"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Tilikum

greenflash wrote: »

Dying out to the extent that the vast majority of the population get their children christened into the RCC so they can have a place in church controlled schools? I'm sure they couldn't care less about falling mass attendances when education is the real cash cow.

We won't be christening our kids, and that's a fact.

Dave_The_Sheep

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Thankfully the Catholic Church is dying out.

Not fast enough.

JP Liz V1

Is it wrong to light a candle and say a prayer for those little angels

It must be hard for anyone alive who was in that home and who had a child now wondering what happened if their child is dead or alive

greenflash

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Is it wrong to light a candle and say a prayer for those little angels

A bit more superstitious nonsense is just what's needed right now.

kylith

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Is it wrong to light a candle and say a prayer for those little angels

No, it's not wrong. If it helps you, do it. You're doing no harm and it could well bring peace to the families.

Personally I'd be more inclined to pray for the nuns. If there is a god, and if that god is half decent then the people involved in the laundries are going to have a bitch of a time in the afterlife.

Cdosrun

This was also on EuroNews just now.

Mrs OBumble

smurgen wrote: »

How is this relevant to this thread?

Do you really have to ask?

Do you really think anything has changed?

The religion may have. The ethnicity has not. Despicable is indeed the word for it.

RDM_83 again

BlinkingLights wrote: »

It's on the front page of CNN.com, Lemonde.fr, BBC.co.uk, TheGuardian.com, ElMundo.es and quite a lot of other publications.

Bad news from other countries always sells better.

Spain-under facism the relevant time period

States- Jim Crow for most of it

France- loads of Vichy officials stayed in power after the war, hell they murdered probably 200 adults in Paris in the 50's and nobody was charged.

UK- industrial levels of child abuse on a scale close to Ireland back in the day in Rochedale all through the 2000's, papers like the Guardian softballed the story and ignored Mp's like Anne Cryer.

I am not saying this to excuse it but this has to be placed into a historic context

hinault

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Very shocked by the news coming from Tuam

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-significant-quantities-of-human-remains-discovered-at-excavation-site-35498856.html

According to Kitty Holland we are talking about hundreds of remains of babies and toddlers

Kitty, the paragon of accurate reporting.

please helpThank YOU

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

I know A Women was in the good shepherd convent in Limerick for more than 10 Years as a Child SLAVE and what she told me shocked me than she had WASH AND IRON 100S OF NAVY TROUSERS AND NAVY JACKETS AND BLUE SHIRTS SHE MADE OUT TO ME THE LOOK LIKE GARDA UNIFORMS

and when I asked this Women how did she end up good shepherd convent she told me she had Large Family and very poor and no room in the house the lived in when the where young Children A Welfare Worker and a priest called to her home and took her away. to be A Child Slave That Lady sued the state and was settled out side the court. but to this day she dos not Trust Government Agencies as the put her in this Hell Hole.

RDM_83 again

hinault wrote: »

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Very shocked by the news coming from Tuam

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-significant-quantities-of-human-remains-discovered-at-excavation-site-35498856.html

According to Kitty Holland we are talking about hundreds of remains of babies and toddlers

Kitty, the paragon of accurate reporting.

To be fair that may be complely accurate, if the morality rate is X where were they buried

please helpThank YOU

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Bad news from other countries always sells better.

Spain-under facism the relevant time period

States- Jim Crow for most of it

France- loads of Vichy officials stayed in power after the war, hell they murdered probably 200 adults in Paris in the 50's and nobody was charged.

UK- industrial levels of child abuse on a scale close to Ireland back in the day in Rochedale all through the 2000's, papers like the Guardian softballed the story and ignored Mp's like Anne Cryer.

I am not saying this to excuse it but this has to be placed into a historic context

Ireland 2017 we have Fine gael government and look what was done to A HERO OF MAN SGT GARDA MAURICE MCCABE

Graces7

infogiver wrote: »

The parents of the children sent them to the Convents and seminaries.
There's no point now in pretending that the RCC sent around a "child catcher" van or something.
Having a child or children in Holy Orders lifted the mother in particular into a higher stratosphere then the other women.
You could die happy if you had reared a priest, and you could look down your nose at your sister or your neighbor who didn't.
Irish people were and continue to be almost horrifically snobbish. It used to be having a son a PP and now it's having all the kids at Uni.
It's only if you live somewhere other then Ireland that you realise this

It was not just that. If a family had say eight kids, and were poor, a child "given to God" was safe for life. Fed, housed, buried, and more chance for those left at home.

The srs and priests would visit every home of a Friday, getting money adn asking which of your children are you giving to God?

I met the last of one family of SEVEN, all of them priests, brs or sisters. That too was common. The dire poverty made for this.

It was not really snobbery but practicality. We can hardly imagine the utter desperation of families.

I was in rural Ireland in the 70s. Called at a farm and there was a whole gaggle of barefoot kids standing round the table, taking turns with spoons from a tin of baked beans. Their evening meal.

And of course the plan was to populate the world with priests and nuns from Ireland. That was started immediately after the famine.

And had an effect on the population size and demographics here. Took a while generation of marriageable women out of the picture and left us with a generation of crusty old bachelors.

Population is only just starting to exceed post famine levels.

Need to look far further than snobbery !l

Annasopra

hinault wrote: »

Kitty, the paragon of accurate reporting.

She's not wrong

Graces7

greenflash wrote: »

A bit more superstitious nonsense is just what's needed right now.

Faith and love are not ever superstition. They are simply.. faith and love and a need to show that.

Old saying. "Better to light a candle than rage at the darkness."

Graces7

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Makes me sick, that scum organisation. The fact that people still go to their churches is just incredible. My mind f*cking boggles. Support these paedophiles and murderers. They should be burned to the ground every last Catholic organisation on this island.

That is ......stooopoid people go to mass for many reasons; there is not an organisation in this world that is pure and free of abuse.

Anger is also stoopid. Affects only you.

I know many good folk within the church who are hurting as much as you are and as much as I am. And that trust me is a huge amount.

Jesus is not the Church not is the Church Jesus.

please helpThank YOU

Just to say all Nuns are not bad .there is Good Ones and sum of them have being Victims like sisters of mercy Nora Wall Wrongfully Convicted of Rape.Nora Wall Paul Wililams Sunday world libel Sunday world apology

professore

seamus wrote: »

Yes, of course. But the mortality rates in these homes were 2 - 3 times the national average.

In a place that was masquerading as a care home for mothers and children, a child mortality rate that's multiples of the national average can only happen if there was severe, even deliberate mistreatment of the residents.

5 times in this particular home according to RTE news. The woman who did this research did a thorough and fantastic job.

Graces7

carolinej wrote: »

Truly shocking, horrendous & deeply heart breaking. I just cannot understand the mindset of those nuns tasked with looking after children and their mother's who were alone, far from home, scared & vulnerable, and why these "brides of God" were so so cruel and heartless to the plight of innocent babies. I just cannot fathom or get my head around it.

Anytime I pick up a baby, all I want to do is cuddle & protect. As women, where was their maternal loving & nurturing? Did they leave it at the gate when they took their vows, were they bitter they were nuns and would have preferred to be married? Was it a power trip over unmarried mothers who were shunned by family. Why Why Why and Yet, not all families banished their daughter to M&B homes.

I have a relation who had a baby back in the 1960's and she was neither sent to a home or had to give the baby up. She reared him at home with her family until she married herself and husband took on her child as his own. And this happened in rural 1960's Irl. She had several uncles who were priests and a cousin who was a nun (who was buried in Goldengate cemetery, my parents were at her funeral, said it was a horrible place) so maybe on some level it was known if she was sent away the baby would be given up for adoption. I don't know.

Remember the nuns were young women from poor families with little or no education and they had any emotion knocked out of them in the novitiate by harridans there.
The dire poverty of their families sent them to the convents. Not vocation as we know it.

And Holy Obedience when misused and abused is a powerful weapon.

And Sr who objected was shunned or cast out ie they were abused massively. And if they got thrown out?
Nowhere to go excpt the streets

professore

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Ireland 2017 we have Fine gael government and look what was done to A HERO OF MAN SGT GARDA MAURICE MCCABE

If you think any other party would have done anything differently then you are sadly mistaken.

professore

smurgen wrote: »

And some posters here trying to pass it off as a storm in a tea cup.

It's dreadful.

Graces7

jimgoose wrote: »

That priest should have been dragged by the head of hair from the church and strung up by his ankes from an ESB pole for a couple of days. :mad:

Oh very civilised! Very adult! NOT! As bad as them .

Graces7

juno10353 wrote: »

If this burial site is confirmed to be that of those innocent children who had death certificates signed, what can the religous order responsible for their burial be charged with. I mean by that, what is the law regarding burials. It is horrific what has taken place, but do we have laws to cover it. I sincerely hope so

It is the neglect . And if there was any violence etc. and what is on the death certs too.

Cdosrun

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Just to say all Nuns are not bad .there is Good Ones and sum of them have being Victims like sisters of mercy Nora Wall Wrongfully Convicted of Rape.Nora Wall Paul Wililams Sunday world libel Sunday world apology

The good ones I'v known were good but never stood up to the bad ones.
I don't know if I blame them realy.

Graces7

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I know the temptation will be to blame the church and religious institutions again, but wider society shares equal blame.

These mothers and their children were failed by everyone in society including the church, politicians, state bodies, civil servants and their own families.

Having a baby out of wedlock could at the time bring shame but also attract the worst kind of gossip and ostracisation, perpetrated often by neighbours and ordinary citizens.

My own view is the politicians of the era up to and including the likes of Devalera must take a large amount of the blame, for giving the church free reign with zero oversight. The reverence shown to the church by politicians went way too far. Only the likes of Noel Browne had the courage to stand up to them. Most of the other politicians were sheep who never raised their voices.

No, you are wrong in the balance of what you say here. Itis so hard for modern folk to understand the sheer power the Church had then. They owned and ran all the schools, all the hospitals etc; they ran Ireland. Had total power here. Irish folk would absorb the gossip as many did. They were not allowed to by the Church.

And it will com out now, the scale of the lucrative baby trafficking.

Too much money too much power and no one stood a chance against them.

Zebra3

Graces7 wrote: »

Remember the nuns were young women from poor families with little or no education and they had any emotion knocked out of them in the novitiate by harridans there.
The dire poverty of their families sent them to the convents. Not vocation as we know it.

And Holy Obedience when misused and abused is a powerful weapon.

And Sr who objected was shunned or cast out ie they were abused massively. And if they got thrown out?
Nowhere to go excpt the streets

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. My aunt is a nun. Her father paid a small fortune for her to become one, as in a direct payment to the convent. It was her decision to go and hers alone.

If she'd been thrown out she knew she had a family to return to.

Stop excusing those who took part in violent acts of terror. It's disgusting.

professore

Cdosrun wrote: »

The good ones I'v known were good but never stood up to the bad ones.
I don't know if I blame them realy.

I am sure there were plenty of good Nazis too.

professore

Graces7 wrote: »

No, you are wrong in the balance of what you say here. Itis so hard for modern folk to understand the sheer power the Church had then. They owned and ran all the schools, all the hospitals etc; they ran Ireland. Had total power here. Irish folk would absorb the gossip as many did. They were not allowed to by the Church.

And it will com out now, the scale of the lucrative baby trafficking.

Too much money too much power and no one stood a chance against them.

I have to agree. It would be like blaming the citizens of North Korea for their predicament. The church ruled with an iron fist.

Graces7

pilly wrote: »

But who physically threw these babies without sin into a septic tank?

I agree the are a lot of people to blame but in Ireland we're too fond of looking at the "big picture" and have tribunals etc. to end up at a point where the "system" is to blame and not any individual.

Individual responsibility for our own actions has to come in to being and the only way that will happen is if there's consequences for those actions like jail sentences.

They were taken out at night and the locals did the actual burying, the kind ones who kept the garden safe but who could not stand against. Sometimes the older boys were involved by order of the nuns and someitmes a priest attended. There are accounts; will find them again

The sheer scale of this.
Sure we can condemn the local folk but given how thinsg were?One localman who had been campaigning to get this sorted died only weeks before the story first broke.

Bessborough in Cork; the gardeners and those who buried the babies put nails in the wall to show where each baby was buried; a code.

And they prayed; at Tuam,at Bessborough at all the homes. And ther were many

Graces7

pilly wrote: »

But who physically threw these babies without sin into a septic tank?

I agree the are a lot of people to blame but in Ireland we're too fond of looking at the "big picture" and have tribunals etc. to end up at a point where the "system" is to blame and not any individual.

Individual responsibility for our own actions has to come in to being and the only way that will happen is if there's consequences for those actions like jail sentences.

Oh by the way,if you are apportioning blame? WHAT ABOUT THE FATHERs Of THESE BABIES?

Where were they?

please helpThank YOU

Cdosrun wrote: »

The good ones I'v known were good but never stood up to the bad ones.
I don't know if I blame them realy.

Can You see why the Nuns did not stand up ? look what this Man Got for Stand up SGT GARDA MAURICE MCCABE .so what would have been done to them Nuns at the time?

professore

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

How many babies of asylum seekers in Ireland have died, and where are they buried?

How many children of asylum seekers like in close proximity with prople who have not been vetted to ensure they are safe around children?

Do you have evidence of this? If so it's your duty to go to the gardai AND the newspapers.

Graces7

pilly wrote: »

Hurting them financially is not the only way. They can be sent to prison. Has their actually ever been a nun sent to prison in this country? I've never heard of it.

Ah but the old wans , Sisters, now live in palatial luxury. In Clonakility alone, they built a new convent that cost over( I have had access through my research work to many f their palaces) .

Maybe if they had to live as all pensioners do? Far better than prison as I suspect prisoners live better than we do on basic pensions .

professore

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh by the way,if you are apportioning blame? WHAT ABOUT THE FATHERs Of THESE BABIES?

Where were they?

Why specifically point at the fathers? I would say many of them were unaware they were fathers - the mother's family certainly would keep it quiet.

Of the ones that knew, they were no better or worse than anyone else at the time. Is someone on this thread specifically blaming the mothers? I haven't seen it but haven't read from the start. If they are they need to take a good look at themselves as their attitude of deflecting blame from the church made this kind of thing possible.

Graces7

RobertKK wrote: »

I would guess most, if not all of the people responsible are now dead since this particular mother and baby home ran from 1925 to 1961.
1961 is 56 years ago.

So? War crimes from World War 2 are still being prosecuted and maybe you are not aware that a religious order is legally and morally and financially responsible for all its members past and present?

Cdosrun

professore wrote: »

I am sure there were plenty of good Nazis too.

I'v no idea about Nazis but having spent years in a home run by nuns.........


Btw the good ones never stayed around for long only the bad ones.

Graces7

Snickers Man wrote: »

Sorry. That's just a load of non sequiturs one after the other.




Yes. Dead bodies were disposed of in a perfunctory and callous way. That's your story.

If I really wanted to be facetious I would make up a banner headline saying.

"Official: 'Babies buried in septic tank' story is bollox!!!"

Which it is. Now let's remind ourselves of the time line of events. Ms Corless, a local historian, was curious as to the fate of the people who died while resident at the home. There was no public memorial or acknowledgement anywhere in the town. So over a period of years at her own expense and with her own diligence she tracked down the official records of deaths reported in the Mother and Baby home and came up with a number. Fair play to her for a thorough and worthy piece of research.

She published her findings in a local history journal. She tried to interest the national press. And was met with indifference.

This is not a cover up. This is (I'm guessing) overworked editors saying: "What's the story? The deaths were not covered up. They were reported to the authorities and recorded. The "news hook" is that there's no headstones?? Do me a favour. "

Then the story emerges about the two little boys forty years ago finding some bones in what had been a septic tank. So people put two and two together (I'm not saying Ms Corless was responsible for this) and we get the "Babies dumped in a septic tank" story. This was the little bit of bull**** that caused the story to flower and spread across the world faster than a rhododendron scourge in Killarney National Park.

And that part of the story has now been exposed as untrue. There have been no remains found in the septic tank. (Read the statement from the Commission)

The facts of the story so far are that several hundred deaths occurred at a Mother and Baby Home during its years of operation. That the minimum (so far as I know and nobody has ventured other information) legal requirements concerning notification of authorities were met and that the bodies were disposed of without ceremony or acknowledgement in the most convenient place. Which seems to have been a long disused (I've seen this written about elsewhere but can't recall) compartmentalised structure which had been a waste-water or cess pit many years before the site became a home. It was NOT a working septic tank.

That doesn't reflect well on the church as a church. It is also a tragic illustration of how those who couldn't afford a decent undertaker were disposed of after death down through the centuries. (Ever seen Amadeus? The funeral scene? Even Mozart was dumped in a mass grave because he was penniless at the time of his death)

That's it. When you strip it down to its essentials. Poor people get perfunctory treatment in death. But Genocide? Holocaust? Murder?

Calm down. Please.

You ar working for the Church? With this whitewash and these distortions?

Unconsecrated ground; lack of respect.. maybe look up the Catechism of th Catholic Church and see how we are ordered to treat the dead?

and yes all that I have bolded. Not just this home but many around the country as this was all agreed policy

Hidden corpses. Always suspect.

Graces7

pilly wrote: »

Why has it taken so long from the initial findings to now?

Because there had to be tests and all had to be done from strict procedures to avoid challenges later. Else the orders and the church could deny.

When the Tuam home news first broke, they said the commission would take three years. Has been two now. And now they will widen the scope to all homes in the country.

Read the jumbled and grossly inaccurate post by Snickers man to see why strict procedure has to be followed which takes time.

All is being done correctly and professionally now. Out of the hands of the Church .

please helpThank YOU

Cdosrun wrote: »

I'v no idea about Nazis but having spent years in a home run by nuns.........


Btw the good ones never stayed around for long only the bad ones.

1933 Blue shirts Fascism Fine Gael Fascist Root Irish Nazi group.:eek: this aroud the same time what was going on in Tuam in Galway

Graces7

valoren wrote: »

Agreed.

I've always believed that reputation is everything. It means more than power, of controlling people. More than money, by accruing vast sums after vows of poverty, using children and babies as commodities for adoptions.

Seeing that the Bons Secours Sisters are very adept at employing sociopathic PR representation to weasel out of responsibility and accountability indicates that they are fully aware of the dangers of having their reputation damaged. It is the very reason PR itself exists.

While those individuals who are ultimately responsible may be dead, the orders they represented, who operated under a framework of neglect and abuse, can still be held accountable and have their reputations irretrievably damaged in our society.

Maybe you do not understand the Vow Of Poverty..an order can own millions as they all do but each individual member can own nothing, not even the habit she wears.

And yes, orders are still accountable. And thy are all dying out anyway nw;average age is well over 80 and rising..soon all be gone.

Even the Poor Clares who did no wrong

Graces7

lazybones32 wrote: »

No-one has said it was a hoax but I am saying that certain media outlets, printed false information and called it the truth. Not about the just under 800 minors who died and were buried but about the distortion that 800 children/babies died (or were killed?) and then were dumped in a disused septic tank. The part about being dumped in a septic tank is what the Irish Media outlets were forced to print a retraction to...and yet if you read the post below, the misinformation is still accepted as fact. I've no issue with people being angry but at least be angry over what did happen and not what didn't. We'll never get to the truth if there are lies being peddled.

Please reread the article. It is a septic tank. Originally found by small boys.

No lies.

Graces7

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Yet we still leave our children in the care of the religious faiths, via the primary school patronage system

completely bonkers

Not in their care as the homes were. What caused the delay in finding the abuse scandals was that the system was schizo. If a child was at a day school, they got a wonderful education etc but down the road in the orphanage?

As long as a child lives at home they are safe from abuse.

Graces7

KKkitty wrote: »

My mother went to her grave without being reunited with her son but how many mothers are alive today that hoped to meet their children again. This is a worrying time for those mothers. I really feel for all of them. Just looking at films or documentaries about what they faced just because they had babies outside marriage is harrowing. It was because of god fearing Catholic relations of my mother's that she was sent away. Being made to think that having a baby without a husband was a sin. The priests, nuns and anyone else who was responsible for this should be named and shamed. The state needs to form a backbone and stand up for all the women who were downtrodden for so long.

I ask again; WHAT ABOUT THE FATHERS OF thE BABIES? In many cases this was rape.

IvyTheTerrible

Graces7 wrote: »

Not in their care as the homes were. What caused the delay in finding the abuse scandals was that the system was schizo. If a child was at a day school, they got a wonderful education etc but down the road in the orphanage?

As long as a child lives at home they are safe from abuse.

Eh, most child abuse happens in the home by someone the child knows.

Graces7

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Sorry for what happened to your mother but.its the state who did this.

Nope. The Church ran Ireland ... totally.

Graces7

Donal55 wrote: »

And all overseen by the Govt authorities. Don't let anyone think this was only a religious problem.

I heard Ms. Corless being interviewed earlier. 800 death certs were issued. No burial records. Was no garda, doctor, nurse, tradesman etc ever suspicious?

They were powerless against the Church. Read Ryan and Murphy reports. Please do.

The Church WAS ireland.

please helpThank YOU

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Eh, most child abuse happens in the home by someone the child knows.

Can You show the Conviction rate on the Garda web Site I just looked and I can not find this? evidence and proof of this all I can see is A lot of people saying this in Ireland sumthing not right here.

Graces7

lazybones32 wrote: »

Kind of proving my point there...the children were buried in a plot beside the septic tank; not quite as sensational as "800 babies dumped in a septic tank" that was peddled and later retracted (i.e. they admitted they lied in printing that part, yet the misinformation still persists).

I want to form my judgments based on the truth - don't you?

That is some denial you are in.. reread the findings, where the remains were found.. wastewater/septic tank system .. truth

please helpThank YOU

Graces7 wrote: »

Nope. The Church ran Ireland ... totally.

But sum of the Victims had to have gone to the Gardai years ago? when did this this all come out what year ?

Graces7

Parchment wrote: »

The state allowed it but the church caused it with all their fear mongering and shaming of people.

I hope all those with their ashes on their foreheads this week can truely believe in such an organization.

They do and they have that right. Jesus is not the Church nor the Church Jesus. My faith is in Jesus Christ above and beyond the earthly Church

No I did not get Ashed. I have learned too much about the Church.

But I also know many deeply faithful people of great worth and sincerity and they are hurting badly too. As I am.

Believe me on that and respect us. Else?