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Speculating on Re Regs

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    #32
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    The Hill Billy wrote: »
    Have you not read previous replies? The rule is not made-up - it has been there as long as I can recall. The site history of other posters is really none of your business & they are entitled to their anonymity as per the Terms of Use that you agreed to when you registered.

    Show me the rule please, that states I can't ask someone.

    Hullabaloo thinks there's no such rule.

    Why are you dragging anonymity into it??

    How does asking someone if they're a re reg affect their anonymity or reveal their identity?

    You are attempting to confuse someone's anonymous online identity with their actual identity as far as I can make out and it has no bearing on the conversation.


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    #33
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,066 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The rule has been clearly shown. The reasons have been clearly given.

    At this stage op you are basically just repeating yourself ad nauseam and refusing to take on board any differing viewpoints.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #34
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,290 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Just to add one point here. A few years ago I enquired if it was possible to ask posters if they were re-regs via PM. I was told by someone in the office at that time that I could not even do that because of data protection rules and the rationale behind introduction of the close account facility. I've not checked again recently as I've had no particular reason to do so, but I'm not seeing any reason for the explanation to differ.


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    #35
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 15,134 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Beasty wrote: »
    Just to add one point here. A few years ago I enquired if it was possible to ask posters if they were re-regs via PM. I was told by someone in the office at that time that I could not even do that because of data protection rules and the rationale behind introduction of the close account facility. I've not checked again recently as I've had no particular reason to do so, but I'm not seeing any reason for the explanation to differ.

    If that is the situation with the office due to data protection, I don`t see how it would be a breach one poster asking another to clarify if they were a rereg or not ?


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    #36
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,290 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    charlie14 wrote: »
    If that is the situation with the office due to data protection, I don`t see how it would be a breach one poster asking another to clarify if they were a rereg or not ?
    It was what I was advised, as I said it was several years ago. My recollection was it was something to do with the right to be forgotten. It was discussed in one of the private mods forums, but I'm not sure I'll be able to search it out to confirm what was said given the passage of time and my high post count.


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    #37
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Beasty wrote: »
    Just to add one point here. A few years ago I enquired if it was possible to ask posters if they were re-regs via PM. I was told by someone in the office at that time that I could not even do that because of data protection rules and the rationale behind introduction of the close account facility. I've not checked again recently as I've had no particular reason to do so, but I'm not seeing any reason for the explanation to differ.

    I won't dispute that's what you were told.

    Do you think that the protection of the status of someones personal data would be affected by my asking them if they're a re reg?

    How?

    Personal data protection relates to the protection of actual real world personal details that have been volunteered and accepted for use here by a data controller, not to someone's chosen nom de plume.


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    #38
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 15,134 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Beasty wrote: »
    It was what I was advised, as I said it was several years ago. My recollection was it was something to do with the right to be forgotten. It was discussed in one of the private mods forums, but I'm not sure I'll be able to search it out to confirm what was said given the passage of time and my high post count.

    Like Going Forward I am not doubting what you say, but I don`t see where the problem would be regarding data protection in asking a poster if they are a rereg.


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    #39
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,290 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Say you actually were a completely new account. It is not going to be a particularly pleasant introduction to Boards if you feel you are facing immediate interrogation from other users

    Equally say you have re-reg'd with good reason. Maybe you disclosed something personal on the old account and want to detach yourself from that account. You then get similar interrogation when you start posting. If you answer your new ID is blown. If you don't you then face suspicion you may be a re-reg because someone has speculated that may be the case when frankly it's absolutely none of their business.

    If you think someone may have re-reg'd to disrupt a particular thread they are unlikely to own up anyway. So as already stated all you have to do is report your suspicions and the mods can act as they see fit


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    #40
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 15,134 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Beasty wrote: »
    Say you actually were a completely new account. It is not going to be a particularly pleasant introduction to Boards if you feel you are facing immediate interrogation from other users

    Equally say you have re-reg'd with good reason. Maybe you disclosed something personal on the old account and want to detach yourself from that account. You then get similar interrogation when you start posting. If you answer your new ID is blown. If you don't you then face suspicion you may be a re-reg because someone has speculated that may be the case when frankly it's absolutely none of their business.

    If you think someone may have re-reg'd to disrupt a particular thread they are unlikely to own up anyway. So as already stated all you have to do is report your suspicions and the mods can act as they see fit

    To be perfectly honest with you the impression I get is that regardless of the reason for someone re-registering, and that includes my point about trolling due to the anonymity a new name would give that would be spotted by a mod under the original name as such, nobody really has any interest in doing anything about it.


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    #41
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,066 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Beasty wrote: »
    Equally say you have re-reg'd with good reason. Maybe you disclosed something personal on the old account and want to detach yourself from that account. You then get similar interrogation when you start posting. If you answer your new ID is blown. If you don't you then face suspicion you may be a re-reg because someone has speculated that may be the case when frankly it's absolutely none of their business.

    Exactly.

    And this is then potentially violating the rights of a person to privacy which is explicitly against the rules

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #42
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,066 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    charlie14 wrote: »
    To be perfectly honest with you the impression I get is that regardless of the reason for someone re-registering, and that includes my point about trolling due to the anonymity a new name would give that would be spotted by a mod under the original name as such, nobody really has any interest in doing anything about it.

    Well thats nonsense - if someone reregisters to troll they generally get pulled up on it by moderators

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #43
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 15,134 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Well thats nonsense - if someone reregisters to troll they generally get pulled up on it by moderators

    .....on which they would be pulled up much faster under the original name where the mod can view their past posts, rather than them re-appearing as a new poster on a thread.


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    #44
    The Hill Billy
    Registered Users Posts: 22,775 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    Going Forward wrote: »
    Show me the rule please, that states I can't ask someone.
    See post #1 (your own) which quotes the forum charter rule.
    See post #2 which quotes the site rule from the ToU.
    Going Forward wrote: »
    Hullabaloo thinks there's no such rule.
    No disrespect to m'learned friend, but see above.
    Going Forward wrote: »
    Why are you dragging anonymity into it??
    Because the site Terms of Use is very specific about respecting the anonymity of our members.
    Going Forward wrote: »
    How does asking someone if they're a re reg affect their anonymity or reveal their identity?
    Because by asking such a question it will inevitably lead to speculation about their former identity (see bit about anonymity above) which is:
    (a) none of your business
    (b) likely to drag the discussion off-topic


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    #45
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Exactly.

    And this is then potentially violating the rights of a person to privacy which is explicitly against the rules

    But nobody is explaining HOW asking a basic question to ascertain whether I have previously interacted with someone is potentially violating their personal privacy or data protection rules, other than citing this example of a rereg who would themselves be at fault for having posted something personally identifiable about themselves which they shouldn't have done in the first place if they were abiding by the terms of use.

    No one is seeking to publically unmask an anonymous user.


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    #46
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    The Hill Billy wrote: »
    See post #1 (your own) which quotes the forum charter rule.
    See post #2 which quotes the site rule from the ToU.

    No disrespect to m'learned friend, but see above.

    I would say that asking is markedly different than openly speculating.

    It could be said that I intend to ask to stifle any speculation.


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    #47
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,066 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Going Forward wrote: »
    I would say that asking is markedly different than openly speculating.

    It could be said that I intend to ask to stifle any speculation.

    Asking IS speculating and frankly that is nonsense because asking only leads to more speculation.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #48
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,066 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Going Forward wrote: »
    But nobody is explaining HOW asking a basic question to ascertain whether I have previously interacted with someone is potentially violating their personal privacy or data protection rules, other than citing this example of a rereg who would themselves be at fault for having posted something personally identifiable about themselves which they shouldn't have done in the first place if they were abiding by the terms of use.

    No one is seeking to publically unmask an anonymous user.

    Where does it say in the terms of use that a poster cant post information that could identify themselves?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #49
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,290 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Going Forward wrote: »
    I would say that asking is markedly different than openly speculating.

    It could be said that I intend to ask to stifle any speculation.
    That's a pretty ridiculous position to take. The mere asking lends itself to speculation by others. Why do you consider it necessary or appropriate to ask in an open forum where everyone else can see? It turns a discussion on a particular topic into a discussion of a specific poster.


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    #50
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    charlie14 wrote: »
    To be perfectly honest with you the impression I get is that regardless of the reason for someone re-registering, and that includes my point about trolling due to the anonymity a new name would give that would be spotted by a mod under the original name as such, nobody really has any interest in doing anything about it.
    You'd be incorrect on that, there is an extensive thread in the mods forums which track people who rereg.
    charlie14 wrote: »
    .....on which they would be pulled up much faster under the original name where the mod can view their past posts, rather than them re-appearing as a new poster on a thread.

    Again incorrect, if someone has closed an account due to warnings/infractions/bans and rereged, the record from the previous account is applied and they get actioned more severely than a new account would ordinarily be.
    Going Forward wrote: »
    But nobody is explaining HOW asking a basic question to ascertain whether I have previously interacted with someone is potentially violating their personal privacy or data protection rules, other than citing this example of a rereg who would themselves be at fault for having posted something personally identifiable about themselves which they shouldn't have done in the first place if they were abiding by the terms of use.

    No one is seeking to publically unmask an anonymous user.
    For me it comes down to 1. derailing a thread, 2. the fact that anytime someone reports someone as a rereg it's genuinely 50/50 if they are correct.

    Why the need to "out" them? Can you imagine a thread where lets say I was active and rereg.

    Someone asks "are you Stheno" and the thread goes completely off the rails.

    I changed username a few years ago due to a privacy issue, if I'd done a rereg on it I'd worry about being asked if I was my former name tbh.
    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Asking IS speculating and frankly that is nonsense because asking only leads to more speculation.

    Agreed asking is speculation, and usually wrong speculation.


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    #51
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Where does it say in the terms of use that a poster cant post information that could identify themselves?

    It recommends that they shouldn't do it:
    You are encouraged to exercise discretion when providing personal information about yourself on boards.ie. Any personal information which you volunteer in your public profile or post on the forums will be available worldwide to anyone with access to the website.

    We recommend you never post your name, address, telephone number email address or anything else that may lead someone to identify you if this is something you are uncomfortable with.

    Please note that certain information (such as photographs) which you may choose to provide might reveal your gender, ethnic origin, nationality, religion and/or sexual orientation.

    boards.ie does not delete all posts from any member on request, so if you have publically posted identifying information about yourself, then it will remain on the site.

    And, I think this is appropriate to our conversation, because it divests boards of any responsibility to warrant the veracity of any identity of any user or what they may post.

    Hence my concern at what I see as a deliberate blurring of lines between what are actual personal details and anonymous entities.

    Boards.ie Limited does not give any warranty or make any representation as to the identity of any user on boards.ie

    Any use of, or reliance placed on, any content or Materials posted to boards.ie by any user, or obtained by you through boards.ie, is at your own risk.


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    #52
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,066 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    To me this whole thing is really 100% clearcut

    1 The terms of use explicitly ban it
    You agree, through use of this service, NOT to use boards.ie to:
    identify or speculate as to the identity of any anonymous or pseudonymous user

    2 The point of discussions here is to discuss the topic not to discuss other users.

    Asking "are you a rereg?" is speculation and can lead to more speculation and a complete derailment of a discussion off topic

    I honestly cant see any argument at all that this isnt breaking terms of use.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #53
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,066 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Going Forward wrote: »
    It recommends that they shouldn't do it:

    And, I think this is appropriate to our conversation, because it divests boards of any responsibility to warrant the veracity of any identity of any user or what they may post.

    Hence my concern at what I see as a deliberate blurring of lines between what are actual personal details and anonymous entities.

    That is a reccomendation only. It is not against the terms of use to divulge information that can personally identify you.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #54
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Beasty wrote: »
    That's a pretty ridiculous position to take. The mere asking lends itself to speculation by others.

    Therefore, the mere asking is, in itself not speculation.

    Thanks ;)


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    #55
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 15,134 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Stheno wrote: »
    You'd be incorrect on that, there is an extensive thread in the mods forums which track people who rereg.



    Again incorrect, if someone has closed an account due to warnings/infractions/bans and rereged, the record from the previous account is applied and they get actioned more severely than a new account would ordinarily be.


    Your reply goes to the heart of my original problem with reregs and even though I asked would it not be an idea for mods or admin if informed of a suspicion by a poster that someone was a rereg and using such to troll, could mods on the relevant threads not be advised to be aware of such.

    The reason I was incorrect in these two posts of mine you highlight, is basically with all the replies and posts from mods here, you are the only one to acknowledge that it is being done already without any poster having to point out their suspicions of a rereg.

    Thank you for that.


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    #56
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Going Forward wrote: »
    Therefore, the mere asking is, in itself not speculation.

    Thanks ;)

    Well I'd see it as speculating tbh, instead of taking a new account on it's merits, asking "are you Stheno2" is speculating that a new account is a rereg imo.


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    #57
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    charlie14 wrote: »
    Your reply goes to the heart of my original problem with reregs and even though I asked would it not be an idea for mods or admin if informed of a suspicion by a poster that someone was a rereg and using such to troll, could mods on the relevant threads not be advised to be aware of such.

    The reason I was incorrect in these two posts of mine you highlight, is basically with all the replies and posts from mods here, you are the only one to acknowledge that it is being done already without any poster having to point out their suspicions of a rereg.

    Thank you for that.

    Mods actively look to identify posters who are reregs tbh.

    We also appreciate getting pms from posters about potential reregs, I'd one such pm today and I've escalated it to the admins to investigate.

    I know in the cafe, when we have a rereg, one of us will post it in the cafe mods forum so we are all aware of it and I imagine that applies across the site.

    Sometimes though mods/admins miss reregs and it's great to have users pm us or report them.

    If you are not comfortable with reporting because you believe a mod might be biased towards a rereg the option is there to pm a mod that you don't believe is biased and ask them to raise it.


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    #58
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,066 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Going Forward wrote: »
    Therefore, the mere asking is, in itself not speculation.

    Thanks ;)

    Thats completely twisting the words around to reach a different conclusion to be honest.

    the way I see it - asking is speculation - I have seen absolutely no counter argument that would convince me otherwise.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #59
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    That is a reccomendation only. It is not against the terms of use to divulge information that can personally identify you.

    It's recommended in the terms of use and for obvious reasons.

    You do regularly snip posts that contain potentially personally identifiable information don't you?

    Should they actually be left intact?


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    #60
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,290 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Going Forward wrote: »
    You do regularly snip posts that contain potentially personally identifiable information don't you?
    If posted by the individual in question I don't unless asked to do so. I may snip telephone numbers or e-mail addresses simply to protect users from spam.

    It would be very easy for anyone who wanted to work out who I am, as there is plenty of personally identifiable information I have posted on this site.

    However it's not OK for anyone else to post such information in connection with anyone who has not "outed" themselves. That will certainly be snipped.


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    #61
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,066 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Going Forward wrote: »
    It's recommended in the terms of use and for obvious reasons.

    You do regularly snip posts that contain potentially personally identifiable information don't you?

    Should they actually be left intact?

    Not regularly no

    If someone posts a photo or other identifiable information I generally wouldnt snip it - thats their choice. The only thing I would tend to snip is phone numbers really.

    At the end of the day it has been explained to you numerous times by many posters why the rule is in place.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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