Man United vs Bournemouth

Donnielighto

niallo27 wrote: »

Big name player that sells papers. It's hardly a shock. He let himself and his club down down. Supposed hard man falls over.

Not clear who you're referring to at the end there.

niallo27

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Did he fall over when he elbowed or when he was on the ground when head stamped?

I think it's clear when he fell over. It was to get the player sent off. Did you watch the match or going off second reports

Corholio

Wanted to watch it a few times before deciding on it and both should be dealt with of course, both pretty thuggish. Zlatan's missed stamp a second before Mings was the start of it though, surprised at his whole falling over thing as well. Seemed a lot of nonsense for very little reason really. Both players 'explanations' were pretty embarrassing too. Refs get a lot of stick but players themselves certainly don't give them much help either sometimes.

Liam O

Love the whole "missed stamp" narrative that's been concocted. If Zlatan wanted to stamp on Mings then he would have, same if Mings wanted to miss Zlatan then he would have and if Zlatan didn't want to elbow Mings then he wouldn't have.

Both players should have been off.

The post two posts up is spot on

A Dub in Glasgo

niallo27 wrote: »

I think it's clear when he fell over. It was to get the player sent off. Did you watch the match or going off second reports

You mean when he was pushed and yes I watched the match

ThunbergsAreGo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You mean when he was pushed and yes I watched the match

Yeah for a man as big and strong as ibra the reaction was pathetic

Never like to see that. He cheated to get a player sent off

blueser

naughtb4 wrote: »

Yeah for a man as big and strong as ibra the reaction was pathetic

Never like to see that. He cheated to get a player sent off

As they said on motd, it was "disappointing" to see that from him.

ThunbergsAreGo

blueser wrote: »

As they said on motd, it was "disappointing" to see that from him.

Equally with the incident for the stamp, not sure why he is holding his leg before it happens

The_Kew_Tour

No wonder people dont want go into match threads when read rubbish like this.

Zlatan would not have needed to be sent off if ref had done right thing and sent off Mings first.

niallo27

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

No wonder people dont want go into match threads when read rubbish like this.

Zlatan would not have needed to be sent off if ref had done right thing and sent off Mings first.

True true but you can't take the law into your hands. I actually don't mind the elbow he deserved it but falling down to get a different player sent off was shocking.

A Dub in Glasgo

niallo27 wrote: »

True true but you can't take the law into your hands. I actually don't mind the elbow he deserved it but falling down to get a different player sent off was shocking.

Do you actually read what you type? You don't mind if players dish out a bit of violence but you are 'shocked' when players dish out a bit of 'simulation'?

niallo27

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Do you actually read what you type? You don't mind if players dish out a bit of violence but you are 'shocked' when players dish out a bit of 'simulation'?

He is only human. He did stamp on his head. It was wrong of course but I can understand why he did it and he will be punished. The whole hard man act and then falling over to get a player sent off, there was no reason for it.

fullstop

Liam O wrote: »

Love the whole "missed stamp" narrative that's been concocted. If Zlatan wanted to stamp on Mings then he would have, same if Mings wanted to miss Zlatan then he would have and if Zlatan didn't want to elbow Mings then he wouldn't have.

He tried to stamp on Mings, it's as clear as anything and if you choose to ignore it that's your own prerogative.

5starpool

I'm pretty sure this will be attributed to me being a Liverpool fan, but I just watched MOTD there and saw the incidents for the first time so will give my 2c.

What I think the most likely outcome will be, is nothing for Mings and a 3 match ban for Ibrahimovic as that was the more obviously deliberate act. Both could well get a ban, and I don't think Mings would have lots of grounds for complaint at that, but I think given where Mings is looking at the time of the incident it is far harder to argue that he meant it (although he very well might have, who knows) than Ibrahimovic.

Talk of him getting a 6 match ban or longer is pointless I think, won't happen. As I said, I'm going to be accused of being biased because of who I support but that is not the case, not that many will buy it I guess.

The_Kew_Tour

He looked at him before he stood on him.

He knew what he was doing as did Zlatan

GavRedKing

5starpool wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this will be attributed to me being a Liverpool fan, but I just watched MOTD there and saw the incidents for the first time so will give my 2c.

What I think the most likely outcome will be, is nothing for Mings and a 3 match ban for Ibrahimovic as that was the more obviously deliberate act. Both could well get a ban, and I don't think Mings would have lots of grounds for complaint at that, but I think given where Mings is looking at the time of the incident it is far harder to argue that he meant it (although he very well might have, who knows) than Ibrahimovic.

Talk of him getting a 6 match ban or longer is pointless I think, won't happen. As I said, I'm going to be accused of being biased because of who I support but that is not the case, not that many will buy it I guess.

Costa got a ban for "stamping" on skrtel or henderson, while like Mings, he wasnt even looking where he was landing and that was o a players ankle, not head.

If Mings doesnt get a retrospective ban id be surprised, there was no intent from Costa but that didnt stop the internet going mental.

The_Kew_Tour

GavRedKing wrote: »

Costa got a ban for "stamping" on skrtel or henderson, while like Mings, he wasnt even looking where he was landing and that was o a players ankle, not head.

If Mings doesnt get a retrospective ban id be surprised, there was no intent from Costa but that didnt stop the internet going mental.

Had look at that Match thread.

Interesting to see difference in opinions from same posters

5starpool

We'll probably find out in the next day or so anyhow who, if anyone, is going to get charged by the FA. As for saying "Well Costa gotone for similar" that is irrelevant as it assumes the FA is a consistent and competent organisation, which is clearly is not.

limnam

5starpool wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this will be attributed to me being a Liverpool fan, but I just watched MOTD there and saw the incidents for the first time so will give my 2c.

What I think the most likely outcome will be, is nothing for Mings and a 3 match ban for Ibrahimovic as that was the more obviously deliberate act. Both could well get a ban, and I don't think Mings would have lots of grounds for complaint at that, but I think given where Mings is looking at the time of the incident it is far harder to argue that he meant it (although he very well might have, who knows) than Ibrahimovic.

Talk of him getting a 6 match ban or longer is pointless I think, won't happen. As I said, I'm going to be accused of being biased because of who I support but that is not the case, not that many will buy it I guess.

As Carra mentioned on sky.

If he didn't mean it, why didn't he show any surprise when his foot landed on someone's head instead of grass? If he didn't mean it, he would have apologized.

Why did he look where ibra was before he planted the foot?
Not sure which angle MOTD showed but in sky replays it was very obvious he meant it.

They both clearly meant it and both should be punished.

Bridge93

For me even if he didn't mean it (I believe he did) that should only affect the length of sentence, not get him off. He stood on somebody's head. You can't be let get away with that intentional or not. There is a duty of care to players lying on the ground. Mings even if not intentional knew full well Ibrahimovic was on the ground beside him and that he would be standing in the vicinity of his head. It was at worst intentional and at best very reckless.
If that happens in rugby the player is before the disciplinary panel regardless of intention. If he gets off you open a whole grey area with players claiming they didn't mean to do things.

5starpool

limnam wrote: »

As Carra mentioned on sky.

If he didn't mean it, why didn't he show any surprise when his foot landed on someone's head instead of grass? If he didn't mean it, he would have apologized.

Why did he look where ibra was before he planted the foot?
Not sure which angle MOTD showed but in sky replays it was very obvious he meant it.

They both clearly meant it and both should be punished.

As soon as he started jumping he looked away and didn't look back towards Ibrahimovic, he didn't look back at him. He was aware of where he was when he started jumping and could well have done it deliberately, but he didn't look down at him before he planted his foot, that's for sure.

limnam

5starpool wrote: »

As soon as he started jumping he looked away and didn't look back towards Ibrahimovic, he didn't look back at him. He was aware of where he was when he started jumping and could well have done it deliberately, but he didn't look down at him before he planted his foot, that's for sure.

Watch it again.

limnam

Around 7 minutes in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr8jl3YQeTc

Beasty

The interesting thing for me was the time the ref spent speaking to him and Rooney. That suggests he saw something. If he saw the incident but decided not to act, is that not the end of the matter?

An alternative interpretation is he could have had a message from the 4th official who could see a video replay and maybe was telling Rooney and Ibrahimovic he could not act on that but that leaves scope for further action.

Personally I'm expecting Ibrahimovic to get a 3 match ban for that if it is reviewed. That's as much because he is so high profile the FA will want to be seen as acting and there would be an outcry if anyone thinks someone with such a high profile has "got away with it"

KaiserGunner

Beasty wrote: »

The interesting thing for me was the time the ref spent speaking to him and Rooney. That suggests he saw something. If he saw the incident but decided not to act, is that not the end of the matter?

An alternative interpretation is he could have had a message from the 4th official who could see a video replay and maybe was telling Rooney and Ibrahimovic he could not act on that but that leaves scope for further action.

Personally I'm expecting Ibrahimovic to get a 3 match ban for that if it is reviewed. That's as much because he is so high profile the FA will want to be seen as acting and there would be an outcry if anyone thinks someone with such a high profile has "got away with it"

The elbow is violent conduct and would warrant a three match ban anyway wouldn't it? It would have nothing to do with Ibrahimovic being a high profile player.

5starpool

limnam wrote: »

Watch it again.

I've watched it plenty of times.

limnam

5starpool wrote: »

I've watched it plenty of times.

Well Carra,Henry myself and many others seem to see something different to you. He was well aware exactly of where his head was, he could only know that if he looked, which he did.

5starpool

limnam wrote: »

Well Carra,Henry myself and many others seem to see something different to you. He was well aware exactly of where his head was, he could only know that if he looked, which he did.

He looked before he jumped, not before he landed. I can't see how you could say he looked while in the air and before he planted his foot having watched it several times.

This is far from a clear cut incident,it could go either way really, depends on how the referee interprets it in his match report I think. Since you are name dropping, Danny Murphy on MOTD has the same view as me, although Martin Keown thinks it was more deliberate.

S.M.B.

limnam wrote: »

Well Carra,Henry myself and many others seem to see something different to you. He was well aware exactly of where his head was, he could only know that if he looked, which he did.

While Danny Murphy and Martin Kevin are a little less sure.

It's nowhere near as clear cut as you are making it out to be imo.

PhlegmyMoses

I think it would be highly coincidental that Ibra and Mings had been at each other all game and then suddenly Mings has a look down, looks away mid jump and stands on his head accidentally. Carra had the right of it I reckon. That being said, there is enough doubt to maybe make the FA think about it. Unfortunately for Mings, the FA deals in probability of guilt rather than reasonable doubt, so he will likely get a decent ban.

limnam

S.M.B. wrote: »

While Danny Murphy and Martin Kevin are a little less sure.

It's nowhere near as clear cut as you are making it out to be imo.

What's clear is he showed no surprise to landing on someones head.

What's clear is he didn't apoligise.

What's clear is he looked and knew exactly where Ibra was.

There's very little grey in this.

He meant it. Ibra meant it. Both should be punished.

Clear cut.

54and56

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

No wonder people dont want go into match threads when read rubbish like this.

Zlatan Mings would not have needed to be sent off stamp on Ibra if ref had done right thing and sent off Mings sent Ibra off for stamping on Mings first.

Fixed that for ya

niallo27

I know it looks bad but is there a chance it was an accident. I mean stamping on someone's head is a pretty mental thing to do. Does he have history I just find it hard to believe a footballer would do that to another footballer.

limnam

niallo27 wrote: »

I know it looks bad but is there a chance it was an accident. I mean stamping on someone's head is a pretty mental thing to do. Does he have history I just find it hard to believe a footballer would do that to another footballer.

So mental that if you realized you did it you'd be shocked, worried for the player and go out of your way to say sorry and check if the player is ok.

Unless, you meant it.

54and56

limnam wrote: »

So mental that if you realized you did it you'd be shocked, worried for the player and go out of your way to say sorry and check if the player is ok.

Unless, you meant it.

And if you didn't realise you did it? Or were smart enough to give yourself the opportunity to be able to say you didn't realise you did it?

limnam

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

And if you didn't realise you did it? Or were smart enough to give yourself the opportunity to be able to say you didn't realise you did it?

I'm not sure how much football you play, but the ground rising 7 inches and changing consistency to skull like particles is fairly uncommon.

54and56

limnam wrote: »

I'm not sure how much football you play

Not much any more

limnam wrote: »

changing consistency to skull like particles

You really think at full tilt you can really tell the difference between a skull and an elbow or shoulder through your studs? Plenty of scope to say you felt something but given you don't have record of behaving like a thug and didn't immediately apologise to the other player (as you would have done if you had accidentally clipped him and realised it) it was in fact nothing more than an accident.

Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

limnam

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Not much any more



You really think at full tilt you can really tell the difference between a skull and an elbow or shoulder through your studs? Plenty of scope to say you felt something but given you don't have record of behaving like a thug and didn't immediately apologise to the other player (as you would have done if you had accidentally clipped him and realised it) it was in fact nothing more than an accident.

Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

If I landed on anything out of the ordinary knowing players were down around me I would plank myself and turn around to see what it was. I don't care if it was someones arm,hand,leg you know when the ground comes to 6-7 inches too high something has gone wrong and you stop.

The only time you don't is when you're expecting to feel someones skull because you're trying to stomp on it.

It was a disgustingly cowardly act not to mention how dangerous it was and he's a very very lucky boy that there wasn't a more serious injury.

Beasty

KaiserGunner wrote: »

The elbow is violent conduct and would warrant a three match ban anyway wouldn't it? It would have nothing to do with Ibrahimovic being a high profile player.

If they review it I've already indicated I would expect a 3 match ban. My question is if the referee saw it will they review it? In the past they certainly would not have, but I don't know if they've changed the rules on this specific point. If he didn't see it why did he spend so much time talking to the two of them?

limnam

Lets look at what ming can see at this point.



He has a clear view at this stage of what's in front of him.

If he doesn't hit grass it wouldn't take a genius to figure out what he landed on and no matter that was he should have reacted. He didn't because he set out to do it for been flung to the ground just before it.

Moist Bread

Nice clear picture.

5starpool

limnam wrote: »

Lets look at what ming can see at this point.



He has a clear view at this stage of what's in front of him.

If he doesn't hit grass it wouldn't take a genius to figure out what he landed on and no matter that was he should have reacted. He didn't because he set out to do it for been flung to the ground just before it.

He looked away to the left a microsecond after that still and didn't look back. He caught Ibrahimovic on the side of the head with a glancing foot (he didn't stand full force on the centre of his head) If he intentionally meant it in a Joey Barton type character way he wouldn't have been looking away.

It could easily have been a slight misjudgement where his foot would fall, and in my view more likely than he thought "right, I'll stand on his head but only a little bit that I can plausibly deny, but I definitely want to stand on him. I know exactly where I want my foot to land so I'll jump now and look away because I am confident I can catch him exactly where I want to".

mickmackey1

He couldn't really avoid contact cos Zlat has such a big 'ead.

limnam

5starpool wrote: »

He looked away to the left a microsecond after that still and didn't look back. He caught Ibrahimovic on the side of the head with a glancing foot (he didn't stand full force on the centre of his head) If he intentionally meant it in a Joey Barton type character way he wouldn't have been looking away.

It could easily have been a slight misjudgement where his foot would fall, and in my view more likely than he thought "right, I'll stand on his head but only a little bit that I can plausibly deny, but I definitely want to stand on him. I know exactly where I want my foot to land so I'll jump now and look away because I am confident I can catch him exactly where I want to".

If it was a misjudgment and you come down a fellow professional footballers head. You react, You turn to make sure they're OK. You apoligise.

The only time you don't is when you're expecting it.

The same way Ibra wasn't shocked his elbow was in someones face.

We're just going around in circles.

It was a disgusting act of cowardliness because he was flung to the floor and made look a fool moments before.

If you want to defend that, that's up to you.

Beasty

Only one person can actually know if there was any intent. For the rest of us it's speculation based on our interpretation of circumstantial evidence. Ultimately that's therefore a judgement call and however anyone on here views the intent none of us will have a say if it does get reviewed.

5starpool

No point continuing this discussion then if it is so black and white. We'll wait and see what happens over the next few days. Least arguments all round decision is for the FA to charge and ban both for 3 days, but it's far from certain. I absolutely do not see that Mings gets a far longer ban than Ibrahimovic like some have suggested should be the case though.

The_Kew_Tour

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Fixed that for ya

Easy see you know nothing anyway

Beasty

5starpool wrote: »

Least arguments all round decision is for the FA to charge and ban both for 3 days

Could live with that:pac:

bucketybuck

limnam wrote: »

If it was a misjudgment and you come down a fellow professional footballers head. You react, You turn to make sure they're OK. You apoligise..

I keep hearing this said but it isn't necessarily true at all, a player with a job to do would easily be focused on doing that job and everything else is secondary. If Ming was fully focused on getting back into position he wouldn't think twice about what his foot just landed on, it could have been a hand or a shoulder or nothing at all considering it didn't trip him up. Who gives a toss, get back into position and worry about it after. I mean, what do you think his manager would say if United scored because Ming stopped to say sorry to an opposition player? He would **** him out of it and rightly so, it isn't a damn playground.

I'm a United fan and I think he meant it, but this idea of "apologising" is a load of rubbish, fully focused highly competitive sports people don't stop in the middle of an attack to apologise for anything.