to be so much more comfortable buses, better prices, and helpful and nice drivers.

Compare what you'd get on Ryanair to Qantas. Only with Bus Eireann the prices are Qantas and the comfort is Ryanair.

Qantas is rubbish. Not a patch on Etihad/Emirates

devnull

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'm trying to say that sometimes service is more important than profit and when this is the case private enterprise isn't going to touch it which is why I disagreed with the poster I was replying to.

So what do you do to people who are stuck on the unprofitable routes, but still need access to public trasnport routes?

Private operators don't as they don't get free vehicles and are not funded to do so as of yet.

The government wants to allow private bus companies and Bus Eireann to tender for routes and whoever does it for lowest cost will get the route, how will this stop routes?

Rodin

Rodin wrote: »

Qantas is rubbish. Not a patch on Etihad/Emirates

Ha. I couldn't think of other airlines. Supplement either of those with Qantas then.

Yourself isit

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you ever used a commuter Bus Eireann bus or a private bus?

A bus isn't just a bus. Private bus companies tend to be so much more comfortable buses, better prices, and helpful and nice drivers.

Compare what you'd get on Ryanair to Qantas. Only with Bus Eireann the prices are Qantas and the comfort is Ryanair.

I've used both. Bus eireann buses are better as far as I can see. That's why I'd prefer they survived (that and a hostility to privatised public transport I picked up in England)

As for Ryanair - both it and Qantas are private and one is shorthall and the other long haul. Neither is state owned. That comparison doesn't make sense on any level.

Edit.

Checked this out - bus eireann fleet is very young. Wiki says < 5 years.

hytrogen

nice_guy80 wrote:

separate the school bus fleet from the company and the run the local bus services separately

Might be expensive in the short term as the school buses are subsidised but long-term would work out a safer bet instead of importing the bangers from China.

nice_guy80 wrote:

then a properly functioning company might emerge to run the intercity services

Gobe citylink and aircoach perhaps?

devnull

Yourself isit wrote: »

I've used both. Bus eireann buses are better as far as I can see. That's why I'd prefer they survived (that and a hostility to privatised public transport I picked up in England)

UK has de-regulation.

Nobody is proposing it here.

Yourself isit

devnull wrote: »

UK has de-regulation.

Nobody is proposing it here.

Plenty on this thread are proposing the break up of BE.

devnull

Yourself isit wrote: »

Edit.

Checked this out - bus eireann fleet is very young. Wiki says < 5 years.

Congratulations, you discovered how to spin!

As at November 2013 the fleet consists of 1,300 buses and coaches.[9] The company mainly uses buses built by firms such as Scania, VDL Berkhof and Volvo. Bus Éireann's fleet have been substantially invested in as part of the National Development Plan. The vast majority of the operating fleet for expressway, commuter and local services are now five years old or less.

Few problems with your source
- It's three and a half years out of date
- A lot of those vehicles were purchased by the state for them
- It's not all vehicles, just a vast majority.
- The NDP is government funding.

As for the commercial arm, I agree they have a young fleet, huge issue though. They continued to spend millions upon millions on their commercial fleet and buying dozens of vehicles every year whilst spending no money on developing their services and even in last two years, they kept carrying on the spend spend spend on vehicles despite the fact they were losing money.

devnull

Yourself isit wrote: »

Plenty on this thread are proposing the break up of BE.

Nobody is saying there should be de-regulation - go on, show me someone who has.

Yourself isit

devnull wrote: »

Congratulations, you discovered how to spin!

I discovered a source on the Internet.

Few problems with your source
- It's three and a half years out of date
- A lot of those vehicles were purchased by the state for them
- It's not all vehicles, just a vast majority.
- The NDP is government funding.

1)I didnt quote or link so I'm not sure where you got that. 8 years is still young if that's true.
2) irrelevant. I was responding to somebody who told me (a frequent bus user) that private buses were much better.
3) OK. Not sure this invalidates my argument.
4) irrelevant. See point 2

As for the commercial arm, I agree they have a young fleet, huge issue though. They continued to spend millions upon millions on their commercial fleet and buying dozens of vehicles every year whilst spending no money on developing their services and even in last two years, they kept carrying on the spend spend spend on vehicles despite the fact they were losing money.

Again irrelevant. I was replying to someone who was convinced that private buses were much better. I merely pointed out that they weren't in my experience. Nothing you have said disproved that. The opposite on fact.

Yourself isit

devnull wrote: »

Nobody is saying there should be de-regulation - go on, show me someone who has.

Can you argue your straw men somewhere else? The UK isn't deregulated. There are state defined criteria for private buses and private trains there.

I'm saying the vast majority of Bus Eireann bus drivers need to be sacked. The striking Train drivers need to be sacked. Any Dublin Bus drivers that go on strike need to be sacked. There are plenty of people available to take up those jobs.

devnull

Yourself isit wrote: »

I discovered a source on the Internet.

I didnt quote or link so I'm not sure where you got that. 8 years is still young if that's true.

You said from Wikipedia, that came from Wikipedia on the Bus Eireann page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_%C3%89ireann

A source that is over 3 years out of date and is marked on the source, that has a [citation needed] tag because there are doubts about it's accuracy and doesn't mean guidelines for wikipedia articles on accuracy.

irrelevant. I was responding to somebody who told me (a frequent bus user) that private buses were much better.

So you're comparing buses given to a company for free via taxpayer funding, on routes which are fully paid for by taxpayers, where private operators cannot operate, with vehicles that a private operator has to pay full costs, pay full insurance and pay full vehicle purchase and maintenance costs?

If you compared Expressway with other commercial operators maybe you would have a good point, but you didn't. I'm all for comparisons but they have to be fair comparisons and comparing apples with apples, but as per usual the union fanboys on this thread don't want to compare apples with apples. or cite proper, recent, neutral sources.

Again irrelevant. I was replying to someone who was convinced that private buses were much better. I merely pointed out that they weren't in my experience. Nothing you have said disproved that. The opposite on fact.

Yeah, discussing why Bus Eireann are in a dire situation in a thread about it, is not relevant at all.

devnull

Yourself isit wrote: »

Can you argue your straw men somewhere else? The UK isn't deregulated. There are state defined criteria for private buses and private trains there.

Ah, the usual tactic, make a claim, not be able to back it up, then run away.

Here's some reading for you:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/67/pdfs/ukpga_19850067_en.pdf
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01534/SN01534.pdf
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2006/10/26/bus-deregulation-isn-t-working
http://www.renewal.org.uk/articles/route-masters-the-re-regulation-of-bus-services-in-tyne-and-wear

You can say you are wrong, any time, but I suspect you won't.

You have zero credibility and have been caught red handed spinning a lie.

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm saying the vast majority of Bus Eireann bus drivers need to be sacked. The striking Train drivers need to be sacked. Any Dublin Bus drivers that go on strike need to be sacked. There are plenty of people available to take up those jobs.

Yup if they dont want to do their job then lets relieve them of it. Its for thier own good.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

devnull wrote: »

The government wants to allow private bus companies and Bus Eireann to tender for routes and whoever does it for lowest cost will get the route, how will this stop routes?

Not really what I was arguing: my scenrio was if BE pulled the routes and no one covered them - your scenario is that the lowest cost will cover them: lowest cost assumes that there's enough profit to attract private (no guarantee) and that BE will still cover it even if it makes a loss (current situation).

devnull

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not really what I was arguing: my scenrio was if BE pulled the routes and no one covered them - your scenario is that the lowest cost will cover them: lowest cost assumes that there's enough profit to attract private (no guarantee) and that BE will still cover it even if it makes a loss (current situation).

Privates have lower costs, and in any case whether there is profit or loss will be of no concern since the current model proposed is that operators will pay a fixed fee to be set by the tender, and the farebox revenue will go to the NTA.

The operators will be the ones who say how much they can run the service for. and the NTA will pick the winning tender.

Rodin

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm saying the vast majority of Bus Eireann bus drivers need to be sacked. The striking Train drivers need to be sacked. Any Dublin Bus drivers that go on strike need to be sacked. There are plenty of people available to take up those jobs.

The line in the sand should have been drawn with Luas and then Dublin Bus.

I think Bus Eireann drivers think they will get the same deal others have. They have been grossly misinformed in my opinion.

end of the road

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I spent more time in front of a BE driver than anybody.

4 years getting the N7 route out of Limerick on a Friday. To go back home and work to fund my student lifestyle.

I could drive that bus, it's an automatic smooth driving machine. I know the route and like all men I possess superior spacial awareness skills.

you couldn't drive the bus.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Sack every last one of these drivers.

not cost effective, there are no grounds, and there would be a shortage of experienced drivers.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

You're not brain surgeons boys, you can be replaced in an instant.

they can't. only a certain caliber of person will usually pass all the relevant requirements and stick with the job long term. see dublin bus for an example, people applied for jobs when they were open but left not long after they joined. the company had problems getting staff as well so that was a double blow. the days of one going to college meaning anything or making one a bit more special then everyone else have gone.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

And don't forget that one day soon, a computer will take your job.

not anytime soon i'm afraid. the current drivers will be long retired.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

And don't forget that one day soon, a computer will take your job.

not anytime soon i'm afraid. the current drivers will be long retired.

Are you confirming you are a driver for Bus Eireann?

Personally I can't see driverless buses anytime soon.

devnull

devnull wrote: »

Are you confirming you are a driver for Bus Eireann?

Personally I can't see driverless buses anytime soon.

Probably has a lot of time on his hands, after going on strike from his cushy 40K a year job.

VinLieger

end of the road wrote: »

not anytime soon i'm afraid. the current drivers will be long retired.

Sigh your continuing with this baseless claim that you can predict the future then?

Do i really need to post this in reply to you again

http://www.popsci.com/driverless-buses-go-with-traffic-flow

Glenster

end of the road wrote: »

you couldn't drive the bus.

it's not a nuclear submarine. it's a bus. anyone could drive it.

Nomis21

end of the road wrote: »

you couldn't drive the bus.



not cost effective, there are no grounds, and there would be a shortage of experienced drivers.



they can't. only a certain caliber of person will usually pass all the relevant requirements and stick with the job long term. see dublin bus for an example, people applied for jobs when they were open but left not long after they joined. the company had problems getting staff as well so that was a double blow. the days of one going to college meaning anything or making one a bit more special then everyone else have gone.



not anytime soon i'm afraid. the current drivers will be long retired.

I was a bus driver for 40 years in 3 countries. Most people quit the job because of the shift work. One week up at 4.00am next week working till 1.00am, weekends and bank holidays.

A computer can't decide whether to call the cops when someone says a fellow passenger robbed them or deal with a drunk passenger or someone needing medical help.

Yes, most car drivers could make a reasonable attempt at driving the bus even without training but would find it harder to stick the shift work.