Work disciplinary union rep

Seanachai

Hi, do I have the right to have a union rep in a work disciplinary meeting in Ireland? They have said I can have a work colleague.

_Brian

If the union rep is an employee I can't see how they can deny it. Your not entitled to being a person from outside the company to the meeting.

Seanachai

_Brian wrote: »

If the union rep is an employee I can't see how they can deny it. Your not entitled to being a person from outside the company to the meeting.

That's the catch, the rep has to be an employee, I thought that might be the case alright.

seamus

It's worth noting that you are legally permitted to record any conversation which you are party to, with or without informing the other party(ies) present.

In the context of a disciplinary meeting, this recording may be admissible in the event that you end up in front of an EAT.

http://www.mcdowellpurcell.ie/news/covert-recording-in-the-workplace/


You could make the recording and then review it later on with a union rep - but if the union rep is not part of company this raises potential legal issues. The union rep could give you advice or directions on what to do, but you should never reveal that you played the recording for them.

gallifreya

Are you aware if the meeting might have strong sanctions applied or is it for something less serious? If it's just a slap on the wrist then probably not worth making a big deal about it. That said, my own view is that if your workplace has a registered trade union representation that has been recognised by the company in the past, then you could insist on bringing in your union rep if that's what you want to do. The Code Of Practice stipulates that employee representation at disciplinary hearings should consist of either a colleague of the employee's choice or a union representative.

Seanachai

gallifreya wrote: »

Are you aware if the meeting might have strong sanctions applied or is it for something less serious? If it's just a slap on the wrist then probably not worth making a big deal about it. That said, my own view is that if your workplace has a registered trade union representation that has been recognised by the company in the past, then you could insist on bringing in your union rep if that's what you want to do. The Code Of Practice stipulates that employee representation at disciplinary hearings should consist of either a colleague of the employee's choice or a union representative.

I was told in no uncertain terms by a HR employee that they would 'not allow' a TU rep into the building. I'm not too well versed in the law so I don't know who to believe to be honest. I still haven't received notice on when the meeting is yet, it's hard to gauge if it will be a warning or dismissal, it was a breach of a policy in relation to customer service.

pilly

Seanachai wrote:

I was told in no uncertain terms by a HR employee that they would 'not allow' a TU rep into the building. I'm not too well versed in the law so I don't know who to believe to be honest. I still haven't received notice on when the meeting is yet, it's hard to gauge if it will be a warning or dismissal, it was a breach of a policy in relation to customer service.

So does your company not recognise the union?

Seanachai

pilly wrote: »

So does your company not recognise the union?

It doesn't recognise any unions from what I've been told. I thought that Irish law might overrule this though? Is it a grey area?

Triceratops Ballet

Seanachai wrote: »

I was told in no uncertain terms by a HR employee that they would 'not allow' a TU rep into the building. I'm not too well versed in the law so I don't know who to believe to be honest. I still haven't received notice on when the meeting is yet, it's hard to gauge if it will be a warning or dismissal, it was a breach of a policy in relation to customer service.

They don't have to allow it. If they actively engage with a union they may be happy to allow but if not they can refuse. Even if the union rep was an employee they can clarify that they are permitting them to attend as an employee acting as your witness and not in their capacity as a rep of x union

_Brian

Seanachai wrote: »

I was told in no uncertain terms by a HR employee that they would 'not allow' a TU rep into the building. I'm not too well versed in the law so I don't know who to believe to be honest. I still haven't received notice on when the meeting is yet, it's hard to gauge if it will be a warning or dismissal, it was a breach of a policy in relation to customer service.

Unless it was gross misconduct and it's a slam dunk they would be mad to move straight to a dismissal. Final written warning maybe but moving straight to dismissal is a risky move for any employer.
From a hr perspective it's much more successful and less blowback if you go straight to a final written warning with a pip and then let the employee fail the pip - then termination is mich cleaner and less chance of a case been taken.

You should enquirer as to the nature of the meeting, is it an investigation or a disciplinary meeting.

pilly

Seanachai wrote: »

It doesn't recognise any unions from what I've been told. I thought that Irish law might overrule this though? Is it a grey area?

Very grey area, huge companies in Ireland that don't recognise Trade Unions and they've never been forced to so I wouldn't go down that road.

Seanachai

_Brian wrote: »

Unless it was gross misconduct and it's a slam dunk they would be mad to move straight to a dismissal. Final written warning maybe but moving straight to dismissal is a risky move for any employer.
From a hr perspective it's much more successful and less blowback if you go straight to a final written warning with a pip and then let the employee fail the pip - then termination is mich cleaner and less chance of a case been taken.

You should enquirer as to the nature of the meeting, is it an investigation or a disciplinary meeting.

I've already had the investigation, the disciplinary is next. I was made aware that the next meeting could lead to dismissal. I have no previous warnings, almost ten years here, attendance is A1 etc. The offence was in dealing with a customer by phone, it is classified as gross misconduct (it's not from swearing or being abusive). Can they move from investigation to dismissal with no previous issues?

Triceratops Ballet

Seanachai wrote: »

I've already had the investigation, the disciplinary is next. I was made aware that the next meeting could lead to dismissal. I have no previous warnings, almost ten years here, attendance is A1 etc. The offence was in dealing with a customer by phone, it is classified as gross misconduct (it's not from swearing or being abusive). Can they move from investigation to dismissal with no previous issues?

if the investigation was carried out thoroughly and fairly and it was made clear to you at investigation stage the dismissal was one of the potential outcomes they can

pilly

Seanachai wrote: »

I've already had the investigation, the disciplinary is next. I was made aware that the next meeting could lead to dismissal. I have no previous warnings, almost ten years here, attendance is A1 etc. The offence was in dealing with a customer by phone, it is classified as gross misconduct (it's not from swearing or being abusive). Can they move from investigation to dismissal with no previous issues?

What way did the investigation go?

If it is classified as gross misconduct it must have been pretty serious and I would be worried if I was you.

If you've had no previous warnings though was there something exceptional that made you break the rules on this occasion?

Were you involved in the investigation and allowed to put your side?

Seanachai

pilly wrote: »

What way did the investigation go?

If it is classified as gross misconduct it must have been pretty serious and I would be worried if I was you.

If you've had no previous warnings though was there something exceptional that made you break the rules on this occasion?

Were you involved in the investigation and allowed to put your side?

I hung up on a customer that was being very intense, he claims he had been passed around three times, possibly by a retailer. I tried to determine how I could help him but it made him even angrier. It was the first call after I'd just sat down at my desk and I'd had a rough night with noisy neighbours. I was at the investigation and I gave my account and pleaded my case. I can live with being dismissed fair and square, I'd just be worried about being let go unfairly, or how it would look to my next employer.

pilly

Seanachai wrote: »

I hung up on a customer that was being very intense, he claims he had been passed around three times, possibly by a retailer. I tried to determine how I could help him but it made him even angrier. It was the first call after I'd just sat down at my desk and I'd had a rough night with noisy neighbours. I was at the investigation and I gave my account and pleaded my case. I can live with being dismissed fair and square, I'd just be worried about being let go unfairly, or how it would look to my next employer.

Yeah, that's a bit of a crappy situation to be in alright. Hopefully it won't come to that though. Is there a handbook where examples of gross misconduct are listed and is hanging up on a customer one of them?

Did you apologise for it?

Listen, you're ten years there, if they are a fair employer I don't think they will let you go, they could be just trying to give you an almighty fright.

Seanachai

pilly wrote: »

Yeah, that's a bit of a crappy situation to be in alright. Hopefully it won't come to that though. Is there a handbook where examples of gross misconduct are listed and is hanging up on a customer one of them?

Did you apologise for it?

Listen, you're ten years there, if they are a fair employer I don't think they will let you go, they could be just trying to give you an almighty fright.

I apologised in the investigation, sending out the message to everybody on the floor could be the intention. Cutting off a customer is listed as gross misconduct.

pilly

Seanachai wrote: »

I apologised in the investigation, sending out the message to everybody on the floor could be the intention. Cutting off a customer is listed as gross misconduct.

Yep, it could be the intention but they might just go to final written warning. I empathise with you, it must be a horrible situation.

Talk of bringing in union reps might not help you in this situation to be honest as you've no defence.

Seanachai

pilly wrote: »

Yep, it could be the intention but they might just go to final written warning. I empathise with you, it must be a horrible situation.

Talk of bringing in union reps might not help you in this situation to be honest as you've no defence.

Thanks, it's hard to help somebody who only seems interested in arguing and passive-aggressive remarks, even if they have every right to be angry. I went ten years without hanging up on anybody, I'm human at the end of the day though.

Rob Thomas

I worked with and for organisations who did'nt sack people for much worse. Gross misconduct is often far reaching and wide and while dismissal could be a consequence, I expect on the limited information we have here, it is unlikely.

You have 10 years good service it seems, this behaviour is not part of a pattern and your prior record is unblemished. Also, you recognise what you did is wrong, apologised and, it does not appear that you deliberately concealed it.

Dismissal for call ending in customer service is fraught with difficulty, especially when the customer is irate or annoyed. For example, some companies allow you to end the call if you have told the customer they are being abusive or otherwise and asked them to stop but they do not. I'm not suggesting your company does, or if this is the case in this instance but overall, I dont see the benefit for you or the company in dismissing you for this. I expect you will be sanctioned for the behaviour and monitored for a period.

If they do dismiss you, try to learn from it and not take it too personally. You know your own character, there is always another job and role.

I agree with other posters, by all means bring in a colleague if you wish but talk of unions and outside people wont help your case. If you are treated wrongly in terms of the law, they wont get away with it in the end anyway. You cannot waive your rights.

_Brian

Did you know in advance that cutting off a customer was gross misconduct, is this made clear, is it documented in training or disciplinary procedures??

If it is and you did it anyway then I'd expect termination will follow and it seems they are in their rights. Acts of gross misconduct agreed between employer and employee in training are a slam dunk if proven.

cml387

_Brian wrote: »

Did you know in advance that cutting off a customer was gross misconduct, is this made clear, is it documented in training or disciplinary procedures??

If it is and you did it anyway then I'd expect termination will follow and it seems they are in their rights. Acts of gross misconduct agreed between employer and employee in training are a slam dunk if proven.

No such thing as a slam dunk in this situation.
Most contracts will say that gross misconduct may lead to dismissal.
There should always be room for compassion or compromise.
Stabbing the CEO in the chest would be gross misconduct which would in all likelihood lead to dismissal.
Dropping a call under extreme provocation...?

_Brian

cml387 wrote: »

No such thing as a slam dunk in this situation.
Most contracts will say that gross misconduct may lead to dismissal.
There should always be room for compassion or compromise.
Stabbing the CEO in the chest would be gross misconduct which would in all likelihood lead to dismissal.
Dropping a call under extreme provocation...?

But there is really, IF the training and procedures say " never under any circumstances cut off a customer" and that doing so will be considered gross misconduct dealt with by disciplinary action up to and including termination. Then it's at the behest of the employer to terminate or not, now if this is a huge no no the employer will want to send the message to all employees and so termination is likely.

Seanachai

_Brian wrote: »

But there is really, IF the training and procedures say " never under any circumstances cut off a customer" and that doing so will be considered gross misconduct dealt with by disciplinary action up to and including termination. Then it's at the behest of the employer to terminate or not, now if this is a huge no no the employer will want to send the message to all employees and so termination is likely.

To be honest it's been so long since training that I can't remember if this was made clear, it was certainly during the investigation though. I assume it's written down somewhere for legal reasons too. If it's a breach of a company policy then they have me dead to rights, any leeway in this regard would be at their own discretion. It's a bit strange that I haven't received any notice for the meeting yet.

pilly

Seanachai wrote: »

To be honest it's been so long since training that I can't remember if this was made clear, it was certainly during the investigation though. I assume it's written down somewhere for legal reasons too. If it's a breach of a company policy then they have me dead to rights, any leeway in this regard would be at their own discretion. It's a bit strange that I haven't received any notice for the meeting yet.

They haven't told you when it's going to be? Jaysus that's pure torture.

Deise Vu

Seanachai wrote: »

To be honest it's been so long since training that I can't remember if this was made clear, it was certainly during the investigation though. I assume it's written down somewhere for legal reasons too. If it's a breach of a company policy then they have me dead to rights, any leeway in this regard would be at their own discretion. It's a bit strange that I haven't received any notice for the meeting yet.

I hate to say it but it sounds to me like they are ticking all the boxes towards dismissal. I'm not HR but I was part of a process where an extremely difficult employee that even the other employees wanted gone was being made redundant and I couldn't believe how heartless the process was. The dreaded line, "we will have another meeting and you may be at risk of redundancy" was used. Considering everyone in the room knew he going I thought it was sick to be honest. I think it is meant to give management time to reflect but instead it is just piling mental torture on to the employee.

Unless they are playing some sort of bizarre cruel game I would be getting legal advice if I was you. It doesn't really matter if you can't remember if you were told hanging up is gross misconduct, it has to be written down somewhere with your signature underneath. You must have a contract with basic terms and conditions and then there is probably an Employee Handbook. If you can't find your copy, get it from HR.

From an outsider's point of view hanging up a phone once in 10 years working in Customer Service seems a relatively trivial spur of the moment thing. I could understand if you did it a few times but once in 10 years? I would definitely get legal advice and if you are snookered on the contractual terms I would be going down the line of insufficient training in dealing with obstreperous customers. You can never have enough training so you might at least wangle better terms out of them.

Seanachai

Deise Vu wrote: »

I hate to say it but it sounds to me like they are ticking all the boxes towards dismissal. I'm not HR but I was part of a process where an extremely difficult employee that even the other employees wanted gone was being made redundant and I couldn't believe how heartless the process was. The dreaded line, "we will have another meeting and you may be at risk of redundancy" was used. Considering everyone in the room knew he going I thought it was sick to be honest. I think it is meant to give management time to reflect but instead it is just piling mental torture on to the employee.

Unless they are playing some sort of bizarre cruel game I would be getting legal advice if I was you. It doesn't really matter if you can't remember if you were told hanging up is gross misconduct, it has to be written down somewhere with your signature underneath. You must have a contract with basic terms and conditions and then there is probably an Employee Handbook. If you can't find your copy, get it from HR.

From an outsider's point of view hanging up a phone once in 10 years working in Customer Service seems a relatively trivial spur of the moment thing. I could understand if you did it a few times but once in 10 years? I would definitely get legal advice and if you are snookered on the contractual terms I would be going down the line of insufficient training in dealing with obstreperous customers. You can never have enough training so you might at least wangle better terms out of them.

When you say legal advice I assume you mean I'd have to pursue this after they make the decision?

mitresize5

your company policy might say that hanging up on a customer is gross misconduct which can lead to dismissal but any reasonable person wouldn't see it as such, especially if you've had ten years service with no issues.

I imagine someone in HR should be looking at this and thinking, fine, we can do it, but what happens if you take it further, i.e. appeal to the WRC. You'd have a very strong case, especially if you have a blemish free record and no prior warnings. If you are dismissed this is what I'd be doing straight away

My best guess is a written or final written warning followed by 6 months PIP. I'd be very surprised if you were dismissed.

Deise Vu

Seanachai wrote: »

When you say legal advice I assume you mean I'd have to pursue this after they make the decision?

If they call you to another meeting I would get legal advice in advance. If they tell you to go then you are looking at suing for two years pay max, your job is gone and you are in an awkward situation for a reference.

Don't waste your time by going in arms swinging, make an appointment, give a brief outline of your case and send in a copy of your Contract and EE Handbook in advance of the meeting. Your Solicitor will let you know straight away if you are bunched or fireproof. Even if you are bunched he / she will give you a few things to say that might give your employers pause for thought and or cause to the employer to up the ante.

pilly

Deise Vu wrote: »

If they call you to another meeting I would get legal advice in advance. If they tell you to go then you are looking at suing for two years pay max, your job is gone and you are in an awkward situation for a reference.

Don't waste your time by going in arms swinging, make an appointment, give a brief outline of your case and send in a copy of your Contract and EE Handbook in advance of the meeting. Your Solicitor will let you know straight away if you are bunched or fireproof. Even if you are bunched he / she will give you a few things to say that might give your employers pause for thought and or cause to the employer to up the ante.

I think this is good advice OP.

Mrs OBumble

Deise Vu wrote: »

... I couldn't believe how heartless the process was. The dreaded line, "we will have another meeting and you may be at risk of redundancy" was used. Considering everyone in the room knew he going I thought it was sick to be honest. I think it is meant to give management time to reflect but instead it is just piling mental torture on to the employee.

...

From an outsider's point of view hanging up a phone once in 10 years working in Customer Service seems a relatively trivial spur of the moment thing.

HR is a cruel and heartless discipline: it's all about maximising the company's return from the (human) resources, and minimising the legal and operational risks associated with them. In the case you spoke of, the additional meeting was simply about due process: the dogs in the street knew that it wouldn't change anything, but if they didn't do it that way there would have been increased risk of the ex-employee taking a claim and the employer being awarded against.

Occasionally you'll find a company that combines the HR discipline with some humanity, but this is usually applied by non HR managers who are prepared to take risks outside of HR guidelines.


Re the OP's situation: it all depends on the company. I've worked in a place where the slightest theft (eg a pen from the office) was gross misconduct. This was an operational requirement, because the company years earlier had a dreadful reputation for theft of customer goods - turning this around required drastic policies which they were totally up-front about from hiring onwards.

We don't know what the OPs company's policies are. But I don't believe that the claim of forgetting what was said at induction would wash: you're supposed to remember stuff from training, not forget it. That' just basic to being an employee.


Re his/her specific question: no, there is no right to take a union rep. Companies aren't even required to recognise unions. Some companies may allow it (smart ones know that the union staff will delivery "you've f*cked up" messages for them), but don't have to.