Welcome to the future!

unkel

Just watching a Bjørn Nyland video on YouTube, and I just had to take this still:



Norway. Small country on the verge of Europe with only 5 million people. Same as Ireland

But they are so far ahead of us, it's almost unreal. 40% of all cars sold are electric. The sale of ICE cars will be prohibited from 2025. That's less than 8 years away! Imagine if the Irish government announced that on Monday morning. The diesel boys would have a heart attack

Patser

Not saying you're wrong, but the big irony here is that Norway can afford all this big plan due to oil.

unkel

Yep, it's true, Norway was one of the poorest countries in Europe 100 years ago. And then they found oil. Ireland was also one of the poorest countries in Europe until 20 years ago. Now both countries are rich but they are using their resources in very different ways.

Did a little googling and above is the largest Tesla supercharging station in the world, and at that probably the largest EV charging station too

And Tesla is a 100% commercial company, not a cent of tax payers money went into that station. Charging is free (paid by Tesla, unlike in Ireland where charging is paid by the tax payer) and I don't think the Norwegian tax payer pays much if anything towards someone buying one of those nice Model S cars in the picture (unlike Ireland where the tax payer pays €10,000 towards anyone buying an EV)

It's government vision. Not money. That promotes EV ownership.

cros13

Patser wrote: »

Not saying you're wrong, but the big irony here is that Norway can afford all this big plan due to oil.

The incentives weren't that expensive, they largely just exempted EVs from VAT and their VRT equivalent and exempted them from government tolls. Non-cash incentives like bus-lane access were most effective.

Infrastructure got, for all intents and purposes, no subsidy.

In Ireland there is €23,089 of tax (€16,000 of VAT, €6,886 of VRT, €120 road tax and €83 VAT on delivery) on a base 60kWh rear wheel drive model S AFTER the SEAI grant and VRT credit. A fully specced Model X attracts just over €65,000 in tax after the SEAI grant and VRT credit.

My i3 had over €13,000 of tax on it after the grant and credit. On a base Leaf, the government still makes a net profit.

And now this year we face €170 million in EU fines for being one of only two countries in the EU-28 to miss our emissions target.
If 10% of the money we have to pay in fines between now and 2020 is spent on feed-in-tariffs for PV and EV infrastructure we'd have a shot at avoiding the fines.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

And now this year we face €170 million in EU fines for being one of only two countries in the EU-28 to miss our emissions target.

We should be ashamed of ourselves. We're one of the richest countries in Europe. We have all that wind and quite a bit of hydro and we could have so much Solar all of it free natural resources ready to be harvested.

And we should be ashamed that we buy more diesel cars than any other country in the EU

cros13

It's worse than that, we had the one of the most generous targets to hit.
25% lower target than the EU average at 15% below 1990 instead of the block-wide 20% (Sweden has the biggest cut... 49%).
This year we will not only have not cut emissions since 2005, we'll be up at least 1%.
Between now and 2030 we're facing at least €8 BILLION in fines.



Our per-capita emissions are now over 60% higher than the UK.

We largely only hit the 2007-2016 targets because of the recession. The government has been bone idle, failing to put in place even revenue neutral measures or minor regulatory changes.
Looking at the houses on the Falls road in Belfast last year... half the council houses had solar PV.

We're the ONLY country in europe without domestic net-metering or a feed-in-tariff for micro-generation and the only one that specified technologies for the commercial feed-in-tariff (effectively excluding solar PV). We've been building new homes with insulation standards lower than many german states required in the 1960s and allowing get-out-of-jail free cards like putting a few solar panels on the roof that can just be hooked permanently to the immersion (Part L).

Take a look at the barriers to installing solar PV on a house in Ireland:

1. The planning exemption is for roof-mount only and limited to 12sqm which for PV is an uneconomically small number of panels. A typical install on a semi-d in the UK is 4kW which is ~28 sqm.
   
   
2. You don't get net metering (exported units (during peak I might add) counting against your off-peak nighttime use and the net unit difference paid)
   
   
3. You don't get a feed-in-tariff or an export tariff of any description.
   
   
4. You pay full VAT and there are not tax write-offs (US has 30% writeoff on federal taxes, states often double that).
   
   
5. You have to pay ESB €370 for an import/export meter to record the number of units they're not paying you for (that they sold your neighbour for full retail without having to generate or carry the power across the HV or MV grid).
   
   
6. The standard european EN50438 certification for your inverter isn't enough, you need to provide a test cert showing it can operate according to an "Irish addendum" (exceeded or met by the 2013 version of EN50438 with one exception (undervoltage clearance time)) to the standard (which given the lack of a market here almost no manufacturers get done).
   
   
7. If you fail to import at least 2kWh/day with electric ireland you get fined a "low-usage surcharge" of €7.60.
   
   
8. The domestic single-phase export limit (MEC) is 5kWp and you have to certify that your production will be limited to that....in australia it's 50kWp
   
   
9. You are supposed to pay income tax on the export tariff they are not paying you.

And then we wonder why we're not hitting our targets when northern ireland has 100 domestic solar PV installs for every 1 down south.

Gumbo

^^^^^ it's worth noting that the roof coverage of PV / Solar Panels planning exemptions of 12 square meters is for the front of your house only. You can completely cover the rear elevation roof in panels without planning but obviously orientation plays a big role here.

cros13

kceire wrote: »

^^^^^ it's worth noting that the roof coverage of PV / Solar Panels planning exemptions of 12 square meters is for the front of your house only. You can completely cover the rear elevation roof in panels without planning but obviously orientation plays a big role here.

Sure, but in the UK there no such limit (with the exception of list buildings and conservation areas) and an exemption for some ground mounting. And beyond exempted installs in the UK there is an accelerated process for permission.

In practice in Ireland I've ignored the limits... but they do prevent wider adoption.

Gumbo

cros13 wrote: »

Sure, but in the UK there no such limit (with the exception of list buildings and conservation areas) and an exemption for some ground mounting. And beyond exempted installs in the UK there is an accelerated process for permission.

In practice in Ireland I've ignored the limits... but they do prevent wider adoption.

I have to disagree. On the front elevation some form of streetscape has to be retained instead of a field of PV/Solar panels. On new builds we should be designing more renewable elements , not only into the individual dwelling but into the estates and areas that they are built into.

I think planning should be request chargers in new estates and/or provisions for charging on all new homes and going forward charging spots in large public developments should be mantatory.

goz83

If we are to adopt an energy efficient model, you're spot on. As a country with so much potential in this area, we are seriously letting the side down. Cost for the average Joe to go renewable in any meaningful way is too high and information available is low.

Too many people say "the Gobbermint should do this and that and everything" but this really is a case of the Government needing to get the finger out and make it their business to get us going green. Reducing costs for solar. Giving a grant for an EV charge point to EVERYONE who buys an EV...not just those who buy new (most people seem to upgrade anyway and spend more money). Making sure planners have charge points included for any new developments, including a few on street spots.

listermint

goz83 wrote: »

If we are to adopt an energy efficient model, you're spot on. As a country with so much potential in this area, we are seriously letting the side down. Cost for the average Joe to go renewable in any meaningful way is too high and information available is low.

Too many people say "the Gobbermint should do this and that and everything" but this really is a case of the Government needing to get the finger out and make it their business to get us going green. Reducing costs for solar. Giving a grant for an EV charge point to EVERYONE who buys an EV...not just those who buy new (most people seem to upgrade anyway and spend more money). Making sure planners have charge points included for any new developments, including a few on street spots.

There is jobs galore to be created in the sector. It could be a strong way to fight off effects of brexit

bk

Patser wrote: »

Not saying you're wrong, but the big irony here is that Norway can afford all this big plan due to oil.

Yup and it is absolutely genius on their part.

They know that the Oil won't last for ever. So instead they focus on using their incredibly cheap and widespread hydro electricity (98% of their power generation) to power their cars, so that they can export as much of their Oil as possible to the rest of the stupid world who is addicted to oil.

They then invest the oil money in renewable technology like hydro, wave, etc. and into building infrastructure and education for their people. Positioning themselves extremely well for when the oil does eventually run out.

They know that their cars will continue to run on cheap hydro for generations after the oil runs out and that they will have built up an incredible lead in renewable and EV technologies.

Compare that to what the Saudi's, offering their own people super cheap petrol so that they can drive around in insane gold plated massive merc's, with little investment in alternative infrastructure or education to replace the oil money once it runs out.

I suspect Saudi Arabia is going to end up being a complete mess once the oil gravy train runs out.

I wish we in Ireland took a few lessons from the Norwegians. I have to say knowing lots of Norwegians and going their a few times for hiking (stunning country), I actually feel that Irish people are actually much closer to Norwegians then English people. I wish we looked to Norway more for partnerships and ideas, then defaulting to the UK all the time like most Irish people do!

Marcusm

unkel wrote: »

We should be ashamed of ourselves. We're one of the richest countries in Europe. We have all that wind and quite a bit of hydro and we could have so much Solar all of it free natural resources ready to be harvested.

And we should be ashamed that we buy more diesel cars than any other country in the EU

Depends on what you call hydro; while pumped storage at places like Turlough Hill is large (nearly 4 times production of Ardnacrusha), it is fuelled by wind, peat, gas and diesel! Norway by contrast is the world leader in hydro.

listermint

Marcusm wrote: »

Depends on what you call hydro; while pumped storage at places like Turlough Hill is large (nearly 4 times production of Ardnacrusha), it is fuelled by wind, peat, gas and diesel! Norway by contrast is the world leader in hydro.

Hydro is all types of water.

Wave energy is viable as is tidal. We need to pull the finger out with capital investments. The Dublin Property centric investments wont stand this nation in good stead for the next 100 years.

We need leaders at government level with more insight than their local GAA club or Pub.

professore

bk wrote: »

Yup and it is absolutely genius on their part.

They know that the Oil won't last for ever. So instead they focus on using their incredibly cheap and widespread hydro electricity (98% of their power generation) to power their cars, so that they can export as much of their Oil as possible to the rest of the stupid world who is addicted to oil.

They then invest the oil money in renewable technology like hydro, wave, etc. and into building infrastructure and education for their people. Positioning themselves extremely well for when the oil does eventually run out.

They know that their cars will continue to run on cheap hydro for generations after the oil runs out and that they will have built up an incredible lead in renewable and EV technologies.

Compare that to what the Saudi's, offering their own people super cheap petrol so that they can drive around in insane gold plated massive merc's, with little investment in alternative infrastructure or education to replace the oil money once it runs out.

I suspect Saudi Arabia is going to end up being a complete mess once the oil gravy train runs out.

I wish we in Ireland took a few lessons from the Norwegians. I have to say knowing lots of Norwegians and going their a few times for hiking (stunning country), I actually feel that Irish people are actually much closer to Norwegians then English people. I wish we looked to Norway more for partnerships and ideas, then defaulting to the UK all the time like most Irish people do!

Absolutely great post. Also agree on my admittedly limited exposure to one Norwegian, his childhood was very similar to mine growing up in Norway - and good craic too!

smurfjed

@BK

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Saudi-Arabia-To-Spend-50-Billion-On-Massive-Solar-Push.html

http://www.sunwindenergy.com/news/35-mw-solar-farm-saudi-arabia-completed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYRuQCMG1Uk

It might well be a case of too little too late, but as part of their new 2030 transformation program, they are trying to address the reality of low oil earnings.

cros13

I know someone who works with the world bank who's out there now helping them plan an income tax system.

The biggest problem is that the tribes and villages that effectively still make up Saudi are only really held together by spreading the oil wealth.

Marcusm

listermint wrote: »

Hydro is all types of water.

Wave energy is viable as is tidal. We need to pull the finger out with capital investments. The Dublin Property centric investments wont stand this nation in good stead for the next 100 years.

We need leaders at government level with more insight than their local GAA club or Pub.

I think you're missing my point; most of what we call "hydro" in Ireland is pumped storage meaning that other electricity sources pump water up a hill to allow it to be dropped down when extra load is required. This means that, leaving aside how much power is lost, that action is generatred through gas, diesel, peat or wind not water. By contrast, Norway with its rich oil resources is also rich is lots of steep gradients which have been dammed and from which genuinely new power is generated.

listermint

Marcusm wrote: »

I think you're missing my point; most of what we call "hydro" in Ireland is pumped storage meaning that other electricity sources pump water up a hill to allow it to be dropped down when extra load is required. This means that, leaving aside how much power is lost, that action is generatred through gas, diesel, peat or wind not water. By contrast, Norway with its rich oil resources is also rich is lots of steep gradients which have been dammed and from which genuinely new power is generated.

I'm missing no point.

You are missing the point, the whole capital investment post must have flown over your head...

And I don't require turlough hill explained to me.

jackofalltrades

cros13 wrote: »

The incentives weren't that expensive, they largely just exempted EVs from VAT and their VRT equivalent and exempted them from government tolls. Non-cash incentives like bus-lane access were most effective.

How much do all those incentives actually cost the Norwegian government though?
I'm guessing that if 40% of cars sold in this country were electric and we offered the same deal as Norway, then we'd be looking at serious budgetary issue caused by a drop in tax revenue.

If 10% of the money we have to pay in fines between now and 2020 is spent on feed-in-tariffs for PV and EV infrastructure we'd have a shot at avoiding the fines.

Would we though? Genuine question by the way.

Irelands Grid can't take any more renewable energy I thought ? already at 60% limit, 65% in 2018, so what would they do with all the domestic micro generation ?

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

Irelands Grid can't take any more renewable energy I thought ? already at 60% limit, 65% in 2018, so what would they do with all the domestic micro generation ?

I'm not sure that is true or not, but more interconnectors with England and Scotland and thus indirectly with Norway and France.

I suspect in the long term we will end up generating more then 100% of our electricity needs from wind and exporting it to UK and France, in exchange using their Nuclear power (and Norwegian hydro) when we need it.

We need to stop thinking of this on purely a national basis and think of it on a pan-european basis. Obviously Brexit complicates this, but I suspect it will be worked out.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

Irelands Grid can't take any more renewable energy I thought ? already at 60% limit, 65% in 2018, so what would they do with all the domestic micro generation ?

Wasn't aware of this. Do you have a link?

Big wind is not in the interests of the irish public. Micro-generation definitely is. I'm not saying that either should be excluded - but at the moment, domestic micro is (and that's not the case in other EU states).