Illegal parking in Limerick

zulutango

riverrocked wrote: »

I have never double parked on any of these streets. There are plenty of places to park nearby to "rush in". How long is a "rush in"?

Patrick Street outside the Red Hen is awful in the evening and on Sunday for this.

I think if we had a spree over the course of a few weekends/evenings where people were ticketed or their cars were towed then this would decrease drastically. Re-do that once a year (sporadically) and people will be less likely to risk it.

You will always get a few people who think that the rules don't apply to them but they can just keep paying the fines.

It's not that complicated to enforce it.

There is nobody justifying illegal parking and there is nobody arguing against enforcement, but one or two people are arguing against designing streets to influence driver behavior.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

There is nobody justifying illegal parking and there is nobody arguing against enforcement, but one or two people are arguing against designing streets to influence driver behavior.

No we're simply pointing out to you that no matter what the street design, people will double park when they know there's no chance of getting caught and fined.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote:

No we're simply pointing out to you that no matter what the street design, people will double park when they know there's no chance of getting caught and fined.

I never disagreed with that.

jsd1004

zulutango wrote: »

Phog, I can tell you it's a fact that more enforcement costs more money than less enforcement.

And the Champs Elysee point is just silly.

It's ridiculous to say that street design doesn't influence driver behavior.

It does not need more enforcement. Tickets need to be handed out for cars that are parked illegally instantly. The use of hazards should constitute an immediate ticket. Genuine emergencies should need a warning triangle placed 100m behind the car. Without one you get a ticket. Irrespective if you stop to let some one out or collect someone. In the car or not. Couriers/taxis the same.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

There is nobody justifying illegal parking and there is nobody arguing against enforcement, but one or two people are arguing against designing streets to influence driver behavior.

Talk about missing the point.

In fact, it's probably more that you want to drive an agenda rather than accept the fact that illegal parking is happening next of attitude and lack of policing it.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

Phog, I can tell you it's a fact that more enforcement costs more money than less enforcement.

And the Champs Elysee point is just silly.

It's ridiculous to say that street design doesn't influence driver behavior.

We've the people employed already, get them to issue on the spot times or tow aways for all illegal parking for a few weeks and the word will get out.

It's also silly to say design is the cause of illegal parking when you have been given examples of narrow streets that have the exact same illegal parking as wide streets. The thing in common is drivers attitude and lack of enforcement.

Irish_rat

One of the worst is Wickham Street constant idiots parking on one of the lanes effectively blocking traffic up.

zulutango

phog wrote:

In fact, it's probably more that you want to drive an agenda rather than accept the fact that illegal parking is happening next of attitude and lack of policing it.

What agenda is this?

I totally accept illegal parking is happening and I totally accept policing it is important. Where have I said anything to the contrary?

zulutango

phog wrote:

We've the people employed already, get them to issue on the spot times or tow aways for all illegal parking for a few weeks and the word will get out.

Do you think they're underworked or something? Do you not accept that more enforcement means more cost?

phog wrote:

It's also silly to say design is the cause of illegal parking when you have been given examples of narrow streets that have the exact same illegal parking as wide streets. The thing in common is drivers attitude and lack of enforcement.

All I'm saying is that there are multiple reasons for illegal parking and the way the streets are designed is one of them. Do you disagree?

Jofspring

I'd have to disagree that street design is a cause for illegal parking. People will do it regardless. Most streets in Limerick have parking available with Car Parks near by and the really narrow ones with no parking are nearly worse for illegal parking. I see people double park at the top of Thomas Street near foxes bow/Thompsons. That's narrow and has traffic going in both directions but doesn't deter them. A car park only a few metres away also.

I'd would also admit I have double parked while someone has run into a shop for two seconds but never on the Main Streets in Limerick (William or O'Connell) and never in small narrow streets that would cause obstruction. Stopping for two minutes on a quiet street causing no obstruction is ok in my eyes. Double Parking on a Main Street, getting out and actually leaving the car there while you do shopping in town is a disgrace though and should be immediate towing away not a parking ticket.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

What agenda is this?

Don't be so coy

zulutango wrote: »

Do you think they're underworked or something? Do you not accept that more enforcement means more cost?



All I'm saying is that there are multiple reasons for illegal parking and the way the streets are designed is one of them. Do you disagree?

Where have I said anyone is underworked? I do however think there's a softly softly approach to illegal parking. Are you implying that the current resources are too busy to clamp down on the illegal parking? So I don't think we need to pump huge money into patrolling illegal parking.

I don't accept street design is a huge contributory factor in illegal parking, I'll repeat I blame the attitude of drivers & authorities is the main factor why it's happening in this city.

Parchment

Many people are a$$holes. Thats the reason. They are selfish and dont care about anyone else.

L.T.P.

Double-Parking is nothing other than ignorance, the typical "I'll do what I want attitude" that pervades through Irish society.
The lack of basic respect and complete lack of enforcement is the issue.....

zulutango

Parchment wrote: »

Many people are a$$holes. Thats the reason. They are selfish and dont care about anyone else.

It really isn't as simple as that. For example, Jofspring above thinks it's ok to illegally park on a quiet street for a few minutes. I certainly wouldn't think he or she is an a$$hole for doing so. Do you?

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

It really isn't as simple as that. For example, Jofspring above thinks it's ok to illegally park on a quiet street for a few minutes. I certainly wouldn't think he or she is an a$$hole for doing so. Do you?

He said many people, not everyone. And he's right.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

He said many people, not everyone. And he's right.

So, many people who park illegally are assholes, but some people who park illegally are not? Where do we draw the line?

zulutango

Jofspring wrote: »

I'd have to disagree that street design is a cause for illegal parking. People will do it regardless. Most streets in Limerick have parking available with Car Parks near by and the really narrow ones with no parking are nearly worse for illegal parking. I see people double park at the top of Thomas Street near foxes bow/Thompsons. That's narrow and has traffic going in both directions but doesn't deter them. A car park only a few metres away also.

I'd would also admit I have double parked while someone has run into a shop for two seconds but never on the Main Streets in Limerick (William or O'Connell) and never in small narrow streets that would cause obstruction. Stopping for two minutes on a quiet street causing no obstruction is ok in my eyes. Double Parking on a Main Street, getting out and actually leaving the car there while you do shopping in town is a disgrace though and should be immediate towing away not a parking ticket.

I think you're proving my point to be honest. You're basically making a justification for illegally parking in some situations (i.e. quiet street). And we probably all do it to varying extents. We do it because we can. On the one hand there's nobody stopping us in many cases, and on the other hand we know that we're not causing a total hold up of traffic. If you accept the latter reason, then you have to agree that street design does play a part. The fact that there are total pricks out there who will park illegally regardless of the effect on everybody else doesn't negate the point. You will need policing and enforcement so long as there is a culture that tolerates this behavior.

riverrocked

zulutango wrote: »

So, many people who park illegally are assholes, but some people who park illegally are not? Where do we draw the line?

To me everyone who parks illegally is an asshole while doing it. It doesn't matter if the street is quiet or if they are "rushing in" or popping in for "2 seconds", those time frames do not compute with me if you exit your car on a double yellow line you are breaking the law and in that moment you are an asshole and should be fined or have your car towed away.

The reason that people do it on such a grand scale is solely down to lack of enforcement.

People are more likely to buy a tv licence not because they believe that what RTE produces is worth their money but because of the possibility of them getting caught and fined without it.

The excuse "sure I was only..." shouldn't be allowed to wash.

Parchment

Irish_rat wrote: »

One of the worst is Wickham Street constant idiots parking on one of the lanes effectively blocking traffic up.

They are in Lilys getting their lovely eyebrows drawn on!!

zulutango

riverrocked wrote: »

To me everyone who parks illegally is an asshole while doing it. It doesn't matter if the street is quiet or if they are "rushing in" or popping in for "2 seconds", those time frames do not compute with me if you exit your car on a double yellow line you are breaking the law and in that moment you are an asshole and should be fined or have your car towed away.

The reason that people do it on such a grand scale is solely down to lack of enforcement.

People are more likely to buy a tv licence not because they believe that what RTE produces is worth their money but because of the possibility of them getting caught and fined without it.

The excuse "sure I was only..." shouldn't be allowed to wash.

Do you accept that more enforcement costs more money?

riverrocked

zulutango wrote: »

Do you accept that more enforcement costs more money?

More money than what? Than not doing anything about it? Everything costs more money than not doing anything.

Saying that, if as I had already suggested we had random blitz of fines issued then the government would bring in money from fines. Lets say 100 people get fined €60 over the course of a day, that is €6000. Now it will take some man power to do that, so lets have that at 5 people paid €12/h each working an 7 hour day. That comes to €420. Now lets include another €500 for admin, that's €920. Now lets subtract the number of people who will try not to pay the fine, hmm half? so that reduces the amount brought in to €3000 subtract admin costs, lets go with another half just to be generous, so we are now left with €1500. Subtract the cost of applying this over one evening and you still come out with €580 with the added knock on effect that some people will not do it again or at least not in a hurry.

Redo this action maybe 4 times a year and boom the people who are "just popping in" will think twice about risking it and the assholes will just keep getting fined.

(My sums are as good as anyone's guess as to how much it would cost and how much revenue would come in, saying we can't do something because it will cost money is ridiculous if that was the case nothing would get done)

zulutango

You would only have enforcement for 7 hours a day? A few posters here want enforcement all over the city at all times. And I can see why. Some of the worst offending (plenty of examples have been given in this discussion) are in the evening time. But if you want wardens and traffic cops on the streets all the time all over the city then there's a major cost associated with that.

In any case, it's ridiculous to suggest that how a street is designed has no influence on driver behavior. It's patently obvious that double parking happens persistently on Parnell Street, for example, because the lane is wide enough for it to happen.

riverrocked

My solution has been the same throughout this thread. Random blitz. It is more than likely locals who are parking illegally as they know they can get away with it so if you have blitz a few times a year then word will get around pretty quickly, don't you know that people will be on the radio and in the newspapers whining about their tickets when they were only "popping in" or that there isn't enough parking in the city, there is plenty of parking in Limerick, it is another poor excuse. Parking in Limerick is also cheaper than in other cities in the country so using that as an excuse is ridiculous too.

As for road layout, I haven't mentioned that but I think it is a poor excuse as people who park anywhere, will park anywhere! We see them in the bus lanes, we see them on the paths, we see them blocking up single lanes. The blinkers go on (and something they don't) and suddenly their car is immune.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

In any case, it's ridiculous to suggest that how a street is designed has no influence on driver behavior. It's patently obvious that double parking happens persistently on Parnell Street, for example, because the lane is wide enough for it to happen.

The lane widths on Parnell St are soon to be reduced and I guarantee you the double parking will still occur.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The lane widths on Parnell St are soon to be reduced and I guarantee you the double parking will still occur.

Yes, it will still occur but not to the same extent. I would make a bet with you but we will have no way of proving this. Also, I'm not sure if the cycle lane is still in the plan. If it is, then I'm sure people will park on it as they do on practically every cycle lane in the country.

zulutango

riverrocked wrote: »

My solution has been the same throughout this thread. Random blitz. It is more than likely locals who are parking illegally as they know they can get away with it so if you have blitz a few times a year then word will get around pretty quickly, don't you know that people will be on the radio and in the newspapers whining about their tickets when they were only "popping in" or that there isn't enough parking in the city, there is plenty of parking in Limerick, it is another poor excuse. Parking in Limerick is also cheaper than in other cities in the country so using that as an excuse is ridiculous too.

As for road layout, I haven't mentioned that but I think it is a poor excuse as people who park anywhere, will park anywhere! We see them in the bus lanes, we see them on the paths, we see them blocking up single lanes. The blinkers go on (and something they don't) and suddenly their car is immune.

I'm all for a blitz. Enforcement plays an important role. Yes, there is plenty of cheap parking in the city and there is no excuse for illegal parking. So, I think we're in agreement on all that.

And I'd say we are not too far from agreement on the other point, that the design of a street can lead to poor parking. It is not an excuse for it but it is an important factor nonetheless, and we can see that all over the city.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Yes, it will still occur but not to the same extent. I would make a bet with you but we will have no way of proving this. Also, I'm not sure if the cycle lane is still in the plan. If it is, then I'm sure people will park on it as they do on practically every cycle lane in the country.

So your admitting that people will double park on a road no matter how it's designed. Which is what we've all being saying all along.

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote:

So your admitting that people will double park on a road no matter how it's designed. Which is what we've all being saying all along.

I've been saying all along that there'll be a certain amount of it and that policing is very important. Read back through my posts! You and Phog seem so convinced that I have an agenda that you're assuming a contrary position without actually reading what I'm saying. I'd encourage you to put your prejudices to one side and look art arguments rationally.

Parchment

Forget law and the needs of others - lets just poop on the streets!

stefanovich

The traffic wardens must have been instructed to ignore the problem. They need to start giving out hefty fines to people parked up on William street. It's like a slalom some days.