Work disciplinary union rep

BrokenArrows

If the OP is being honest that they have worked for 10 years with no prior warnings or issues with management then i would consider being let go for hanging up on a customer (especially in a customer service role) a very over the top decision.

I used to work in a customer service role and hung up on customers fairly regularly. Some people are just insane and cannot be reasoned with. Warning them that if they dont change their tone you will hang up and then hanging up is considered normal practice as far as im concerned.

Now if the OP told the customer he was an asshole and then hung up, thats a different matter.

If after 10 years your fired for a single mistake then id be taking legal advice because to me it seems like its unfair and maybe they are just looking for cheap ways to trim some of their staff without paying redundancy.

Seanachai

BrokenArrows wrote: »

If the OP is being honest that they have worked for 10 years with no prior warnings or issues with management then i would consider being let go for hanging up on a customer (especially in a customer service role) a very over the top decision.

I used to work in a customer service role and hung up on customers fairly regularly. Some people are just insane and cannot be reasoned with. Warning them that if they dont change their tone you will hang up and then hanging up is considered normal practice as far as im concerned.

Now if the OP told the customer he was an asshole and then hung up, thats a different matter.

If after 10 years your fired for a single mistake then id be taking them to court because to me it seems like its unfair and maybe they are just looking for cheap ways to trim some of their staff without paying redundancy.

I didn't say anything before I hung up and there was no swearing from myself. Cutting off a call is listed in the employee handbook as 'gross misconduct', I'm consulting with somebody at the moment about where I stand. Thanks for your advice everybody.

Squatman

is it too late for
"now that iv had a chance to think about it, i did WANT to hang up on the caller, but I infact went to pick up my water bottle and it fell on the phone, Im terribly sorry I didnt remember this sooner. I think we'd all agree that hanging up would have been completely out of character for me"...?

_Brian

Seanachai wrote: »

I didn't say anything before I hung up and there was no swearing from myself. Cutting off a call is listed in the employee handbook as 'gross misconduct', I'm consulting with somebody at the moment about where I stand. Thanks for your advice everybody.

I think its likely the handbook will state that gross misconduct "may result in termination" or "disciplinary action up to and including termination" or "may result in termination without any other disciplinary steps" that sort of thing, its unlikely that it will say that its DEFINITELY a termination position.

If they do go straight to termination you could appeal and are entitled to ask them why they thought this specific case warranted dismissal and would your clean record not count to bring it to a final written warning instead..

Deise Vu

_Brian wrote: »

I think its likely the handbook will state that gross misconduct "may result in termination" or "disciplinary action up to and including termination" or "may result in termination without any other disciplinary steps" that sort of thing, its unlikely that it will say that its DEFINITELY a termination position.

If they do go straight to termination you could appeal and are entitled to ask them why they thought this specific case warranted dismissal and would your clean record not count to bring it to a final written warning instead..

Agree 100% with this. The punishment has to be proportionate and there is also the issue of custom & practice. If the company is firing people every week for this breach of procedure OP has no case. However, if this is the first instance of a dismissal in ten years and OP has an otherwise impeccable record he would be nailed on for an unfair dismissals case and I don't care what the Employee Handbook says. If there have been previous instances of hanging up but no dismissal, I think OP becomes bullet-proof.

I think OP mentioned the particular phone call had been passed around before it got to him. He should also bring this up as it gives more than an indication that the customer was particularly obnoxious which resulted in OP having his first bad day at the office moment out of nearly 2,500.

Seanachai

_Brian wrote: »

I think its likely the handbook will state that gross misconduct "may result in termination" or "disciplinary action up to and including termination" or "may result in termination without any other disciplinary steps" that sort of thing, its unlikely that it will say that its DEFINITELY a termination position.

If they do go straight to termination you could appeal and are entitled to ask them why they thought this specific case warranted dismissal and would your clean record not count to bring it to a final written warning instead..

So if they decide on termination and I wanted to appeal, do I have to make them aware of this there and then?

pilly

Seanachai wrote: »

So if they decide on termination and I wanted to appeal, do I have to make them aware of this there and then?

Yes, I would do if I were you. They may ask you to sign something. Don't. Say you'll have to seek legal advice.

cml387

We are getting ahead of ourselves.
As I understand the OP hasn't had this meeting yet.
The next step will be dependent on the outcome of the meeting.
Bring a colleague, make sure you are absolutely clear what you were told (that's the reason your colleague is there, to witness what was said and be a second pair of ears).
Then you can decide what to do. Don't go in all guns blazing with talk of lawyers and unfair dismissal.
After all they may be happy with just a warning (final, written or whatever ).

pilly

cml387 wrote: »

We are getting ahead of ourselves.
As I understand the OP hasn't had this meeting yet.
The next step will be dependent on the outcome of the meeting.
Bring a colleague, make sure you are absolutely clear what you were told (that's the reason your colleague is there, to witness what was said and be a second pair of ears).
Then you can decide what to do. Don't go in all guns blazing with talk of lawyers and unfair dismissal.
After all they may be happy with just a warning (final, written or whatever ).

No-one has suggested that OP go in all guns blazing as far as I can see but they should have a back-up plan if dismissal is the outcome.

jimmycrackcorm

Seanachai wrote:

I apologised in the investigation, sending out the message to everybody on the floor could be the intention. Cutting off a customer is listed as gross misconduct.

With ten years good performance, a dismissal for this, particularly when it wasn't a case of abusing the customer and it's an isolated incident, would be way over the top and any good solicitor would have you saying through an EAT case.

I think a written warning is probably the most likely outcome. Just because cutting off a call is listed as gross misconduct does not entitle the company to fire you at will. Natural justice still prevails.

davo10

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

With ten years good performance, a dismissal for this, particularly when it wasn't a case of abusing the customer and it's an isolated incident, would be way over the top and any good solicitor would have you saying through an EAT case.

I think a written warning is probably the most likely outcome. Just because cutting off a call is listed as gross misconduct does not entitle the company to fire you at will. Natural justice still prevails.

You are speculating.

At the moment we only have the ops side of the story and they presumably have a recording of the conversation. If this resulted in the loss of s client then the company may feel justified in any action they take.

At a disciplinary meeting the employer must lay out the allegation against the employee and any supporting evidence, they must outline what the possible punishments are. They must then consider the employees response, so it is unlikely the op will be given the decision immediately. The fact that dropping a call is specifically mentioned in the grievance handbook indicates that this is an important part of their business and this type of action will not be tolerated.

A good solicitor would never say that an employee will win an EAT hearing, simply because different companies have different businesses and different requirements. In one company it may be ok to tell a customer to get lost, in another it may be cause for dismissal.

Right now all the op can do is go to the meeting and put his/her case forward with an apology. And then wait to see what happens.

pilly

davo10 wrote: »

You are speculating.

At the moment we only have the ops side of the story and they presumably have a recording of the conversation. If this resulted in the loss of s client then the company may feel justified in any action they take.

At a disciplinary meeting the employer must lay out the allegation against the employee and any supporting evidence, they must outline what the possible punishments are. They must then consider the employees response, so it is unlikely the op will be given the decision immediately. The fact that dropping a call is specifically mentioned in the grievance handbook indicates that this is an important part of their business and this type of action will not be tolerated.

A good solicitor would never say that an employee will win an EAT hearing, simply because different companies have different businesses and different requirements. In one company it may be ok to tell a customer to get lost, in another it may be cause for dismissal.

Right now all the op can do is go to the meeting and put his/her case forward with an apology. And then wait to see what happens.

All that part has already taken place davo10, there was a full investigation. The next step is really just to inform OP of their decision.

Seanachai

pilly wrote: »

No-one has suggested that OP go in all guns blazing as far as I can see but they should have a back-up plan if dismissal is the outcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZ_FR_WLM0

Seanachai

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

With ten years good performance, a dismissal for this, particularly when it wasn't a case of abusing the customer and it's an isolated incident, would be way over the top and any good solicitor would have you saying through an EAT case.

I think a written warning is probably the most likely outcome. Just because cutting off a call is listed as gross misconduct does not entitle the company to fire you at will. Natural justice still prevails.

It resulted in a final warning, it turns out that it wasn't the customer that reported me. It was the guy who works in the department that the customer could not reach. The guy was what you could call a premium level subscriber and they are based in the UK. They have a history of not answering their phones and sometimes not being in the office at all. The customer was at boiling point and chewed the ear off the guy in the UK and this agent then reported me to the head manager in the UK.

When I think about the amount of times I've made excuses for this fella and had to take customer's details and then escalate to him because he wouldn't answer the phone or wasn't in the office at all.

pilly

Seanachai wrote: »

It resulted in a final warning, it turns out that it wasn't the customer that reported me. It was the guy who works in the department that the customer could not reach. The guy was what you could call a premium level subscriber and they are based in the UK. They have a history of not answering their phones and sometimes not being in the office at all. The customer was at boiling point and chewed the ear off the guy in the UK and this agent then reported me to the head manager in the UK.

When I think about the amount of times I've made excuses for this fella and had to take customer's details and then escalate to him because he wouldn't answer the phone or wasn't in the office at all.

Arsehole, but look don't let it eat you up because it may result in you exploding if you do and you're on your final warning.

Best of luck, I'm glad you weren't dismissed anyway. Did they say how long the warning will be on your file?

Seanachai

pilly wrote: »

Arsehole, but look don't let it eat you up because it may result in you exploding if you do and you're on your final warning.

Best of luck, I'm glad you weren't dismissed anyway. Did they say how long the warning will be on your file?

Twelve months

pilly

Seanachai wrote: »

Twelve months

Feck it anyway, but at least you know if you keep the head down you'll be fine. That's if you want to stay there.

cml387

Could be worse OP. Glad to hear you aren't fired anyway.

This bears out my experience in another industry, that you are more likely to be hung out to dry by "colleagues" in another office than by the customer

Seanachai

cml387 wrote: »

Could be worse OP. Glad to hear you aren't fired anyway.

This bears out my experience in another industry, that you are more likely to be hung out to dry by "colleagues" in another office than by the customer

The same fella probably had to go and have a break to get over the ordeal, the first question I would have asked him was 'why were you unreachable?, the phone line was supposed to be open'. Anyway, it is what it is.

Seanachai

I have an option to appeal the decision within five days, can appealing the decision backfire in that they could go back on their original decision?

_Brian

Seanachai wrote: »

I have an option to appeal the decision within five days, can appealing the decision backfire in that they could go back on their original decision?

I wouldn't see a position where they would take an appeal and then deal a more harsh decision.

On a separate note something mentioned above. The warning will be active for a year but the paperwork associated will always remain on your file.
Any employees I've taken over had old paperwork hanging round their file going back, old warnings and the like all there.

I'd be surprised at companies physically removing them, we were always told this was a biography no.

Manion

Seanachai wrote: »

The same fella probably had to go and have a break to get over the ordeal, the first question I would have asked him was 'why were you unreachable?, the phone line was supposed to be open'. Anyway, it is what it is.

Hi

You need to decide if you want to have a future at this place. If getting this final warning is going to adversely impact your behaviour in work from now on. Managers will be viewing your work for at least the next 12 months through this prism. I've seen what you describe happen before, where someone has helped, looked out for and even protected colleagues from management only to be thrown under a bus immediately by those same colleagues when they did something knuckle headed.

How are you going to handle it next time a call lands on you meant for this guy? I'd be looking for alternative employment.

Tzardine

Please note that your final written warning is for hanging up on a customer. If you were to have another issue in the future, such as lateness for example, this is a separate issue and the final written warning would have no impact on it.

Seanachai

Tzardine wrote: »

Please note that your final written warning is for hanging up on a customer. If you were to have another issue in the future, such as lateness for example, this is a separate issue and the final written warning would have no impact on it.

Okay, do you mean that I would have to hang up on a customer again for instant dismissal?

jimmycrackcorm

Tzardine wrote:

Please note that your final written warning is for hanging up on a customer. If you were to have another issue in the future, such as lateness for example, this is a separate issue and the final written warning would have no impact on it.

You don't get multiple final written warnings. There's a set of steps that you normally go through unless something serious enough warrants going directly to final written, or in the car of gross misconduct, to a dismissal.

Tzardine

Seanachai wrote: »

Okay, do you mean that I would have to hang up on a customer again for instant dismissal?

Essentially yes, although another gross misconduct issue would likely lead to dismissal.

Tzardine

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

You don't get multiple final written warnings. There's a set of steps that you normally go through unless something serious enough warrants going directly to final written, or in the car of gross misconduct, to a dismissal.

I have staff that are on final written warnings that also have have separate written warnings for separate issues. You could be on a final written warning for a gross misconduct issues, and have separate written warnings for sickness, lateness and God knows what else.

Each issue is its dealt with separately.

It is completely dysfunctional and drives me spare. ( Public service employer)

jimmycrackcorm

Tzardine wrote:

It is completely dysfunctional and drives me spare. ( Public service employer)

In private employers I've seen these being collated into an all in one go.

_Brian

Tzardine wrote: »

I have staff that are on final written warnings that also have have separate written warnings for separate issues. You could be on a final written warning for a gross misconduct issues, and have separate written warnings for sickness, lateness and God knows what else.

Each issue is its dealt with separately.

It is completely dysfunctional and drives me spare. ( Public service employer)

Definitely any final written warning I've given has specifically written into it that ANY further breaches of company policy during the period "may result in your termination". The PIP's associated also set the same expectation.

the position you describe above would be awfully frustrating.

TheDoc

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

In private employers I've seen these being collated into an all in one go.

Yeah that's a bit confusing. Pretty sure any private sector company I've worked in, it's treated all in the one. I've never heard of it being treated separately issue by issue