"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

neonsofa

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not this time. When the first Tuam news came out two years ago, I was still trading at markets etc and this was always going to be one episode too far. Attacking babies?

The Church as an institution?

If you are thinking in terms of physical punishment?

They need to be stripped of their assets. Still not paid their abuse fines etc.

Mother Teresa was the same. Starving babies...

I'm sorry but if the institutional cover up of abuse of living breathing children was not "an episode too far" then what makes you think this will be?

please helpThank YOU

Ireland will never change narrow minded bigoted people in power . all I can remember of my school days was been beaten and kicked and tortured by school teachers in the 1980s in school 1984 and the people who did that me live in big posh homes what in the news today in tuam in Galway has me thinking Ireland has and will never change its the same people in power in 2017 very sad story

brevity

When I read of honour killings that take place in India/Iraq/Pakistan I sometimes wonder how someone could be so cruel to their own children/family and think how that couldn't happen here.

The fact that the Catholic church brain washed people to think that the best thing to do with their kids was to give them away or threatened them to give their kids away is absolutely disgusting.

carolinej

carolinej wrote: »

Truly shocking, horrendous & deeply heart breaking. I just cannot understand the mindset of those nuns tasked with looking after children and their mother's who were alone, far from home, scared & vulnerable, and why these "brides of God" were so so cruel and heartless to the plight of innocent babies. I just cannot fathom or get my head around it.

Anytime I pick up a baby, all I want to do is cuddle & protect. As women, where was their maternal loving & nurturing? Did they leave it at the gate when they took their vows, were they bitter they were nuns and would have preferred to be married? Was it a power trip over unmarried mothers who were shunned by family. Why Why Why and Yet, not all families banished their daughter to M&B homes.

I have a relation who had a baby back in the 1960's and she was neither sent to a home or had to give the baby up. She reared him at home with her family until she married herself and husband took on her child as his own. And this happened in rural 1960's Irl. She had several uncles who were priests and a cousin who was a nun (who was buried in Goldengate cemetery, my parents were at her funeral, said it was a horrible place) so maybe on some level it was known if she was sent away the baby would be given up for adoption. I don't know.

Goldenbridge Convent I mean, Not Goldengate....

juno10353

There are approx 800 death certificates for the babies who died in this mother and baby home, the burial site had never been found. The babies were not interred in local cemeteries. This has lead to this site being excavated. It would appear that the bodies of these babies were just disposed of in the sewage pit and not given a proper or christian burial. It remains to be seen how many poor children were abandoned at this site and are there more sites. Approx 800 certified deaths unaccounted for.

KKkitty

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not this time. When the first Tuam news came out two years ago, I was still trading at markets etc and this was always going to be one episode too far. Attacking babies?

The Church as an institution?

If you are thinking in terms of physical punishment?

They need to be stripped of their assets. Still not paid their abuse fines etc.

Mother Teresa was the same. Starving babies...

The church and state should be separate entities at this stage. The only real way you can hurt the CC is financially it seems. Strip them of assets while the investigation is ongoing and keep stripping them of assets til justice prevails. Whatever happened to these poor babies, whether it be murder or sudden infant death syndrome, they deserved better than what they got. On top of being forced to give up her first born for adoption my mother lost another baby at 5 months due to cot death. The priest at the time wouldn't allow my parents to put a headstone over the grave because in his words my brother didn't live a long enough life. That happened in the early 80's.

pilly

juno10353 wrote: »

There are approx 800 death certificates for the babies who died in this mother and baby home, the burial site had never been found. The babies were not interred in local cemeteries. This has lead to this site being excavated. It would appear that the bodies of these babies were just disposed of in the sewage pit and not given a proper or christian burial. It remains to be seen how many poor children were abandoned at this site and are there more sites. Approx 800 certified deaths unaccounted for.

I think you posted this earlier juno.

pilly

KKkitty wrote: »

The church and state should be separate entities at this stage. The only real way you can hurt the CC is financially it seems. Strip them of assets while the investigation is ongoing and keep stripping them of assets til justice prevails. Whatever happened to these poor babies, whether it be murder or sudden infant death syndrome, they deserved better than what they got. On top of being forced to give up her first born for adoption my mother lost another baby at 5 months due to cot death. The priest at the time wouldn't allow my parents to put a headstone over the grave because in his words my brother didn't live a long enough life. That happened in the early 80's.

Hurting them financially is not the only way. They can be sent to prison. Has their actually ever been a nun sent to prison in this country? I've never heard of it.

jimgoose

KKkitty wrote: »

...my mother lost another baby at 5 months due to cot death. The priest at the time wouldn't allow my parents to put a headstone over the grave because in his words my brother didn't live a long enough life. That happened in the early 80's.

That priest should have been dragged by the head of hair from the church and strung up by his ankes from an ESB pole for a couple of days. :mad:

I think people are beginning to vote with their feet with regards the Catholic Church.

Growing up in the 90s our church was stuffed of a Sunday morning but attitudes are changing and attendances have dwindled significantly. The local priest complained that not many of the confirmation class were turning up for mass recently. Our population has probably remained the same over the last two decades or so. Not a big sample granted but perhaps a more indicative stat is the fact that Finglas are scaling down the local Catholic Church to a smaller church that accommodates 300 people from a one that accomodated 3000. Now i cant imagine that Finglas population has declined much over the years (increased if anything)

juno10353

If this burial site is confirmed to be that of those innocent children who had death certificates signed, what can the religous order responsible for their burial be charged with. I mean by that, what is the law regarding burials. It is horrific what has taken place, but do we have laws to cover it. I sincerely hope so

Shurimgreat

I know the temptation will be to blame the church and religious institutions again, but wider society shares equal blame.

These mothers and their children were failed by everyone in society including the church, politicians, state bodies, civil servants and their own families.

Having a baby out of wedlock could at the time bring shame but also attract the worst kind of gossip and ostracisation, perpetrated often by neighbours and ordinary citizens.

My own view is the politicians of the era up to and including the likes of Devalera must take a large amount of the blame, for giving the church free reign with zero oversight. The reverence shown to the church by politicians went way too far. Only the likes of Noel Browne had the courage to stand up to them. Most of the other politicians were sheep who never raised their voices.

KKkitty

jimgoose wrote: »

That priest should have been dragged by the head of hair from the church and strung up by his ankes from an ESB pole for a couple of days. :mad:

Without a doubt. The CC have a lot to answer for in this country and others.

pilly

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I know the temptation will be to blame the church and religious institutions again, but wider society shares equal blame.

These mothers and their children were failed by everyone in society including the church, politicians, state bodies, civil servants and their own families.

Having a baby out of wedlock could at the time bring shame but also attract the worst kind of gossip and ostracisation, perpetrated often by neighbours and ordinary citizens.

My own view is the politicians of the era up to and including the likes of Devalera must take a large amount of the blame, for giving the church free reign with zero oversight. The reverence shown to the church by politicians went way too far. Only the likes of Noel Browne had the courage to stand up to them. Most of the other politicians were sheep who never raised their voices.

But who physically threw these babies without sin into a septic tank?

I agree the are a lot of people to blame but in Ireland we're too fond of looking at the "big picture" and have tribunals etc. to end up at a point where the "system" is to blame and not any individual.

Individual responsibility for our own actions has to come in to being and the only way that will happen is if there's consequences for those actions like jail sentences.

RDM_83 again

Does anybody have links to the actual reports findings or is it only preliminary so far because something struck me as odd, they are talking about Radiocarbon dating but also remains from the 1950's, I've forgotten most of my C14 theory but AFAIK post the first big atmospheric nuclear bomb tests its becomes unreliable.
That said it should be easy enough for them to obtain a working date from the stratigraphy of the site.

seamus wrote: »

Yes, of course. But the mortality rates in these homes were 2 - 3 times the national average.

In a place that was masquerading as a care home for mothers and children, a child mortality rate that's multiples of the national average can only happen if there was severe, even deliberate mistreatment of the residents.

I know this will come across as defending the church but a mortality rate of 2/3 times the national average while indicating poor provision of care and neglect doesn't necessarily equal a deliberate policy does it?
e.g even today a difference in social class results in raised infant mortality rates of 1/3rd.

Its also very much not a uniquely Irish or Catholic thing
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29765623 (swiss)
The many scandals relating to English childrens homes and in particular the Isle of Man.
The native "schools" in the Commonwealth countries
The Swedish attempt at building a new society

In terms of treating disadvantaged children terribly post Independence Ireland is not a unique outlier, what might be more unique though is the treatment of the dead, I've not heard of anything similar to the Cilliní thing continuing into such a modern period.

Varik

juno10353 wrote: »

If this burial site is confirmed to be that of those innocent children who had death certificates signed, what can the religous order responsible for their burial be charged with. I mean by that, what is the law regarding burials. It is horrific what has taken place, but do we have laws to cover it. I sincerely hope so

What was the law back then?

Watched the last half of a "call the midwives" episode and hadn't a clue what was going on with a burial, it's set in the early 60s and apparently babies who died then(in England and to married parents) were buried at the feet in an adult strangers in their coffin. Don't even think they would be put on the grave stone.

If that was the norm in the 60s in England I don't know what would be expected or done in 3rd world Ireland.

please helpThank YOU

Deleted User wrote: »

I think people are beginning to vote with their feet with regards the Catholic Church.

Growing up in the 90s our church was stuffed of a Sunday morning but attitudes are changing and attendances have dwindled significantly. The local priest complained that not many of the confirmation class were turning up for mass recently. Our population has probably remained the same over the last two decades or so. Not a big sample granted but perhaps a more indicative stat is the fact that Finglas are scaling down the local Catholic Church to a smaller church that accommodates 300 people from a one that accomodated 3000. Now i cant imagine that Finglas population has declined much over the years (increased if anything)

is not just the catholic church priest who are to blame I know two priest who have helped the poor people in poverty in the 1970s to 2000s while society turned there backs on them.

RobertKK

Bargain Blake wrote: »

Anyone want to take an intelligent guess at how many people will be charged with any crimes for what amounts to nothing short of genocide?

I would guess most, if not all of the people responsible are now dead since this particular mother and baby home ran from 1925 to 1961.
1961 is 56 years ago.

Responding to the development, Children's Minister Katherine Zappone said it was "very sad and disturbing news".
"It was not unexpected as there were claims about human remains on the site over the last number of years.
"Up to now we had rumours. Now we have confirmation that the remains are there, and that they date back to the time of the Mother and Baby Home, which operated in Tuam from 1925 to 1961," she said.

Snickers Man

dav3 wrote: »

You are indeed being facetious, you are also being disingenuous. This is not a recent development. Stories surrounding these homes have circulated for decades. Babies sold, babies given up for adoption without the mother’s consent, babies handed over for medical experiments.

Sorry. That's just a load of non sequiturs one after the other.

dav3 wrote: »

Until then, we do know that a significant number of babies were thrown into a pit

Yes. Dead bodies were disposed of in a perfunctory and callous way. That's your story.

If I really wanted to be facetious I would make up a banner headline saying.

"Official: 'Babies buried in septic tank' story is bollox!!!"

Which it is. Now let's remind ourselves of the time line of events. Ms Corless, a local historian, was curious as to the fate of the people who died while resident at the home. There was no public memorial or acknowledgement anywhere in the town. So over a period of years at her own expense and with her own diligence she tracked down the official records of deaths reported in the Mother and Baby home and came up with a number. Fair play to her for a thorough and worthy piece of research.

She published her findings in a local history journal. She tried to interest the national press. And was met with indifference.

This is not a cover up. This is (I'm guessing) overworked editors saying: "What's the story? The deaths were not covered up. They were reported to the authorities and recorded. The "news hook" is that there's no headstones?? Do me a favour. "

Then the story emerges about the two little boys forty years ago finding some bones in what had been a septic tank. So people put two and two together (I'm not saying Ms Corless was responsible for this) and we get the "Babies dumped in a septic tank" story. This was the little bit of bull**** that caused the story to flower and spread across the world faster than a rhododendron scourge in Killarney National Park.

And that part of the story has now been exposed as untrue. There have been no remains found in the septic tank. (Read the statement from the Commission)

The facts of the story so far are that several hundred deaths occurred at a Mother and Baby Home during its years of operation. That the minimum (so far as I know and nobody has ventured other information) legal requirements concerning notification of authorities were met and that the bodies were disposed of without ceremony or acknowledgement in the most convenient place. Which seems to have been a long disused (I've seen this written about elsewhere but can't recall) compartmentalised structure which had been a waste-water or cess pit many years before the site became a home. It was NOT a working septic tank.

That doesn't reflect well on the church as a church. It is also a tragic illustration of how those who couldn't afford a decent undertaker were disposed of after death down through the centuries. (Ever seen Amadeus? The funeral scene? Even Mozart was dumped in a mass grave because he was penniless at the time of his death)

That's it. When you strip it down to its essentials. Poor people get perfunctory treatment in death. But Genocide? Holocaust? Murder?

Calm down. Please.

Shurimgreat

brevity wrote: »

When I read of honour killings that take place in India/Iraq/Pakistan I sometimes wonder how someone could be so cruel to their own children/family and think how that couldn't happen here.

The fact that the Catholic church brain washed people to think that the best thing to do with their kids was to give them away or threatened them to give their kids away is absolutely disgusting.

Good point. Although I think while some of it was related to shame, some of it was to do with the fact parents/grandparents might have no means of looking after the child and also no way of putting them up for adoption. The mothers in these cases were vulnerable, probably not in a great state of mental health and faced with being ruined and not a great "catch" to put it crudely for any man. The life prospects of an unmarried mother was poor I'd say in those days.

That doesn't excuse the way the babies and mothers were treated in the homes however. I for one can't understand how this was allowed to go on for 40 years and no-one shouted stop.

pilly

RobertKK wrote: »

I would guess most, if not all of the people responsible are now dead since this particular mother and baby home ran from 1925 to 1961.
1961 is 56 years ago.

Plenty of 80 and 90 year old nuns alive believe me, they didn't die young in the most part. Because they looked after themselves very well and still do.

Shurimgreat

Is there any way to trace who the nuns were in the home? If only to provide witness testimony.

The law around neglect in those days might have been a grey area. It seems like a lot of these babies were starved to death, possibly even deliberately.

pilly

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Is there any way to trace who the nuns were in the home? If only to provide witness testimony.

The law around neglect in those days might have been a grey area. It seems like a lot of these babies were starved to death, possibly even deliberately.

I don't know, the letter from Terry Prone seems to state that none of the Bon Secours sisters worked there but I find that hard to believe. Some of them have to be still alive.

Doesn't really matter what the law was. Human decency doesn't need a law to be carried out.

RobertKK

pilly wrote: »

Plenty of 80 and 90 year old nuns alive believe me, they didn't die young in the most part. Because they looked after themselves very well and still do.

I don't think a 24 year old nun would be the most responsible for this given that would be her age when it closed if she is now 80 years old, a 34 year old a much stronger case but there is a but, but the mother superior who held the power is probably dead, and she would have been the person most responsible, and she was probably much older than 34 in 1961.

Shurimgreat

There seems to be a pattern with religious institutions taking in people, promising the government they would look after them in exchange for cash, and then failing to fulfil this promise.

I hope there is a criminal investigation into this. I know the main perpetrators are probably dead, but some sort of criminal investigation would be worthwhile.

lawred2

Is anyone actually surprised?

pilly

Why has it taken so long from the initial findings to now?

elperello

valoren wrote: »

Statement

The Bon Secours sisters are fully committed to the work of the Commission regarding the mother and baby home in Tuam. On the closing of the Home in 1961 all the records for the Home were returned to Galway County Council who are the owners and occupiers of the lands of the Home. We can therefore make no comment on today’s announcement, other than to confirm our continued cooperation with and support for the work of the Commission in seeking the truth about the home.

Very cold and matter of fact.

marklazarcovic

in my opinion, any persons involved in the cover up of this,be it back then ,or now,who had information this went on and instead of offering the information up hid it,or refused comment, be they lawmen,clergy,civilian, should have their assets taken from them and sold,with all funds given to the families of those affected ,if they wish,or to fund current young childrens homes.

the only thing that scares people is loosing money or assets, they aint doing jail, id love if the church had all its assets taken from them and used for good,and the same to those who facilitated their abuse of power.

scumbags.

please helpThank YOU

this was a money making industry in Tuam in Galway like the lunatic asylums in Ireland also money making industry in 1800s. society in Ireland we have the Grace case in Waterford this year also a money making industry. and the list go on and on but the rich people this dos not happened to them its all the poor and its all about money the root of all evil the people who do this are still here but just under new names so called government agencies charities its still here in Ireland

valoren

Shurimgreat wrote: »

There seems to be a pattern with religious institutions like these taking in people, promising the government they would look after them in exchange for cash, and then failing to fulfil this promise.

I hope there is a criminal investigation into this. I know the main perpetrators are probably dead, but some sort of criminal investigation would be worthwhile.

Agreed.

I've always believed that reputation is everything. It means more than power, of controlling people. More than money, by accruing vast sums after vows of poverty, using children and babies as commodities for adoptions.

Seeing that the Bons Secours Sisters are very adept at employing sociopathic PR representation to weasel out of responsibility and accountability indicates that they are fully aware of the dangers of having their reputation damaged. It is the very reason PR itself exists.

While those individuals who are ultimately responsible may be dead, the orders they represented, who operated under a framework of neglect and abuse, can still be held accountable and have their reputations irretrievably damaged in our society.

lazybones32

Graces7 wrote: »

This is not coming from the press. Read the article ?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/latest-other-mother-and-baby-homes-must-also-be-investigated-779840.html

Many of us have known much of this for years as truth and fact. Involved with survivors.

The day we stop being upset at atrocities?

Two years ago RC forums tried to dismiss the Tuam discoveries as a hoax .

There are no exaggerations here; clear scientific fact. No hoax.

No-one has said it was a hoax but I am saying that certain media outlets, printed false information and called it the truth. Not about the just under 800 minors who died and were buried but about the distortion that 800 children/babies died (or were killed?) and then were dumped in a disused septic tank. The part about being dumped in a septic tank is what the Irish Media outlets were forced to print a retraction to...and yet if you read the post below, the misinformation is still accepted as fact. I've no issue with people being angry but at least be angry over what did happen and not what didn't. We'll never get to the truth if there are lies being peddled.

juno10353 wrote: »

There are approx 800 death certificates for the babies who died in this mother and baby home, the burial site had never been found. The babies were not interred in local cemeteries. This has lead to this site being excavated. It would appear that the bodies of these babies were just disposed of in the sewage pit and not given a proper or christian burial. It remains to be seen how many poor children were abandoned at this site and are there more sites. Approx 800 certified deaths unaccounted for.

nice_guy80

Yet we still leave our children in the care of the religious faiths, via the primary school patronage system

completely bonkers

seamus

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I know this will come across as defending the church but a mortality rate of 2/3 times the national average while indicating poor provision of care and neglect doesn't necessarily equal a deliberate policy does it?

My bad, I did mean to say, "perhaps even deliberate". I didn't mean to suggest that it must have been deliberate, just that I believe the difference is stark enough to be worth investigating if there was a policy of deliberate mistreatment.

pilly

lazybones32 wrote: »

No-one has said it was a hoax but I am saying that certain media outlets, printed false information and called it the truth. Not about the just under 800 minors who died and were buried but about the distortion that 800 children/babies died (or were killed?) and then were dumped in a disused septic tank. The part about being dumped in a septic tank is what the Irish Media outlets were forced to print a retraction to...and yet if you read the post below, the misinformation is still accepted as fact. I've no issue with people being angry but at least be angry over what did happen and not what didn't. We'll never get to the truth if there are lies being peddled.

And what difference is there between a septic tank and disused septic tank in your opinion? The babies were disposed of in the most disgusting way whatever way you look at it.

KKkitty

My mother went to her grave without being reunited with her son but how many mothers are alive today that hoped to meet their children again. This is a worrying time for those mothers. I really feel for all of them. Just looking at films or documentaries about what they faced just because they had babies outside marriage is harrowing. It was because of god fearing Catholic relations of my mother's that she was sent away. Being made to think that having a baby without a husband was a sin. The priests, nuns and anyone else who was responsible for this should be named and shamed. The state needs to form a backbone and stand up for all the women who were downtrodden for so long.

dav3

Snickers Man wrote: »

Calm down. Please.

The more you post, the more the mask slips. You can pontificate in this thread right to the end, but it’s certainly not going to win you many fans. The people have a fair idea at this stage the severity of this issue.

When you continually ask people to ‘calm down’ are you directing this at people within this thread debating the issues with facts, or the people who are still waiting for justice over half a century later?

The majority of your post is irrelevant. However there are a couple of lines that I will quote.

Snickers Man wrote: »

This is not a cover up. This is (I'm guessing)…

…The facts of the story so far are that several hundred deaths occurred at a Mother and Baby Home during its years of operation. That the minimum (so far as I know and nobody has ventured other information) legal requirements concerning notification of authorities were met and that the bodies were disposed of without ceremony or acknowledgement in the most convenient place. Which seems to have been a long disused (I've seen this written about elsewhere but can't recall) compartmentalised structure which had been a waste-water or cess pit many years before the site became a home. It was NOT a working septic tank. 

I will once again quote an email from Terry Prone written on behalf of the Bon Secours who had hired the communications clinic to carry out PR for them in relation to this.

The facts of the story so far, are that a group of people wanted to prevent this story from getting any more coverage then it already had.

Had all these deaths and ‘burials’ been legal and above board as you put in your hypothesis, it appears that these people went to extraordinary lengths to cover it up. The question would have to be asked why?

Your letter was sent on to me by the Provincial of the Irish Bon Secours congregation with instructions that I should help you.

I’m not sure how I can.

Let me explain. When the “O My God – mass grave in West of Ireland” broke in an English-owned paper (the Mail) it surprised the hell out of everybody, not least the Sisters of Bon Secours in Ireland, none of whom had ever worked in Tuam and most of whom had never heard of it.

If you come here, you’ll find no mass grave, no evidence that children were ever so buried, and a local police force casting their eyes to heaven and saying “Yeah, a few bones were found – but this was an area where Famine victims were buried. So?”

Several international TV stations have aborted their plans to make documentaries, because essentially all that can be said is “Ireland in the first half of the twentieth century was a moralistic, inward-looking, anti-feminist country of exagerrated religiousity.” Which most of us knew already.

The overwhelming majority of the surviving Sisters of Bon Secours in Ireland are over eighty. The handful (literally) still in active ministry are in their seventies. None of them is an historian or sociologist or theologian and so wouldn’t have the competence to be good on your programme. If you’d like me to point you at a few reputable historians who might be good, I’ll certainly do that.

Terry Prone (Ms)
Chairman
The Communications Clinic

please helpThank YOU

KKkitty wrote: »

My mother went to her grave without being reunited with her son but how many mothers are alive today that hoped to meet their children again. This is a worrying time for those mothers. I really feel for all of them. Just looking at films or documentaries about what they faced just because they had babies outside marriage is harrowing. It was because of god fearing Catholic relations of my mother's that she was sent away. Being made to think that having a baby without a husband was a sin. The priests, nuns and anyone else who was responsible for this should be named and shamed. The state needs to form a backbone and stand up for all the women who were downtrodden for so long.

Sorry for what happened to your mother but.its the state who did this.

Donal55

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Yet we still leave our children in the care of the religious faiths, via the primary school patronage system

completely bonkers

And all overseen by the Govt authorities. Don't let anyone think this was only a religious problem.

I heard Ms. Corless being interviewed earlier. 800 death certs were issued. No burial records. Was no garda, doctor, nurse, tradesman etc ever suspicious?

please helpThank YOU

Donal55 wrote: »

And all overseen by the Govt authorities. Don't let anyone think this was only a religious problem.

I heard Ms. Corless being interviewed earlier. 800 death certs were issued. No burial records. Was no garda, doctor, nurse, tradesman etc ever suspicious?

very well said

Neyite

I posted this on the A&A thread a couple of years ago and it's worth posting again.

Neyite wrote: »

I started to read a book - banished babies - last night about the whole area of children being adopted from these homes to Americans.

Did you know that the going rate for a child was between £2000 and £3000 per child. Or, if since charging for babies was illegal, it was a suggested donation to the Order.

In todays money that has been equated to €70,000 - €82,000. Per child.
Plus if if the mother didnt have the £100 to pay the nuns after your baby was born, you could not leave. So you stayed for 3 years to work and pay off your debt to them, despite having worked solid 12hr days in laundries or tarring roads for approx 6 months beforehand for them unpaid.

And there were no doctors fees, doctors never attended the births, no medications such as antibiotics, or pain relief were used. They didnt even spend the money on needles and thread to stitch women up if they tore during labour. (because they deserved to suffer as a penance for their sins)

Maintenance to the homes was covered by the local authorities, so the nuns didnt have to worry about the costs of upkeep.

So in addition to being paid the average industrial wage (anyone know by the way how much that was, or how much it may be in todays money?) by the state to look after these mothers and children (which would support a single family with lots and lots of children outside the walls of the home), made money from slave labour, they also got a whopper amount of money for the adoptions.

And still, the little ones were malnourished?

lawred2

If they couldn't sell them - they let them die

sondagefaux

I am adopted.

In the year I was born, unmarried mothers in Ireland were still generally sent to 'mother and child homes' to give birth where they were subject to the most appalling cruelty and neglect and in which the death rate for infants was significantly higher than that for infants born to married mothers.

In most cases, the children of unmarried mothers were adopted or otherwise taken from them without their informed consent, or with 'consent' given under pressure.

After their children had been taken away from them, many of these girls and women were effectively imprisoned and forced to work for little or nothing while incarcerated as a punishment for their supposed sins.

Some of the men and women responsible for this, mostly self-proclaimed Christians, are still alive.

The most appropriate course of action to deal with these people would be to initiate Garda investigations into their alleged crimes, bringing them to trial and sentencing those who are guilty to lengthy prison sentences.

I have little or no hope that this will happen.

I have little or no hope that children who were born at around the same time as I was, and who died of wilful neglect, will ever receive justice.

I have little or no hope that the mothers of these children, and all the mothers who were illegally harmed and coerced, will ever receive justice.

I once worked at the now-closed Cork Heritage Park, based in the grounds of the infamous Bessborough complex, part of Ireland's gulag archipelago for unmarried mothers and their children.

Some of the comments I heard about unmarried mothers and children from nuns who worked there in the mid-1990s were heartlessly cruel, the opposite of Christianity.

Some information about Bessborough and the damage and cruelty it inflicted on mothers and children:

In August of last year, this newspaper uncovered material in the Cork City and County archives which shows an official investigation into deaths in Bessborough carried out by the Cork County medical officer in 1943 confirmed an infant mortality rate of 68%.

The HSE report states that, in addition to revealing the number of babies that died between 1934 to 1953, the death record at Bessborough lists each child’s date of death, address, name, gender, age at last birthday, profession (marked as son or daughter), cause of death, and, in some cases, the duration of illness and the date when the death was registered.

The recorded causes of death in the entries include: Marasmus, gastro enteritis, congenital debility, spina bifida, congenital syphilis, pneumonia, bronchitis, congenital heart, tubercular peritiorities, cardiac shock, heat stroke, tonsillitis, and prematurity.

Inexplicably one entry which records a child dying of prematurity states that the child had turned three years of age at her last birthday.

Disturbing as these revelations are, perhaps the most shocking claim made in the HSE study is that death records may have been falsified for children so that they could be “brokered” for adoption, perhaps both at home and abroad.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/special-investigation-bessborough-mother-and-baby-home-its-time-these-womens-voices-are-finally-heard-334069.html

A 68% infant mortality rate. Think about that. over two-thirds of the babies born there died within months of birth, something which usually only happens in war zones and in times of famine.

The treatment given to these women and their children isn't ancient history, not by any means.

This is an account from a women who was sent to Bessboro as a student in late 1984:

IT WAS THE summer of 1984 and I was due to start my second year of college in UCG. I had had a brief summer romance with an Irish guy I met while working over the summer in London, he was a few years older than me and when we parted at the end of the summer we promised each other we’d stay in touch. I came home to my parents’ house all ready to start second year in college. I wasn’t feeling great and realised shortly afterwards that I was pregnant.

My parent’s initial reaction was one of complete disbelief and silence. Their silence was deafening, I knew they disapproved so much of my pregnancy that I had no choice but to go away. I was constantly reminded that I had younger siblings, I was the eldest of five children. This was not a situation that they would entertain, me being at home pregnant and my youngest sister was only eight years of age. I knew pretty much what I had to do, they arranged with the college that I could postpone my second year and re-join the following year and they set up a meeting with Cura who would “look after me”; this essentially meant me being sent away to a mother-and-baby home for my confinement.

Sent where nobody would know me
I was sent to the furthest point away from them, where no one would know me, and I was sent to Bessborough. They drove me down in October of 1984 to Bessborough mother-and-baby home which is located in Mahon, Cork. We went to the front of the house, my parents and I were brought into the parlour of the main house (the one and only time I was ever in this room) and the nuns told us all that I would be well looked after.

My parents said goodbye and left for home. I was being shown around the facilities, which were grim, it was like a mix of a school and a jail on the inside of the building, there was a courtyard in the centre which to me resembles a jail, all windows and outside stairwells, from a scene in Colditz the movie.

I was shown the laundrette where I could hand wash my clothes, and the nun who was showing me around asked me about the father of the child, I told her his religion was Protestant and that he was Irish; I had to get on my knees and say a decade of the rosary for “forgiveness”. This particular nun was very keen on changing your name when you came into the home, as an act of defiance I kept my name Sally for the whole time I was there. This set the tone of my six months in Bessborough. I shared a room with two other girls, and some nights all you could hear was sobbing coming from the corner of the room. Our sadness and grief were solely our own, it was like an inevitable doom looming and those nights were so long.

We tried to soothe each other
There were approximately 35 girls in the home when I was there, we were all in the same situation, all from different parts of the country, no one wanted us at home, and our pregnancies had to be hidden. The time was put in with reading books, typing lessons, making flower arrangements and pottery clocks. I later found out that all the goods we made – clocks and flower arrangements – were sold in Roches Stores in Patrick St in Cork, it was like we had to earn our keep. The nuns did make us do typing lessons, this was a skill we would have once we left the home. To this day I have 60 words a minute, the only one positive thing to come out of my time at Bessborough.

We spent most of our time keeping ourselves going, someone was having a bad day, we would gather and try to help and soothe each other as best we could. If someone had a visitor it kept us going for ages, they were so lucky… My parents’ lack of contact during this time, reemphasised what they wanted me to do, which was give my baby up for adoption.

The loneliness for my family was incredible. I had been the centre of attention in my own family at home, the eldest, full of life. When I got pregnant and it was like they didn’t want to know me or what I was going through. This situation had to go away, I had to go away, and my baby had to be given away. It all had to appear normal, no one could ever know.

I was terrified
Towards the end of December I started to brainwash myself about giving up the baby, I was training myself to detach, I was watching women leaving their babies every week, broken-hearted, they were utterly devastated. I had to get tough if I was going to leave my child. The nuns would regularly have the priest talk to us, about our faith and making the right decision for our children and our families, no one said you had to give up your baby, but it was totally inferred that what’s they wanted us to do.

The delivery room was on the same corridor as where the girls watched television, everyone knew when someone went into labour, you could hear the screams and we would all be terrified for ourselves and the girl who was in labour. In late March 1985, I went into labour, I was given pethidine as pain relief. I was terrified, so scared, I had never experienced pain like it. One of the nuns was a midwife and she delivered my son. He was taken from me immediately and sent to the nursery. I have never felt so vulnerable, like I was mute, my child was just taken away to another room, I was told he was perfect, when I did see him later on the next day, he was perfect.

I have never experienced such grief and despair

He was put in a nursery with all the other new babies, this was run by a deeply unpleasant nurse who would torment us new mothers, saying things like “your mother doesn’t want to feed you”, while she was feeding our babies. The nuns had encouraged us not to feed our children as this would encourage bonding and make things more difficult for us when it came the time for us to leave.

I left the home three days after he was born, I thought my heart would break, to this day I have never experienced the grief and despair I felt leaving him, I thought I would physically break in half. I know I cried for three months solid, every night I would cry myself to sleep. I think the fact I could cry saved me at the time, I could release my grief through tears.

I signed his final papers when he was six months old, I had convinced myself that it was the right decision for him.

To those who will, or have already, come to this thread in an attempt to minimise or dispute the barbarism of these institutions I simply say: fúck you.

.......

This post has been deleted.

lazybones32

pilly wrote: »

And what difference is there between a septic tank and disused septic tank in your opinion? The babies were disposed of in the most disgusting way whatever way you look at it.

Kind of proving my point there...the children were buried in a plot beside the septic tank; not quite as sensational as "800 babies dumped in a septic tank" that was peddled and later retracted (i.e. they admitted they lied in printing that part, yet the misinformation still persists).

I want to form my judgments based on the truth - don't you?

vicwatson

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Yet we still leave our children in the care of the religious faiths, via the primary school patronage system

completely bonkers

So many people in Ireland part of the problem and not part of the solution

sondagefaux

lazybones32 wrote: »

Kind of proving my point there...the children were buried in a plot beside the septic tank; not quite as sensational as "800 babies dumped in a septic tank" that was peddled and later retracted (i.e. they admitted they lied in printing that part, yet the misinformation still persists).

I want to form my judgments based on the truth - don't you?

You're not interested in the truth. You're interested in distorting and minimising.

vicwatson

Donal55 wrote: »

And all overseen by the Govt authorities. Don't let anyone think this was only a religious problem.

I heard Ms. Corless being interviewed earlier. 800 death certs were issued. No burial records. Was no garda, doctor, nurse, tradesman etc ever suspicious?

Fact. Gardai and Galway County Council knew about this mass grave in the 70's and did NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING

please helpThank YOU

Neyite wrote: »

I posted this on the A&A thread a couple of years ago and it's worth posting again.

its all about Money Money Money and has Ireland changed ?:mad: no way will it I am Sorry to say there to much money to be made in the likes of tuam Galway we are being hoodwinked by the state its not what there telling us the state its what there not telling us.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

R P McMurphy

Donal55 wrote: »

And all overseen by the Govt authorities. Don't let anyone think this was only a religious problem.

I heard Ms. Corless being interviewed earlier. 800 death certs were issued. No burial records. Was no garda, doctor, nurse, tradesman etc ever suspicious?

Surely the gardai have a case to answer here as well. If toddlers were being disposed of in this manner up until the 1960s and the gardai were oblivious or turning a blind eye then it doesn't say much for the organisation.