The Journal poll on diesel restrictions

cros13

Someone on the Buying forum was suggesting to a low-mileage driver that they buy a diesel and if the DPF gives trouble just "delete" it and "You'll get better economy and performance and the issue will be permanently sorted."

Not a ****ing clue....

jackofalltrades

cros13 wrote: »

Someone on the Buying forum was suggesting to a low-mileage driver that they buy a diesel and if the DPF gives trouble just "delete" it and "You'll get better economy and performance and the issue will be permanently sorted."

Not a ****ing clue....

I remember a post where someone removed the EGR, DPF and the CAT.
And then made a comment that about polar bears dying.
People seem to think emissions automatically means CO2.

The NCT really needs to be changed to make sure that pollution reduction measures are in place and working properly.
Until that happens motorists won't have to bear the full financial cost of them.
If the government wants to disincentive diesels than a slight increase in tax rates for newer diesels would achieve this quite easily.
Given how slavish the average Irish motorist is for the "chape tax".

gctest50

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I remember a post where someone removed the EGR, DPF and the CAT.
And then made a comment that about polar bears dying.
People seem to think emissions automatically means CO2.
..........".

Those ones will just cause drive-by emissions gear to be introduced:



http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/news2/attention-drivers-your-emissions-test-just-got-easier/

bk

Some frightening figures, it is estimated that 27,000 people die every year in Britain as a result of pollution and 7,250 people die a year due to Diesel fumes!!

We don't have numbers for Ireland, but scaling them per population, that would mean 509 people a year die in Ireland due to Diesel fumes!! That is 4 times as many people as die due to road traffic accidents!!

Diesel fumes cause lung disease, cardiovascular disease and asthma.

oppenheimer1

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/diesel-cars-poll-restrictions-ban-restrictions-3270587-Mar2017/

68% , 11,800 people said NO to imposing stricter controls on diesels.

This just proves what I've been saying about the resistance of Irish people to change, it's incredible and even in light of the diesel emissions scandal see no need to restrict diesels.

It just reenforces the point I've been making that Irish people will not change to EV unless forced to in some way, forced as in much increased taxes on diesels.

140 odd a year to tax a Diesel for a year is just bloody insane and people will buy them on that bases alone that the motor tax is cheap, this incentive needs to be removed and greatly increased.

I know the above is only a tiny proportion of the population but it highlights a mindset that is strong in Ireland.

The amount of Coal Smog in my village at times is just downright disgraceful and despite much better alternatives people are deluded into thinking the bag of Polish Coal (bag of slack more like it) is the best thing ever and won't even touch smokeless fuels not that they're clean either but they greatly reduce the smog/smoke .

It just goes to prove that a significant amount of people couldn't care less about air quality in Ireland.

I think you've inadvertently highlighted a bigger issue for local air pollution than diesel use, particularly in the Irish context. Air pollution from burning solid fuels, even renewables such as timber have a much more detrimental effect than diesel which has at least some anti pollution measures.

Going after diesel first is like fixing the dripping tap before addressing the burst waterman in your house

n97 mini

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think you've inadvertently highlighted a bigger issue for local air pollution than diesel use, particularly in the Irish context. Air pollution from burning solid fuels, even renewables such as timber have a much more detrimental effect than diesel which has at least some anti pollution measures.

Going after diesel first is like fixing the dripping tap before addressing the burst waterman in your house

That is certainly true, but where diesel pollution is at its most concentrated is the city centre where there are a lot of people, in vehicles but also walking and cycling. Open fires or stoves will be few and far between as most heating will be either gas or electric.

isnottheword

n97 mini wrote: »

That is certainly true, but where diesel pollution is at its most concentrated is the city centre where there are a lot of people, in vehicles but also walking and cycling. Open fires or stoves will be few and far between as most heating will be either gas or electric.

There's no problem with drawing attention to the fact that other sources of c02/particulate are equally or more relevant in terms of environmental impact. However, that shouldn't be used as an argument not to bother to disincentivise consumers considering buying diesel from new at this point.

bk

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think you've inadvertently highlighted a bigger issue for local air pollution than diesel use, particularly in the Irish context. Air pollution from burning solid fuels, even renewables such as timber have a much more detrimental effect than diesel which has at least some anti pollution measures.

Going after diesel first is like fixing the dripping tap before addressing the burst waterman in your house

Well it is mad that burning of smoky coal, peat and wood in rural Ireland continues.

However it isn't really an issue in our cities any more since the smoky coal ban in the cities and most people moving to gas, etc.

As a result the air quality of rural Ireland is surprisingly worse then Irish cities!

However Diesel fumes is a much bigger problem in our cities, due to the amount of cars, the amount of congestion on our roads and how close people live to those roads in our cities.

Both are bad issues in their own right and lead to many deaths due to air pollution and both need to be tackled.

cros13

bk wrote: »

However Diesel fumes is a much bigger problem in our cities, due to the amount of cars, the amount of congestion on our roads and how close people live to those roads in our cities.

Yup my air monitoring equipment register worse air quality in Portlaoise than when I had the same equipment in Dublin 2. The problem in Dublin 2 was primarily ozone, in portlaoise it's PM2.5 particulates..

oppenheimer1

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I remember a post where someone removed the EGR, DPF and the CAT.
And then made a comment that about polar bears dying.
People seem to think emissions automatically means CO2.

The NCT really needs to be changed to make sure that pollution reduction measures are in place and working properly.
Until that happens motorists won't have to bear the full financial cost of them.
If the government wants to disincentive diesels than a slight increase in tax rates for newer diesels would achieve this quite easily.
Given how slavish the average Irish motorist is for the "chape tax".

EV's have low tax and low running costs and they are still very niche.

Increase tax on diesel and you'll push people to petrol as the performance from alternatives isn't there yet. The country won't then be able to meet it's commitment to CO2 targets

cros13

A massive tax on new sales of all non plug-in vehicles would be a good compromise.
There's at least one PHEV or EV option in most segments now.

In studies in Norway by their transport ministry, 90% of PHEV mileage was done on electric.
Even if the first owner doesn't plug in for whatever reason the second owner can.

flatty

bk wrote: »

n97 mini wrote: »

Though IMHO, as someone who lives in the GDA, Dublin Bus is one of the biggest offenders and is doing nothing to move off diesel. Plenty of CNG and electric alternatives.

Actually they aren't they are surprisingly decent! All new DB and BE buses bought since 2014 use Euro 6 engines.

The Euro 6 rules are vastly stricter for buses and trucks then they are for cars.

A Euro 6 Dublin Bus produces less then half the NOX of a Volkswagen Golf.

Let me repeat that because it is pretty shocking, I don't mean per passenger, I mean vehicle to vehicle. As in a 2016 Dublin Bus with just the driver in it, produces less then half the NOX then a 2016 Volkswagen Golf sitting next to it in traffic!!!!

Now add 80 or so passengers to the bus and that buses is producing about 160 times less NOX then a VW Golf!!!

And yes, before anyone says it, yes this numbers have been varied in the real world by the same independent group that discovered the VW Diesel gate cheating.

Basically the Euro 6 rules for buses and trucks are very strict, requiring real world testing, etc. Whereas Germany, etc. had the rules for small cars vastly watered down to help the German car industry. All quite shocking really.

It also helps that big vehicles can more easily fit physically larger engines with more gearing and large filtration units that wouldn't fit in a Diesel car.

It shows just how terribly pollution Diesel cars are that they produce significantly more pollution then a Dublin Bus!

BTW I agree that DB should start getting hybrid diesel buses for even greater efficiency. The problem is DB don't actually buy buses, new buses are actually bought and owned by the NTA and temporarily lent to DB for their use on PSO routes. Hybrid buses are more expensive to buy, but obviously cheaper to run, which can offset the higher purchase cost. The problem the NTA have, is that they pay for the buses, but DB pays for the Diesel. So if the NTA buys hybrid buses, they will get stuck for the extra cost of them, while not benefitting fro the lower running costs. This needs to be changed, perhaps by the NTA paying for the fuel costs too, but reducing the PSO subsidy as a result.

Also the argument from the NTA is that given their budget they can either buy 100 Euro 6 buses per year or 70 hybrid buses. Given that these new buses replace the oldest, least efficient and most polluting buses in the fleet. The argument goes that 100 Euro 6 buses will actually result in less NOX and CO2 being produced then 70 hybrids. Note that Euro 6 buses produce about 80 times less NOX then the older Euro 5 engine buses, which produces a lots less then even the old Euro 4 buses, some of which are still kicking around. Hybrid buses are only 30% less polluting then a straight Euro 6. So you can see why an extra 30 Euro 6 places displacing 14 year old Euro 4 buses can have a massive positive effect, much greater then going hybrid.

So it is a lot more complicated story then it might initially seem.

It's the particulates that are causing the most concern though.

flatty

n97 mini wrote: »

zulutango wrote: »

Is NOx the only gas emission that concerns us? Or are there other gasses that diesels spew out that are harmful?

PM (Particulate Matter). Aka smuts. Doesn't exist with petrol engines unless they are direct injection (very very few).

The executive summary is NOx produces respiratory problems as it burns the lungs and PM causes lung cancer.[/quot]
Evidence implicating particulates in both dementia, and fetal abnormalities.

flatty

n97 mini wrote: »

zulutango wrote: »

Is NOx the only gas emission that concerns us? Or are there other gasses that diesels spew out that are harmful?

PM (Particulate Matter). Aka smuts. Doesn't exist with petrol engines unless they are direct injection (very very few).

The executive summary is NOx produces respiratory problems as it burns the lungs and PM causes lung cancer.[/quot]
Evidence implicating particulates in both dementia, and fetal abnormalities.

gctest50

flatty wrote: »

Evidence implicating particulates in both dementia, and fetal abnormalities.

And serious heart problems

The particulate matter from "new" diesels is so small that your lungs can't filter it properly

zulutango

bk wrote: »

Well it is mad that burning of smoky coal, peat and wood in rural Ireland continues.

This thread is a real eye opener. I would always have seen burning untreated, dry timber as 'not too unhealthy'. Obviously synthetic materials are a complete no no. I have a lovely wood stove in my kitchen and now and again the smoke finds it's way into the room, especially when it's just been lit. Is this terribly bad for my lungs?

gctest50

It's not the now and again, it's more

- how much is it "leaking" all the time and you don't notice ?

You can get room-sealed stoves - the have an air-feed pipe from outdoors

gctest50

Someone carts around a dust monitor for a day - not the heights of science but anyway:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/12175306/Is-my-wood-burning-stove-really-killing-me-What-happened-when-I-monitored-my-exposure-to-pollution.html

After an hour of mine burning brightly, the dial settled between 41ug/m³ and 43ug/m³ in my sitting room. This is still within “moderate”, but Prof Grigg said you might want to start worrying if you exposed yourselves to long, sustained periods at this level

gctest50

http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h2757/rr-1

Few people who install wood stoves are likely to understand that a single log-burning stove permitted in smokeless zones emits more PM2.5 per year than 1,000 petrol cars and has estimated health costs in urban areas of thousands of pounds per year.[6]




6.- current wood heater models are too polluting to be allowed - cause heart attacks, strokes, lung diseases, dementia, cot deaths & affect children's development

zulutango

Yikes!

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think you've inadvertently highlighted a bigger issue for local air pollution than diesel use, particularly in the Irish context. Air pollution from burning solid fuels, even renewables such as timber have a much more detrimental effect than diesel which has at least some anti pollution measures.

Going after diesel first is like fixing the dripping tap before addressing the burst waterman in your house

I was more highlighting a general mindset in Ireland, burning coal and diesel is the accepted Norm and one that's going to take a very long time to get over.

I know there is an all Island smoky coal ban due to come into effect for 2018 but I expect it will not be enforced, the sale of smoky coal would need to be illegal but who's really going to monitor this or care in Ireland ?

A smoky coal ban is fine but they they'll allow BNM to sell other dangerous fuels.....

We need to insulate homes much better than we do but I expect they won't because the more that comes out of our pocket for burning fossil fuels the more the Government make despite the billions we import, it's a mad situation.

When the big bright lights come on in the GAA in my village, it's a huge eye opener the extent of the local pollution but the locals don't bat an eyelid, they're so used to it that they can't even see it !

in one newer estate built in the Boom here there are no chimneys and the difference here is amazing, it's all Gas.

In the older Council estate the council installed all oil heating for the houses that remain council owned and most of them burn Coal despite even though they installed modern efficient oil boilers, I can't get my head around that one, they should have sealed up the chimneys , chimneys loose a substantial amount of heat from a house......

jackofalltrades

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

EV's have low tax and low running costs and they are still very niche.

Increase tax on diesel and you'll push people to petrol as the performance from alternatives isn't there yet. The country won't then be able to meet it's commitment to CO2 targets

I think protecting peoples health is more important than reducing our CO2 emissions.
And I'm fairly sure the financial cost of traffic pollution will far outweigh the cost of any fines.

cros13 wrote: »

A massive tax on new sales of all non plug-in vehicles would be a good compromise.
There's at least one PHEV or EV option in most segments now.

I don't think the market for the above vehicles is mature enough yet to start brining in heavy financial penalties.
That and I doubt demand could be met if a sudden change was to happen.

Deleted User wrote: »

I was more highlighting a general mindset in Ireland, burning coal and diesel is the accepted Norm and one that's going to take a very long time to get over.

Diesel really isn't the norm though for a lot of drivers.
It's only a recent choice mainly driven by low tax, lower purchase price and cheaper fuel.
Change the above and people will go back to petrol.
We can see that this is already starting to happen anyway.

Alu

n97 mini wrote: »

PM (Particulate Matter). Aka smuts. Doesn't exist with petrol engines unless they are direct injection (very very few).

The executive summary is NOx produces respiratory problems as it burns the lungs and PM causes lung cancer.

Speaking of smutty... This morning a diesel taxi in front of me was spewing out plumes of the stuff. Luckily I had the aircon set to recirculate.

Poor kids walking to school though, having to breathe in that ****e.. City taxi drivers should be encouraged to buy hybrids or EVs.

unkel

Alu wrote: »

City taxi drivers should be encouraged to buy hybrids or EVs.

They are already. €10k subsidy on the car. Free electricity at all public charge points - including fast chargers (for now). It is beyond me why there aren't more EV taxis already. Go to the Netherlands (electricity not free at all at public chargers) and you will see many Tesla Model S taxis

Evd-Burner

unkel wrote:

They are already. €10k subsidy on the car. Free electricity at all public charge points - including fast chargers (for now). It is beyond me why there aren't more EV taxis already. Go to the Netherlands (electricity not free at all at public chargers) and you will see many Tesla Model S taxis

A huge factor there is they have priority at the airport and other taxi queues. They go straight to the front, or as it is now they go ahead of ICE cars and behind the other EV's, it a lot of cases if you don't have an EV as a taxi driver you will have to wait much longer for a fare.

n97 mini

Deleted User wrote: »

I know there is an all Island smoky coal ban due to come into effect for 2018 but I expect it will not be enforced,

I didn't know that but it should be far easier to enforce as (I would think) it will be illegal to import it, so it can be stopped before it gets onto the market.

bk

cros13 wrote: »

Yup my air monitoring equipment register worse air quality in Portlaoise than when I had the same equipment in Dublin 2. The problem in Dublin 2 was primarily ozone, in portlaoise it's PM2.5 particulates..

Can I ask, which device are you using, I was thinking of getting something like this.

cros13 wrote: »

A massive tax on new sales of all non plug-in vehicles would be a good compromise.
There's at least one PHEV or EV option in most segments now.

Add to that an extensive charging network like they have in Norway and you are on a winner.

flatty wrote: »

It's the particulates that are causing the most concern though.

Yes, I didn't mention PM, because it is directly linked to NOX. If you reduce the NOX, you also reduce PM levels, they go hand in hand. The Euro 6 standards also specify very low PM levels. A 2016 Dublin Bus still produces less then half the amount of PM as a 2016 Volkswagen Golf :eek:

Deleted User wrote: »

in one newer estate built in the Boom here there are no chimneys and the difference here is amazing, it's all Gas.

Yes, it is mad. I remember growing up in Cork city before the smoky coal ban. It was insane how thick the smog in the air was back then! It is so much better now it isn't even funny.

I have asthma and while I can't proof it, I'd be very surprised if pollution wasn't the cause.

Even putting aside health issues. I remember my dad having to paint both the inside and outside of his house every year, because the walls would be so dirty from smoke. Since he and all his neighbours moved to gas, he hasn't had to paint the place in years and it still looks great.

Just think of the cost and effort of having to paint your place every year!

The old Irish ways of heating homes just doesn't make any sense. As you say, insulate your house to within an inch of it's life, block up chimneys and use alternative forms of heating.

I live in a modern apartment, what a difference! Even during the coldest months of winter, all I need is 1 hour of heating and the places remains super warm for the rest of the day!

Alu wrote: »

Poor kids walking to school though, having to breathe in that ****e.. City taxi drivers should be encouraged to buy hybrids or EVs.

It is already pretty much in their interested. A Diesel makes no sense for the typical stop/go traffic a taxi typically encounters. Prius hybrids are actual super popular with taxi drivers. The fantastic reliable build quality of a Toyota, combined with great fuel economy in stop/go traffic.

Most full time taxi drivers either have a Prius or are looking for one (second hand). The guys you see driving Diesels are normally part timers. Guys who normally have another job and just come out in the evening for a few hours using their crappy personal car to earn a few extra bob.

I agree that more effort should be put in by the NTA to fix this. The idea of leaving BEV's jump the taxi queue at the airport is a great one. 2 to 3 hours wait is pretty normal for the taxi drivers at the airport, so jumping that would allow them to earn a lot more fares and help offset the cost of a Tesla.

Also I think the regulator should just ban all Diesels.

n97 mini wrote: »

I didn't know that but it should be far easier to enforce as (I would think) it will be illegal to import it, so it can be stopped before it gets onto the market.

Yup, most of it is currently coming in from Northern Ireland. While it wouldn't be impossible to get, it will be much harder. A small step in the right direction.

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

I didn't know that but it should be far easier to enforce as (I would think) it will be illegal to import it, so it can be stopped before it gets onto the market.

You would think it would be easier to enforce but remember the E.U wanted to impose a ban on burning the bog in a certain part of Ireland (I can't remember where) ? and there was crazy protesting. Same might happen with coal.

The problem I have is that smokeless coals will still be legal to burn and they're not clean, then you will be able to burn Turf , briquettes etc and these fuels give off highly dangerous particles. Solid fuels should be completely banned.

I'd much rather see LPG become much cheaper with greatly reduced tax and have people convert to gas rather than kill people with solid fuels.

Yes we all love a nice fire but FFS not as a permanent means of heating your home.

isnottheword

Deleted User wrote: »

You would think it would be easier to enforce but remember the E.U wanted to impose a ban on burning the bog in a certain part of Ireland (I can't remember where) ? and there was crazy protesting. Same might happen with coal.

There's an inequitable scenario there, however, If the government wanted to take a leadership position on that, they would have started to rationalise and shut down bord na mona years ago.


Instead of that, they put the onus on traditional turf cutters - whose homes (not in all cases but in some cases) were built around turf burning. Taking my elderly parents as a case study, they have a big old house built 1922 - with a large solid fuel range.

There is no practical way of heating it outside of turf.

(anyways, that's my 2cents - don't want this thread to take off on a tangent).