No Autonomy in work

Chaos Black

Hi,

I'm relatively new to a junior role, although I do have experience and qualifications above my current role. Which isn't an issue, I understand as a new entrant I have to learn the ropes and earn trust. I am however really struggling with one aspect of the role, my line manager doesn't allow me any independence and actively discourages it!

The first few weeks I thought it might just be a very hands on approach to training, but I see others longer in the role get treated roughly the same. They might get just a touch bit less attention. Everything, down to very trivial stuff is micromanaged. Nothing can be done without extremely close scrutiny and as a consequence it is a very inefficient system. Not to mention demoralising.

From what I understand, my line manager was trained in by a micromanager. His point of view seems to be, that if any subordinate makes a mistake, that is his fault, so never give them a chance to. I get the impression he is not confident and spends so much time on the small stuff, that it leads to a large backlog of work between us all and inconsistent decision making when the pressure is on.

I've tried to "manage" the situation by trying to keep work to emails, so I can have a clear trail of instructions and if someone down the line asking where the issue is in our section, my ass is covered. I send multiple progress updates, daily. I ask once every few weeks if my line manager is happy with my work, does he have any issues and what more can I do. I haven't dropped the ball or made any more mistakes then any other new person would I feel.

I'm trying my best, but finding it increasingly difficult as work progress is extremely slow. Worse still, when I do show initiative, even if what I've done is good and got work done, that is a no-no.

Ultimately I don't feel like I have any autonomy in work. I keep it professional in work and don't moan about it to colleagues, but I'm going mad on the inside. I don't know if my body language gives it away, I try to keep a good poker face.

I'm of course looking for a new job, but in the meantime, any advice?

Creol1

It's very demoralising being micromanaged and treated like a puppet, in my experience. I recently resigned from a new job largely for that reason.

One idea I would suggest would be perhaps to talk to your colleagues and raise the matter via the union, if you have one. That would enable the situation to be addressed without it necessarily being clear that you raised the matter.

planstan

I've experienced similar. Can I make a wild guess and ask if you're in the civil service?

If so, you'll never beat the system. Keep job hunting and something will come up for you.

Have you considered that you are in a junior position and that if you do make a mistake it is his responsibility?

Is it a responsible position?
Is it a regulated area?
Are there elements of risk involved? Reputation, financial, contractual.

El Tarangu

How long have you been there, Op? If it's only been a few months, give it another few months, they might begin to give you more responsibility.

If it's already been a year, consider finding a new position.

Chaos Black

Thanks for the replies, I'll try to awnser questions without getting too specific.

It is the civil service, i'm in a few months now, not a member of any union. The role does leave me in a position with access to sensitive information and is more involved then some equivalent positions across the service from what I'm told.

I'd be hesitant to bring it up via a union, I'd prefer to bring it up directly and I think it would be identifiable who made the complaint.

Allot of the time is spent on managing very trivial, unimportant details, I won't say what as I don't want to go into specifics, but it goes way beyond normal standard operating procedures and is specific to the managers tastes rather then normal practice throughout the workplace.

I've had work which other managers approved, go through multiple minor adjustments for seemingly the sake of it by my line manager. It might improve the work by 1%, and even then arguably not, but prolongs the time it takes on tasks to the point where it is very counterproductive (imo).

For example, my normal workflow might be getting assigned a task, my line manager sets out exactly how it should be done, every step requires approval and review/changes before it can proceed. This is down to individual details, like a one liner sentence, internal email to a colleague. That email may take a 3-5 days to go out, rather then five minutes. The overall task can't proceed until I get an awnser, and I can't move it along, till my manager approves one sentence.

Multiply this across many tasks, and a backlog is created that is ever growing.

I don't think it is good for anyone, as my manager is trying to effectively do multiple people's ground work and for the subordinates like myself, it is demoralising.

I'd like to bring up the issue, in a how can I help you frame, but fear as a new entrant, I'm fighting an uphill battle here.

Mrs OBumble

Frankly, bring it up is not your responsibility - and your opinion about how things should be done is pretty irrelevant.

Your manager IS responsible if you f*ck up in any way.

If your manager's manager is unhappy with the backlog etc, then it is their responsibility to work with your manager to resolve the issue.

As a junior staff member your responsibility is to do things as instructed, and within appropriate civil service guidelines, and to make sure you don't introduce delays.

And if you don't like the level of oversight that you're getting, then it's time to go for a more senior position yourself.

ongarboy

OP, I dare say you may just not be cut out for the civil service as what you've described is almost like a caricature of what those of us who've never worked in the civil service imagine it to be. Something that should take 5 minutes taking 5 days would not be an issue (and in fact would be encouraged) for many who are happy to coast along or become deadwood but it sounds like you are too industrious and innovative for such a stagnant environment. A dynamic private sector role that encourages initiative, innovation, critical thinking, self starting and as per your problem title, autonomy would perhaps be more suited for you?

I suspect it is more cultural or institutional than just your particular line manager's work style. I imagine his manager and their manager also operate the same approach so it will be futile trying to raise this as an issue and only may turn them against you as you attempt to challenge the status quo, especially being a new entrant. For your CV's sake and future recruiting appeal, I would say grin and bear it for 6 months at least so you that you don't come across as someone who quits a job too hastily, regardless of the reason.

Chaos Black

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

To clarify, the manager requires oversight of tasks that don't require it and holds us to his own preferences, which aren't standard operating procedures and are extremely pedantic. It goes beyond playing it by the book. For example, requiring that we send on our personal notes to be approved and it could be sent back for numerous reasons which aren't always consistent, such as the font style & size.

I've had notes approved for weeks in one font & size (a widely used one in the office) , and then a talking to out of the blue for using the "incorrect" font & size in my own notes.

We had an internal policy document sent around the same day, in the exact same style I was using! That is very minor of course, but on a near daily basis it will happen. My manager told us the exact measurements of where he wants staples applied.

I don't think it is malicious and he is very nice in general, but that to me is way over the top, and no matter how it is delivered, it can feel condescending/ demoralising.

Mrs OBumble

Chaos Black wrote: »

My manager told us the exact measurements of where he wants staples applied.

ffs!

That sounds like he may have some kind of obsessive compulsive thing going on ... which sadly the company may need to facilitate, as it's a disability.

If you aren't able to just laugh him off (and if you're early to mid career I can see that you wouldn't be able to) - I would seriously be looking for a new job ASAP.

When someone asks why you're looking again so soon, at least you can honestly say that your experience isn't being used in your current role, ie can do it without bad-mouthing the manager.





Re the fonts - do you have any kind of marketing style guide? That's what should be used to determine look/feel of your documents ...

listermint

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

ffs!

That sounds like he may have some kind of obsessive compulsive thing going on ... which sadly the company may need to facilitate, as it's a disability.

If you aren't able to just laugh him off (and if you're early to mid career I can see that you wouldn't be able to) - I would seriously be looking for a new job ASAP.

When someone asks why you're looking again so soon, at least you can honestly say that your experience isn't being used in your current role, ie can do it without bad-mouthing the manager.





Re the fonts - do you have any kind of marketing style guide? That's what should be used to determine look/feel of your documents ...

I'd bad mouth the manager tbh. What's to be gained by telling lies and protecting idiots in the civil service just because.

If it were the private sector youd be dam sure the management style would be mentioned in a exit interview.

Based on your comments above across two posts your are very sensitive and protective of this style of amateur management.

It wouldn't fly in most organisations

Chaos Black

No internal marketing guide, you'd pick up common standards though from documents sent around internally and externally. I've actually copied documents entitled "standard template" for X purpose and had them sent back to me with adjustments requested for all sorts of reasons that weren't correcting content errors or anything of that nature.

I've even used my line managers work as a template, and when I sent on work in that format, had it corrected. I haven't had one piece of work yet that hasn't had some kind of adjustment, even if it is just rephrasing a sentence, with ultimately the same meaning.

beauf

ongarboy wrote: »

OP, I dare say you may just not be cut out for the civil service as what you've described is almost like a caricature of what those of us who've never worked in the civil service imagine it to be....

Well you'd be wrong. No one takes personal responsibility like that. You avoid being responsible for anything.

ongarboy wrote: »

I suspect it is more cultural or institutional than just your particular line manager's work style. I...

Micro managing, is almost always a personality quirk. Usually of poor management skills. Attention to detail is one thing. This isn't it.

http://www.leadershipthoughts.com/10-signs-of-micromanagement/

beauf

Chaos Black wrote: »

...I've even used my line managers work as a template, and when I sent on work in that format, had it corrected. I haven't had one piece of work yet that hasn't had some kind of adjustment, even if it is just rephrasing a sentence, with ultimately the same meaning.

Its classic micro management.

The only solution I found was to move internally, or change jobs.

beauf

listermint wrote: »

...

It wouldn't fly in most organisations

I found it more common in the private sector tbh.

As a contractor, or freelance, I would keep a spreadsheet of change requests the time taken, and the importance.

When the person paying the bills see what it costs, they usually get it stopped.

road_high

This manager must have flip all to do. As a manager of a small team I find nothing more satisfying than giving team members autonomy and independence in their work (it makes my life far easier too). Don't have time to be running after them over every little detail.
How does he/she get their own work done?

Chaos Black

I don't think he does, I know he has a backlog to approve for multiple subordinates, including myself. Some work would be sitting for 1-2 months, just waiting to get looked at. Obviously he then has his own work demands as well, so when the pressure is on, you can forget about anything shifting for periods.

I'm not sure if higher management are aware or would necessarily care. I know on my end I'm trying my best to remain positive and not compare myself to what is going on around me.

I make notes of every detail and try to adapt to the peculiarities, no matter how trivial they seem, as I figure railing against the system is more likely to make matters worse. Like I said before though, I would like to approach the issue in a productive manner, but I don't know the culture of the service. My line manager would probably make a great specialist, but their is healthy perfectionism and self defeating perfectionism.

beauf

It ends undermining people. Its an entirely destructive habit.

If the upper management haven't show any interest in the lack of throughput, its doubtful its a culture you can change.

AndrewJRenko

Chaos Black wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

To clarify, the manager requires oversight of tasks that don't require it and holds us to his own preferences, which aren't standard operating procedures and are extremely pedantic. It goes beyond playing it by the book. For example, requiring that we send on our personal notes to be approved and it could be sent back for numerous reasons which aren't always consistent, such as the font style & size.

I've had notes approved for weeks in one font & size (a widely used one in the office) , and then a talking to out of the blue for using the "incorrect" font & size in my own notes.

A simple solution to this would be a clarification question along the lines of "So is this the font/size that we should be using for notes from now on?"

I've no idea what area you are in, but in general, it's not a great idea for staff to be keeping 'personal notes' relating to their work. Keep the real documents and destroy the notes is a good general rule.

beauf

I think you are missing the point. The manager makes corrections even on stuff already agreed. They even re corrected their own stuff, which doesn't need correcting.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

... but in general, it's not a great idea for staff to be keeping 'personal notes' relating to their work. ...

Why on earth not.

AndrewJRenko

beauf wrote: »

I think you are missing the point. The manager makes corrections even on stuff already agreed. They even re corrected their own stuff, which doesn't need correcting.

Nope - not missing the point at all. The manager is chopping and changing, and so, needs to be tied to down to making clear decisions. So the employee asks a simple question, preferably by email, asking what font they should use for notes from here on out.

And if the manager tries to change their mind in future, the employee goes back to the earlier email.

beauf wrote: »

Why on earth not.

Because they are personal. Obviously, it's hard to be clear without understanding exactly what kind of work they are doing, and the OP shouldn't go into any specific details about that here.

But in general, personal notes don't form part of working files. Why would you want to keep personal notes? If you need justification for decisions, that should be part of the overall file, not in a personal note.

beauf

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

... if the manager tries to change their mind in future, the employee goes back to the earlier email...

Doesn't matter the manager will keep changing things. Its what micro managers do.

You're trying to apply logic, to someone who isn't being logical.

Because they are personal. ...

Yeah that doesn't explain anything. There is nothing wrong with taking notes. I'd be more concerned with people who don't take notes. However correcting someone else notes, is all kinds of wrong.

The issue is an irrational need to manage minute detail, like this. Then constantly change them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement

feature the frequent imposition of double binds and/or a tendency by the authority figure to exhibit hypercriticality

A double bind is an emotionally distressing dilemma in communication in which an individual (or group) receives two or more conflicting messages, and one message negates the other. This creates a situation in which a successful response to one message results in a failed response to the other (and vice versa), so that the person will automatically be wrong regardless of response.

beauf

In addition. if you clearly demonstrate to someone who does this, a record of their frequent changes, it obviously shows them in a very bad light. They will never accept this, they will take it badly. Because their personality is such as they will never accept they are doing something wrong. Their whole personality is based on being the person in charge and always right.

Its not a battle you can win.

You have to move sideways and out of conflict with them.

AndrewJRenko

beauf wrote: »

Doesn't matter the manager will keep changing things. Its what micro managers do.

You're trying to apply logic, to someone who isn't being logical.

It's not about logic, it is about managing up. There is nothing wrong with respectfully confronting a manager about crap like this - something like "I must be a bit confused now, as I thought we agreed last month that all notes would be in Helevetica 10pt" or similar.

If the manager does keep changing their mind, at least you have a hard record of this for when it comes to PMDS time, and you are protected.

beauf wrote: »

Yeah that doesn't explain anything. There is nothing wrong with taking notes. I'd be more concerned with people who don't take notes. However correcting someone else notes, is all kinds of wrong.

You're right - there is nothing wrong with anyone taking personal notes. The problem is with keeping personal notes on file, where they can be released through FOI and DP. You need a good reason to keep such notes - what would that reason be?

beauf

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's not about logic, it is about managing up. There is nothing wrong with respectfully confronting a manager about crap like this - something like "I must be a bit confused now, as I thought we agreed last month that all notes would be in Helevetica 10pt" or similar.

If the manager does keep changing their mind, at least you have a hard record of this for when it comes to PMDS time, and you are protected.

Well it works for you, confrontations with your manager on how illogical they are. Good for you. I've never seen a good outcome from that.

While its always good to cover your butt. (the PS seems to be driven by this) I just think being more dynamic and getting away from such a negative environment is far more productive way to deal with it. Easier to achieve in the private sector.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You're right - there is nothing wrong with anyone taking personal notes. The problem is with keeping personal notes on file, where they can be released through FOI and DP. You need a good reason to keep such notes - what would that reason be?

To aid recall on supplemental information.

EchoIndia

OP, this is not the way the civil service operates nowadays and anyone who believes this is the norm cannot be basing that on direct current experience. I think you have been unlucky in being placed with someone who is not sufficiently aware of their management style and how it can stifle initiative and demoralise you as their direct report. My advice would be that if you cannot manage to raise the issue directly (tactfully of course) with your immediate manager, consider doing so discreetly with their manager. If this situation was occurring in one of my units I would be concerned, as it is the direct opposite of what we need to foster in terms of encouraging initiative and allowing people to develop as they gain experience.

AndrewJRenko

beauf wrote: »

Well it works for you, confrontations with your manager on how illogical they are. Good for you. I've never seen a good outcome from that.

I've never seen a good outcome from failing to challenge the kind of nonsense described in this thread. It doesn't necessarily involve 'confrontation' - it can be done in a positive way, something like - here's a template that we can use for personal notes to make sure they have a consistent style and structure. Is this format good for you.

We're not in the sweatshops now.

beauf wrote: »

While its always good to cover your butt. (the PS seems to be driven by this) I just think being more dynamic and getting away from such a negative environment is far more productive way to deal with it. Easier to achieve in the private sector.

It may well be the smart thing to do for the employee to be looking for other options. But in the meantime, he still has this dick of a manager to deal with.

beauf wrote: »

To aid recall on supplemental information.

But if you need the supplemental information, it should be part of the main file, not the 'personal notes'. Maybe I'm getting hung up on the word 'personal' - just seems like a strange approach to me.

beauf

Well you said "confronting a manager"

I think you are still trying to appeal to someones common sense. When they have repeatedly demonstrated they have none. It might work with anyone else, other then a micro manager. YMMV.

I don't get your point about notes. I think you are fixated that notes are on a clients files. When a personal note might be instructions on how to complete a task.

But it doesn't matter what it. Its just being excessively edited, repeatedly.

amtc

I worked for a long time in a semi state. At a senior level. I learnt to tolerate certain quirks of the CEO. For example the name of the company was in Irish so apostrophes couldn't be used. I was mates with the marketing guy and we were both doing a Graduate Diploma in Leadership so we did a Brand Bible as our project. Worked wonders, as boss got kudos too.

I still left!

amtc

Just to add my direct boss had a name in Irish with a fada. I had done up a meeting note for a file ( only ever going to be seen by me and him ) but had used his initials without fada. He sent it back to me to be corrected. I brought it up at my review and costed as a per hour rate of my salary...never happened again!

AndrewJRenko

beauf wrote: »

Well you said "confronting a manager"

I think you are still trying to appeal to someones common sense. When they have repeatedly demonstrated they have none. It might work with anyone else, other then a micro manager. YMMV.

I don't get your point about notes. I think you are fixated that notes are on a clients files. When a personal note might be instructions on how to complete a task.

But it doesn't matter what it. Its just being excessively edited, repeatedly.

In fairness, I said "respectfully confronting a manager", which puts a slightly different emphasis. It's not about appealing to common sense. It is about sending out a clear message that 'I'm not going to take this crap' without doing anything that the manager can complain about. Something as silly as changing of mind about a preferred font over a short period should easily be challenged.

For the notes, I wouldn't consider instructions to be 'personal notes', but we're probably talking round in circles unless we know exactly what the OP is talking about.

I fully agree with you about it being excessively edited repeatedly.