"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Seth Brundle

I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions on the cause of death (given the references to murder, etc). We do need to find out how they died before demanding heads.

Ninetheless, in all likelihood nothing will happen here, bar a monument and a few politicians shouting so they look good in front of voters. Maybe a bishop will ask everyone "is there anything to be said about having another mass?" and the sheep will gather and listen to him.

What do we realistically expect to happen? We treat lots of our citizens like muck so why worry about a load if poor kids from the past? What about the currently missing children? What about those ignoring abuse all around us? Things have improved but still are below where they should be. How many of us complaining now will actually do something to improve the lives of disadvantaged children?

We're feeling sanctimonious about this and rightly so. But we will continue to turn a blind eye to current disgraces!

please helpThank YOU

this is Ireland 2017 Horrific story. but nothing new and this will not be last of this in Ireland. Scandal the way Irish government agencies treat the poor in poverty .

dav3

Snickers Man wrote: »

Not doubting that they were hardly first-class medical facilities but it's quite difficult to compare statistically a home predominantly inhabited by infants/young children who were, let's face it, mainly from the poorer sections of society with attendant lower levels of health and "society in general." Hospitals have higher death rates than family homes statistically speaking. But that's because they're full of sick people.

I'm trying not to be facetious, just pointing out that statistical comparisons are difficult to carry out fairly.

You are indeed being facetious, you are also being disingenuous. This is not a recent development. Stories surrounding these homes have circulated for decades. Babies sold, babies given up for adoption without the mother’s consent, babies handed over for medical experiments.

If some of the revelations make you feel uncomfortable, I suggest taking a break and reading something a bit lighter. We will have to wait for further reports to see if the cause of deaths can be determined.

Until then, we do know that a significant number of babies were thrown into a pit, they attempted to cover this practice up and they’re still attempting to cover it up.

Graces7

lazybones32 wrote: »

This isn't exactly breaking news though, so I fail to see why someone gets upset despite this being known (to a degree) for some time.
The Gardai are still investigating, so I'll not act as judge, jury and executioner on anyone or any institution until more information is known - and I'd advise others to do the same but I won't hold my breath...

The papers used Corless' paper to run with their stories too but ended up inventing quotes and passing them off as source material. The Indo, in particular, should be viewed with very cautious eyes....I don't trust them to give the correct date.

This is not coming from the press. Read the article ?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/latest-other-mother-and-baby-homes-must-also-be-investigated-779840.html

Many of us have known much of this for years as truth and fact. Involved with survivors.

The day we stop being upset at atrocities?

Two years ago RC forums tried to dismiss the Tuam discoveries as a hoax .

There are no exaggerations here; clear scientific fact. No hoax.

Graces7

KKkitty wrote: »

My mother was in a mother and baby home in the early 70's. Whilst in labour a nun slapped her in the face because my mother dared to scream with the the pain of childbirth. The nun told her to shut up and said that's what you get for your sins. This discovery is only the tip of the iceberg. These poor babies didn't ask for this and the state should cut all ties with the CC but won't. This is an absolute disgrace but the CC will find some way out of it, they always do.

Not this time. When the first Tuam news came out two years ago, I was still trading at markets etc and this was always going to be one episode too far. Attacking babies?

The Church as an institution?

If you are thinking in terms of physical punishment?

They need to be stripped of their assets. Still not paid their abuse fines etc.

Mother Teresa was the same. Starving babies...

.......

This post has been deleted.

carolinej

Truly shocking, horrendous & deeply heart breaking. I just cannot understand the mindset of those nuns tasked with looking after children and their mother's who were alone, far from home, scared & vulnerable, and why these "brides of God" were so so cruel and heartless to the plight of innocent babies. I just cannot fathom or get my head around it.

Anytime I pick up a baby, all I want to do is cuddle & protect. As women, where was their maternal loving & nurturing? Did they leave it at the gate when they took their vows, were they bitter they were nuns and would have preferred to be married? Was it a power trip over unmarried mothers who were shunned by family. Why Why Why and Yet, not all families banished their daughter to M&B homes.

I have a relation who had a baby back in the 1960's and she was neither sent to a home or had to give the baby up. She reared him at home with her family until she married herself and husband took on her child as his own. And this happened in rural 1960's Irl. She had several uncles who were priests and a cousin who was a nun (who was buried in Goldengate cemetery, my parents were at her funeral, said it was a horrible place) so maybe on some level it was known if she was sent away the baby would be given up for adoption. I don't know.

valoren

Statement

The Bon Secours sisters are fully committed to the work of the Commission regarding the mother and baby home in Tuam. On the closing of the Home in 1961 all the records for the Home were returned to Galway County Council who are the owners and occupiers of the lands of the Home. We can therefore make no comment on today’s announcement, other than to confirm our continued cooperation with and support for the work of the Commission in seeking the truth about the home.

pilly

carolinej wrote: »

Truly shocking, horrendous & deeply heart breaking. I just cannot understand the mindset of those nuns tasked with looking after children and their mother's who were alone, far from home, scared & vulnerable, and why these "brides of God" were so so cruel and heartless to the plight of innocent babies. I just cannot fathom or get my head around it.

Anytime I pick up a baby, all I want to do is cuddle & protect. As women, where was their maternal loving & nurturing? Did they leave it at the gate when they took their vows, were they bitter they were nuns and would have preferred to be married? Was it a power trip over unmarried mothers who were shunned by family. Why Why Why and Yet, not all families banished their daughter to M&B homes.

I have a relation who had a baby back in the 1960's and she was neither sent to a home or had to give the baby up. She reared him at home with her family until she married herself and husband took on her child as his own. And this happened in rural 1960's Irl. She had several uncles who were priests and a cousin who was a nun (who was buried in Goldengate cemetery, my parents were at her funeral, said it was a horrible place) so maybe on some level it was known if she was sent away the baby would be given up for adoption. I don't know.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with a few of your points. I think they were bitter aul bitches who were jealous that they would never have sex or babies.

freedominacup

The Backwards Man wrote: »

The whole family tree of every child should be charged with murder, even they weren't even born at the time, in my opionion
Anyone else?

There's not a family in the country with clean hands on this one. The church is hugely culpable but it was aided and abetted by almost everyone from legislators to service suppliers to janitors not to mention the "families"of the poor unfortunate commited to these places . Far more people knew exactly what was going on but for any number of reasons choose to turn a blind eye.

The biggest driver of putting pregnant girls and young women in these places was protecting property. The bastard might have a claim. That term was only removed from legislation in the past decade or so. Let the family without sin cast the first stone. I know mine can't.

neonsofa

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not this time. When the first Tuam news came out two years ago, I was still trading at markets etc and this was always going to be one episode too far. Attacking babies?

The Church as an institution?

If you are thinking in terms of physical punishment?

They need to be stripped of their assets. Still not paid their abuse fines etc.

Mother Teresa was the same. Starving babies...

I'm sorry but if the institutional cover up of abuse of living breathing children was not "an episode too far" then what makes you think this will be?

please helpThank YOU

Ireland will never change narrow minded bigoted people in power . all I can remember of my school days was been beaten and kicked and tortured by school teachers in the 1980s in school 1984 and the people who did that me live in big posh homes what in the news today in tuam in Galway has me thinking Ireland has and will never change its the same people in power in 2017 very sad story

brevity

When I read of honour killings that take place in India/Iraq/Pakistan I sometimes wonder how someone could be so cruel to their own children/family and think how that couldn't happen here.

The fact that the Catholic church brain washed people to think that the best thing to do with their kids was to give them away or threatened them to give their kids away is absolutely disgusting.

carolinej

carolinej wrote: »

Truly shocking, horrendous & deeply heart breaking. I just cannot understand the mindset of those nuns tasked with looking after children and their mother's who were alone, far from home, scared & vulnerable, and why these "brides of God" were so so cruel and heartless to the plight of innocent babies. I just cannot fathom or get my head around it.

Anytime I pick up a baby, all I want to do is cuddle & protect. As women, where was their maternal loving & nurturing? Did they leave it at the gate when they took their vows, were they bitter they were nuns and would have preferred to be married? Was it a power trip over unmarried mothers who were shunned by family. Why Why Why and Yet, not all families banished their daughter to M&B homes.

I have a relation who had a baby back in the 1960's and she was neither sent to a home or had to give the baby up. She reared him at home with her family until she married herself and husband took on her child as his own. And this happened in rural 1960's Irl. She had several uncles who were priests and a cousin who was a nun (who was buried in Goldengate cemetery, my parents were at her funeral, said it was a horrible place) so maybe on some level it was known if she was sent away the baby would be given up for adoption. I don't know.

Goldenbridge Convent I mean, Not Goldengate....

juno10353

There are approx 800 death certificates for the babies who died in this mother and baby home, the burial site had never been found. The babies were not interred in local cemeteries. This has lead to this site being excavated. It would appear that the bodies of these babies were just disposed of in the sewage pit and not given a proper or christian burial. It remains to be seen how many poor children were abandoned at this site and are there more sites. Approx 800 certified deaths unaccounted for.

KKkitty

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not this time. When the first Tuam news came out two years ago, I was still trading at markets etc and this was always going to be one episode too far. Attacking babies?

The Church as an institution?

If you are thinking in terms of physical punishment?

They need to be stripped of their assets. Still not paid their abuse fines etc.

Mother Teresa was the same. Starving babies...

The church and state should be separate entities at this stage. The only real way you can hurt the CC is financially it seems. Strip them of assets while the investigation is ongoing and keep stripping them of assets til justice prevails. Whatever happened to these poor babies, whether it be murder or sudden infant death syndrome, they deserved better than what they got. On top of being forced to give up her first born for adoption my mother lost another baby at 5 months due to cot death. The priest at the time wouldn't allow my parents to put a headstone over the grave because in his words my brother didn't live a long enough life. That happened in the early 80's.

pilly

juno10353 wrote: »

There are approx 800 death certificates for the babies who died in this mother and baby home, the burial site had never been found. The babies were not interred in local cemeteries. This has lead to this site being excavated. It would appear that the bodies of these babies were just disposed of in the sewage pit and not given a proper or christian burial. It remains to be seen how many poor children were abandoned at this site and are there more sites. Approx 800 certified deaths unaccounted for.

I think you posted this earlier juno.

pilly

KKkitty wrote: »

The church and state should be separate entities at this stage. The only real way you can hurt the CC is financially it seems. Strip them of assets while the investigation is ongoing and keep stripping them of assets til justice prevails. Whatever happened to these poor babies, whether it be murder or sudden infant death syndrome, they deserved better than what they got. On top of being forced to give up her first born for adoption my mother lost another baby at 5 months due to cot death. The priest at the time wouldn't allow my parents to put a headstone over the grave because in his words my brother didn't live a long enough life. That happened in the early 80's.

Hurting them financially is not the only way. They can be sent to prison. Has their actually ever been a nun sent to prison in this country? I've never heard of it.

jimgoose

KKkitty wrote: »

...my mother lost another baby at 5 months due to cot death. The priest at the time wouldn't allow my parents to put a headstone over the grave because in his words my brother didn't live a long enough life. That happened in the early 80's.

That priest should have been dragged by the head of hair from the church and strung up by his ankes from an ESB pole for a couple of days. :mad:

I think people are beginning to vote with their feet with regards the Catholic Church.

Growing up in the 90s our church was stuffed of a Sunday morning but attitudes are changing and attendances have dwindled significantly. The local priest complained that not many of the confirmation class were turning up for mass recently. Our population has probably remained the same over the last two decades or so. Not a big sample granted but perhaps a more indicative stat is the fact that Finglas are scaling down the local Catholic Church to a smaller church that accommodates 300 people from a one that accomodated 3000. Now i cant imagine that Finglas population has declined much over the years (increased if anything)

juno10353

If this burial site is confirmed to be that of those innocent children who had death certificates signed, what can the religous order responsible for their burial be charged with. I mean by that, what is the law regarding burials. It is horrific what has taken place, but do we have laws to cover it. I sincerely hope so

Shurimgreat

I know the temptation will be to blame the church and religious institutions again, but wider society shares equal blame.

These mothers and their children were failed by everyone in society including the church, politicians, state bodies, civil servants and their own families.

Having a baby out of wedlock could at the time bring shame but also attract the worst kind of gossip and ostracisation, perpetrated often by neighbours and ordinary citizens.

My own view is the politicians of the era up to and including the likes of Devalera must take a large amount of the blame, for giving the church free reign with zero oversight. The reverence shown to the church by politicians went way too far. Only the likes of Noel Browne had the courage to stand up to them. Most of the other politicians were sheep who never raised their voices.

KKkitty

jimgoose wrote: »

That priest should have been dragged by the head of hair from the church and strung up by his ankes from an ESB pole for a couple of days. :mad:

Without a doubt. The CC have a lot to answer for in this country and others.

pilly

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I know the temptation will be to blame the church and religious institutions again, but wider society shares equal blame.

These mothers and their children were failed by everyone in society including the church, politicians, state bodies, civil servants and their own families.

Having a baby out of wedlock could at the time bring shame but also attract the worst kind of gossip and ostracisation, perpetrated often by neighbours and ordinary citizens.

My own view is the politicians of the era up to and including the likes of Devalera must take a large amount of the blame, for giving the church free reign with zero oversight. The reverence shown to the church by politicians went way too far. Only the likes of Noel Browne had the courage to stand up to them. Most of the other politicians were sheep who never raised their voices.

But who physically threw these babies without sin into a septic tank?

I agree the are a lot of people to blame but in Ireland we're too fond of looking at the "big picture" and have tribunals etc. to end up at a point where the "system" is to blame and not any individual.

Individual responsibility for our own actions has to come in to being and the only way that will happen is if there's consequences for those actions like jail sentences.

RDM_83 again

Does anybody have links to the actual reports findings or is it only preliminary so far because something struck me as odd, they are talking about Radiocarbon dating but also remains from the 1950's, I've forgotten most of my C14 theory but AFAIK post the first big atmospheric nuclear bomb tests its becomes unreliable.
That said it should be easy enough for them to obtain a working date from the stratigraphy of the site.

seamus wrote: »

Yes, of course. But the mortality rates in these homes were 2 - 3 times the national average.

In a place that was masquerading as a care home for mothers and children, a child mortality rate that's multiples of the national average can only happen if there was severe, even deliberate mistreatment of the residents.

I know this will come across as defending the church but a mortality rate of 2/3 times the national average while indicating poor provision of care and neglect doesn't necessarily equal a deliberate policy does it?
e.g even today a difference in social class results in raised infant mortality rates of 1/3rd.

Its also very much not a uniquely Irish or Catholic thing
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29765623 (swiss)
The many scandals relating to English childrens homes and in particular the Isle of Man.
The native "schools" in the Commonwealth countries
The Swedish attempt at building a new society

In terms of treating disadvantaged children terribly post Independence Ireland is not a unique outlier, what might be more unique though is the treatment of the dead, I've not heard of anything similar to the Cilliní thing continuing into such a modern period.

Varik

juno10353 wrote: »

If this burial site is confirmed to be that of those innocent children who had death certificates signed, what can the religous order responsible for their burial be charged with. I mean by that, what is the law regarding burials. It is horrific what has taken place, but do we have laws to cover it. I sincerely hope so

What was the law back then?

Watched the last half of a "call the midwives" episode and hadn't a clue what was going on with a burial, it's set in the early 60s and apparently babies who died then(in England and to married parents) were buried at the feet in an adult strangers in their coffin. Don't even think they would be put on the grave stone.

If that was the norm in the 60s in England I don't know what would be expected or done in 3rd world Ireland.

please helpThank YOU

Deleted User wrote: »

I think people are beginning to vote with their feet with regards the Catholic Church.

Growing up in the 90s our church was stuffed of a Sunday morning but attitudes are changing and attendances have dwindled significantly. The local priest complained that not many of the confirmation class were turning up for mass recently. Our population has probably remained the same over the last two decades or so. Not a big sample granted but perhaps a more indicative stat is the fact that Finglas are scaling down the local Catholic Church to a smaller church that accommodates 300 people from a one that accomodated 3000. Now i cant imagine that Finglas population has declined much over the years (increased if anything)

is not just the catholic church priest who are to blame I know two priest who have helped the poor people in poverty in the 1970s to 2000s while society turned there backs on them.

RobertKK

Bargain Blake wrote: »

Anyone want to take an intelligent guess at how many people will be charged with any crimes for what amounts to nothing short of genocide?

I would guess most, if not all of the people responsible are now dead since this particular mother and baby home ran from 1925 to 1961.
1961 is 56 years ago.

Responding to the development, Children's Minister Katherine Zappone said it was "very sad and disturbing news".
"It was not unexpected as there were claims about human remains on the site over the last number of years.
"Up to now we had rumours. Now we have confirmation that the remains are there, and that they date back to the time of the Mother and Baby Home, which operated in Tuam from 1925 to 1961," she said.

Snickers Man

dav3 wrote: »

You are indeed being facetious, you are also being disingenuous. This is not a recent development. Stories surrounding these homes have circulated for decades. Babies sold, babies given up for adoption without the mother’s consent, babies handed over for medical experiments.

Sorry. That's just a load of non sequiturs one after the other.

dav3 wrote: »

Until then, we do know that a significant number of babies were thrown into a pit

Yes. Dead bodies were disposed of in a perfunctory and callous way. That's your story.

If I really wanted to be facetious I would make up a banner headline saying.

"Official: 'Babies buried in septic tank' story is bollox!!!"

Which it is. Now let's remind ourselves of the time line of events. Ms Corless, a local historian, was curious as to the fate of the people who died while resident at the home. There was no public memorial or acknowledgement anywhere in the town. So over a period of years at her own expense and with her own diligence she tracked down the official records of deaths reported in the Mother and Baby home and came up with a number. Fair play to her for a thorough and worthy piece of research.

She published her findings in a local history journal. She tried to interest the national press. And was met with indifference.

This is not a cover up. This is (I'm guessing) overworked editors saying: "What's the story? The deaths were not covered up. They were reported to the authorities and recorded. The "news hook" is that there's no headstones?? Do me a favour. "

Then the story emerges about the two little boys forty years ago finding some bones in what had been a septic tank. So people put two and two together (I'm not saying Ms Corless was responsible for this) and we get the "Babies dumped in a septic tank" story. This was the little bit of bull**** that caused the story to flower and spread across the world faster than a rhododendron scourge in Killarney National Park.

And that part of the story has now been exposed as untrue. There have been no remains found in the septic tank. (Read the statement from the Commission)

The facts of the story so far are that several hundred deaths occurred at a Mother and Baby Home during its years of operation. That the minimum (so far as I know and nobody has ventured other information) legal requirements concerning notification of authorities were met and that the bodies were disposed of without ceremony or acknowledgement in the most convenient place. Which seems to have been a long disused (I've seen this written about elsewhere but can't recall) compartmentalised structure which had been a waste-water or cess pit many years before the site became a home. It was NOT a working septic tank.

That doesn't reflect well on the church as a church. It is also a tragic illustration of how those who couldn't afford a decent undertaker were disposed of after death down through the centuries. (Ever seen Amadeus? The funeral scene? Even Mozart was dumped in a mass grave because he was penniless at the time of his death)

That's it. When you strip it down to its essentials. Poor people get perfunctory treatment in death. But Genocide? Holocaust? Murder?

Calm down. Please.

Shurimgreat

brevity wrote: »

When I read of honour killings that take place in India/Iraq/Pakistan I sometimes wonder how someone could be so cruel to their own children/family and think how that couldn't happen here.

The fact that the Catholic church brain washed people to think that the best thing to do with their kids was to give them away or threatened them to give their kids away is absolutely disgusting.

Good point. Although I think while some of it was related to shame, some of it was to do with the fact parents/grandparents might have no means of looking after the child and also no way of putting them up for adoption. The mothers in these cases were vulnerable, probably not in a great state of mental health and faced with being ruined and not a great "catch" to put it crudely for any man. The life prospects of an unmarried mother was poor I'd say in those days.

That doesn't excuse the way the babies and mothers were treated in the homes however. I for one can't understand how this was allowed to go on for 40 years and no-one shouted stop.