Corporal Punishment

Grandeeod

As a spinoff from the Tuam mother and baby home thread, I thought I'd start this one. Lots of talk on the other thread about the cruelty inflicted on children by the Catholic church. A slightly lesser issue was corporal punishment in Catholic run schools. Corporal punishment was abolished in 1982 in Irish schools.

Some background. I started school in 1975. I spent all my school life in Dublin and all schools right up to secondary were Catholic run. I spent all of junior infants and half of senior infants in a school staffed by lay people and never saw any form of corporal punishment. I moved to a different school half way through senior infants that was run by the Holy Faith Sisters. This was my first experience of corporal punishment. While my teacher was a lay person, the principal was a Nun. I even remember her name, Sister Concepta. The teacher never doled out corporal punishment. The Nun did it. I got my first belt of a cane from her at the age of 6 because someone in the class wouldn't own up to doing something. So we all got it. Something similar happened in first class after I was accused of stealing, which I hadn't.

I moved to a different school for second class because the previous school was an infant school that only operated up to first class. My second class school was run by lay people, yet the cane was doled out by the principal on a regular basis and for very little. Half way through second class I moved to a different part of Dublin and enrolled in a newly built school that was staffed by lay people. Corporal punishment was still legal, yet it was like a different world to my previous school. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that Corporal punishment was on the way out. I don't know. But it was very different.

My secondary school was run and staffed by brothers along with lay people. In a post corporal punishment Ireland, you could still sense the danger. While there was no official corporal punishment, there was lots of rough handling from the Brothers and I witnessed a lot of illegal and unnecessary rough stuff from some lay teachers that were obviously still stuck in a pre 1982 world. By the time of my Leaving Cert in 1989, the school was a different place.

So any "oldies" that can genuinely talk about their experiences of corporal punishment? Mine were at the tail end of it and experienced more so in Church staffed schools in Dublin, if only by a principal at least.

Noddyholder

I started school 1964/5, Christian brothers run, from the start there was beatings and punishment, mostly with a black strap, sometimes with a cane, later on teachers came in and some of them would put the brothers to shame, I distinctly remember lads getting servery beating by teachers, nothing was ever done about it and no one dared complain,
Wonder what them brothers & and teachers think now of there behaviour.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I started school in 1948. I can't remember.

Live65a846d0ee

To the jail

Jack the Stripper

Celia Black Tutorial wrote: »

I started school in 1948. I can't remember.

I started in 48 too. Great summer that year.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Jack the Stripper wrote: »

I started in 48 too. Great summer that year.

Was it? I was 4, so have absolutely no recollection of the summer before starting school.

I went to primary school in England. No clergy in the school but plenty of corporal punishment.
It wasn't outlawed until around 85/86

Jack the Stripper

Celia Black Tutorial wrote: »

Was it? I was 4, so have absolutely no recollection of the summer before starting school.

You were best friends with Alice right?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Jack the Stripper wrote: »

You were best friends with Alice right?

I know you are taking the mick and trying to be amusing but you have totally lost me.

The only teacher I had that doled it out was the most anti Church teacher I ever had. Think it was 84/85 and he used to keep sally rods in water to keep them supple to make it sting that little bit extra. The real pain was the initial crack...and then when the numbness wore off. Used to get it on the hand but a friend got welts across his back.

The following year, 6th class, the teacher was extra nice because he knew what we had gone through, I still meet him and tell him what a gentleman he was.

Badly Drunk Boy

I started school in 1977. The only corporal punishment-related incident that affected me was in 1980 when Mrs Finnerty took my wooden ruler to smack a friend and neighbour of mine. The ruler broke in two, and she didn't replace it. Seven year old me wasn't impressed. (We were fairly poor so the ruler was probably sellotaped back together afterwards, but I don't remember that bit.)

So basically, corporal punishment didn't figure much in my schooldays.

Alf Stewart.

Jack the Stripper wrote: »

I started in 48 too. Great summer that year.

Wasn't as good as the one in 69.

Those were the best days of my life.

Jack the Stripper

Alf Stewart. wrote: »

Wasn't as good as the one in 69.

Those were the best days of my life.

I remember it well, rode Mary Rose under the suspension bridge one night after a whoolie.

MilesMorales1

Not in school no, from my dad I did. School punishments involved being kept in a room, no class or nothing, not being let out for lunch, for days and days (not like 24/7, school hours) and endlessly copying out the bible.

My dad used to beat me black and blue though, broken bones and black eyes and whatever else throughout my entire childhood. Doesn't ****ing work as a discipline method, as I'm still a little ****.

_Brian

I started in '76
For first two years was beaten every day for writing with my left hand. It of course didn't work and only resulted in poor handwriting forever. Imagine the evil of beating a four year old for this. I was afraid to tell my parents as I just thought it was normal. Not a religious ran school.

Right up to 6th class the cane was used frequently and without mercy, those of us with lesser abilities got it more. Lads from families of distinction never got the cane - ever !

In secondary '84 onwards a few digs were handed out but not too often.

Pinch Flat

Started school in a Christian brothers school around 1975. Can remember getting caned and struck with the leather strap which the principal (a brother) carried around his waist. One lay teacher broke a kids shoulder - nothing much can of it. Imagine it today.

Alf Veedersane

I always thought Corporal Punishment would have been a great name for a character in Mortal Kombat.

Noddyholder

What was it that made grown adults believe that by hitting children,sometimes very serverly, they would install discipline and respect. ? All for what I can see is they installed hatred and distrust .

MilesMorales1

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

My dad used to beat me black and blue though, broken bones and black eyes and whatever else throughout my entire childhood. Doesn't ****ing work as a discipline method, as I'm still a little ****.

Jesus. That's grim. I think of my Dad who was in his mid 40s when I was born so never had the all action all sports playing Dad. Used to look at other Dads kicking every ball with their sons at GAA matches and think they had it great. But my Dad was very different, he'd read me poems, or the newspaper, he hung on my every word, if I got into trouble at school he'd laugh it off...and never so much a raised his voice to me, let alone a fist.

_Brian

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Started school in a Christian brothers school around 1975. Can remember getting caned and struck with the leather strap which the principal (a brother) carried around his waist. One lay teacher broke a kids shoulder - nothing much can of it. Imagine it today.

That reminded me, I saw a teacher tear a lads ear lobe while lifting him by the ears.
His trick was life you by the ears, let go and slam his hands onto your ears before you hit the ground.

Noddyholder

My father never raised a hand to any of us, Now my mother that's a different story...

taylor3

I remember a nun by the same of Sister Eileen belted my hand with hers just for talking to the girl beside me in 3rd class. I was about 8. Totally uncalled for. But to honest not all the nuns were bad in my school, quite strict but thankfully didn't always lash out.

Miss Demeanour

Never got a slap.....as a child anyway.

Remember my sister being belted alright though at school then getting horsey rides on the teachers lap before home time to make her forget

Noddyholder

Noddyholder wrote: »

My father never raised a hand to any of us, Now my mother that's a different story...

If I was really out of line, we were threatened with the wooden spoon by my Mum. This would involve raising it about an inch off the hand and administering the softest tap she could manage. But it caused commotion! In my teens I was threatened with boarding school once or twice and Dad would intervene and say no child of his was being sent to boarding school.

We were a very soft bunch really!

I was never ever slapped in school and didn't witness it happening to others. There was a more subtle abuse carried out by a particular teacher alright. If you weren't one of her pets you didn't get a look in. I of course wasn't and remember feeling left out.

At home I got many a slap.

Stigura

_Brian wrote: »

His trick was lift you by the ears, let go and slam his hands onto your ears before you hit the ground.

That sounds a fair trick, to be honest. Not quite up to the level of the famous competition at Jasenovac. But, entertaining to himself. I'm sure.


I remember, in infant school days, teachers catching two kids fighting, or what ever. The craic then was to bang their heads together. Quite literally! I piss on your canes and leather straps! Try crashing skulls against one another! :eek:

Mr O'Shea was a bit of an expert at that craic (Crack?) To this day, I fondly remember the time he took a swipe at me, from behind his desk. I just moved my head and the bastard missed. The look on his face!

It was a bit like this:

Grandeeod

Deleted User wrote: »

The only teacher I had that doled it out was the most anti Church teacher I ever had. Think it was 84/85 and he used to keep sally rods in water to keep them supple to make it sting that little bit extra. The real pain was the initial crack...and then when the numbness wore off. Used to get it on the hand but a friend got welts across his back.

The following year, 6th class, the teacher was extra nice because he knew what we had gone through, I still meet him and tell him what a gentleman he was.

84/85? But wasn't corporal punishment abolished in 82? Or was that teacher just doling it out anyway?

osarusan

Grandeeod wrote: »

84/85? But wasn't corporal punishment abolished in 82? Or was that teacher just doling it out anyway?

I was slapped in the face by my principal and it was in the 90's.

Grandeeod

osarusan wrote: »

I was slapped in the face by my principal and it was in the 90's.

I remember a lad in Secondary school in the late 80s getting pushed and dragged around the place after having a piece of wood thrown at him.

Going Strong

Noddyholder wrote: »

What was it that made grown adults believe that by hitting children,sometimes very serverly, they would install discipline and respect. ? All for what I can see is they installed hatred and distrust .

That's my take on it as well. It always seemed to be the teachers who were useless at their job as well who'd indulge in corporal punishment. The majority of my teachers seemed to have no trouble controlling a class without hitting us.

The worst one I had was our English teacher. The foolah thought that acting like the biggest kid in the room made us respect him when it was the complete opposite. Then he'd start ranting at us that we didn't respect him before losing his rag altogether and wading into us with his fists.

Viscount Aggro

Thats nothing. Anyone from the 80's who went to Benildus College, Dublin, will remember <SNIP>.
They invented corporal punishment.
Another teacher used a heavy curtain rod to hit people. he used to foam at the mouth when he jumped in the air, to get a better swing. He called it Mr Tickler.

Mod: Please do not name individuals.

Aglomerado

I started school in 1981, I remember getting a slap of a ruler on the hand from my teacher in Junior Infants (I don't remember my transgression). Another teacher in third class (c. 1985) hit me over the head with a book because I'd fallen asleep in class! :D:D The principal had a big stick in her classroom where she taught 5th and 6th, and used to brandish it at us at times but never used it. She was the only horrible teacher in that school. (I've no grudges against the other two who did hit me, they were lovely otherwise!)

Nothing in secondary school, not even a teacher throwing anything at us. It was a really well-run and respected school.

My dad started school around 1950-1951 (same school I went to) and remembers walking barefoot to school like most children did there. The teacher used to stomp on childrens' feet with her court shoes in front of the rest of the class when they misbehaved. :(

BrokenArrows

In the early 90's one of my teachers smashed a kids face into the board out of frustration. He deserved it to be fair, but you could see the look on her face as she realised what she did and if the kid had reported her she would be ****ed.

razorblunt

Chaos ruled O.K. in the classroom
As bravely the teacher walked in.

razorblunt

Our 3rd class teacher (back in 1993) used to give us a belt in the back on occasion, he'd do the twisted ear thing too.
It was a bit strange as sometimes you'd get it for misreading a word or not keeping up with the reading. We didn't think much of it at the time, but it all stopped when a guy's Dad came in and threatened to report him.

In 6th class a teacher hit a guy a thump in the chest, that you could see out of frustration. Proper dig too, the lad deserved it but you could see the teacher was visibly shook at what he had just done.

ScumLord

Grandeeod wrote: »

Corporal punishment was abolished in 1982 in Irish schools.

Was it? I thought it was much later than that. Teachers I had right up to secondary school used it. I was in school after that ban so, I know two of our primary school teachers were raging alcoholics and were often drunk in class, sometimes they got sent home if they went too far.

The main threat was the principal though, he'd deal out beatings like they were good advice. The primary school didn't have any nuns or priests though. I think a priest would call in very frequently but I don't remember one being a teacher.

The secondary school did have nuns but they were being phased out as we were coming in. We had one there throughout my years but she had spent time in the states and was literally the nicest person you would ever meet, there wasn't a violent bone in her body.

The principle, again, was a nut case. He'd go manic at any sort of messing, you'd get sent to stand outside his office but he'd forget you're there and when he came back he'd basically forgotten what he got so upset about. So at least with him you'd know that he'd eventually lose interest in punishing you. The primary school teacher wasn't like that, he was in your business, he was very dedicated which would have been a good thing if it wasn't for the violence.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Father got drunk one night in his 20s and went up to the house of a fella who flogged him in Primary School.

Coward hid behind his wife in his pajamas. Fathers two mates eventually managed to drag him away from the front door before the guards were called, he was so emotional that he started crying.

This is not a violent man but he never forgot what that animal did to him.

FanadMan

Had a couple of teachers in primary school who were quite vicious. One used to pull you up by the ears or the hair. Would also throw chalk, wooden dusters, bunches of keys or really anything that came to hand. Another one used to slap the kids across the face for any tiny transgression. Got a few whacks from him across the head with one of those large wooden set squares. It all stopped when the father (a giant of a man) of one of the lads came to the school and dragged the teacher across the bonnet of a car and threatened to kill him if he ever touched his son again.

razorblunt

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Father got drunk one night in his 20s and went up to the house of a fella who flogged him in Primary School.

Coward hid behind his wife in his pajamas. Fathers two mates eventually managed to drag him away from the front door before the guards were called, he was so emotional that he started crying.

This is not a violent man but he never forgot what that animal did to him.

That doesn't paint your father in a great light either, to be quite honest.

Lorelli!

My dad told me a few stories. He said that they would have to hold out their hands to get hit. The natural reaction was to pull your hand away but if you did that, he said you'd get it worse. So you'd just have to stand there with your hands trembling.

He also told me about one teacher who was very old. He said the teacher didn't have a clue what was going on in the class half the time. They'd all be running a muck and then someone would decide to do a loud whistle and the teacher always freaked out when someone would do it but still someone always did it. Theyd say "ah **** what did ya whistle for?"

I was smacked on the hand by a teacher when I was in low infants. Must have been around 1988 and I remember a teacher in secondary around 2000/2001 losing it and pulling a lad out by the ear. The lad was really annoyed about it and the teacher was visibly shocked at himself.

RayCon

There was a teacher back in my primary school days that kept a sliotar on his desk and would throw it full force at your head if there was a peep out of you during the class. Arsehole ... hope he tied screaming.

mynamejeff

I recall getting a few slaps off teachers in secondary school , never primary. it would have been in the mid to late 90s
it was a religious school
it was always after a line had been crossed usually it was the weaker teachers and never the religious orders

never did me any harm to be fair


while i do realize and agree that historically in Ireland and across the world there was some complete nut bags involved in education but
I reckon a lot of people exaggerate what happened many years ago filtered through the memory of a child to play the victim and to elicit sympathy

andekwarhola

Got the usual strappings in Christian Brothers primary school, especially from one sadistic cnut that I clashed with and who didn't like me because I'd come from England.

That said, kids at that school apparently suffered worse stuff than strapping so maybe I was relatively lucky.

Even after corporal punishment was banned, one particular teacher in secondary school occasionally slapped or punched some of us as well. Not something you'd see these days. In fairness, it was a rough school and some lads usually gave as good back.

Elemonator

I'm too young to remember any of this. I'm a 90's kid. Can I just ask, why did none of the students ever just hit back? Was there a fear of religious order members and teachers or is this part of it forgotten?

whisky_galore

Jesus.
It's like a different planet compared to now and not so very long ago either.

wexandproud

started school in 68 in a school run by nuns and no memories of it either way . secondary school was a different story . Some right wicked fcukers both lay people and brothers but also some lovely brothers and lay teachers . Got a few clatters around the head myself .
i can still remember the day one poor lad gave a smart answer to a [not very] christian brother and got an awful beating around the class , the next day a knock came to the class door and when the brother opened the door he was greeted with a fist in the face , flat on his back with the chaps father standing over him telling him what he thought of him . Classroom was a much different place after that

MonkieSocks

Started school in 1960,

Some kids were hit with the "Leather" but worse was the cane to the tip of your fingers on a cold morning.

To be honest it didn't happen too often.

The worst part of the week was Monday Morning.

Parish Priest ( Later Made A Cannon By The Church ) would come into class and pick out the lads who he didn't see at 10am Mass the day before.

Brutal beatings they got Fist and Boots.

You might have been at the mass but if he didn't see you THEN you wern't there.

But I have some great memories from Primary School too.

We had a Christian Brother who got a lot of us involved in Choirs and Plays.

Gilbert and Sullivan, Oliver,Etc Etc Etc.

Greta Craic, and the memory that overrides the negative ones

The Specialist

razorblunt wrote: »

That doesn't paint your father in a great light either, to be quite honest.

I think it paints his dad in a great light? If you are a little patethic ****head who bullies people,dont be surprised if they come back looking for blood. Its the least you deserve.

Grandeeod

ScumLord wrote: »

Was it? I thought it was much later than that. Teachers I had right up to secondary school used it. I was in school after that ban so, I know two of our primary school teachers were raging alcoholics and were often drunk in class, sometimes they got sent home if they went too far.

The main threat was the principal though, he'd deal out beatings like they were good advice. The primary school didn't have any nuns or priests though. I think a priest would call in very frequently but I don't remember one being a teacher.

The secondary school did have nuns but they were being phased out as we were coming in. We had one there throughout my years but she had spent time in the states and was literally the nicest person you would ever meet, there wasn't a violent bone in her body.

The principle, again, was a nut case. He'd go manic at any sort of messing, you'd get sent to stand outside his office but he'd forget you're there and when he came back he'd basically forgotten what he got so upset about. So at least with him you'd know that he'd eventually lose interest in punishing you. The primary school teacher wasn't like that, he was in your business, he was very dedicated which would have been a good thing if it wasn't for the violence.

Yeah officially it was abolished on February 1st 1982 by regulation, but here's the funny bit. It wasn't a criminal offense until 1996! So I can see how lots here and even myself witnessed overly agressive behaviour from teachers into the late 1980s.

Edit: Despite it being banned that year, the only sanction for a teacher would be "guilty of conduct unbefitting a teacher and will be subject to severe disciplinary action." FFS, with unions and stuff, would a teacher have even been sacked?

Lorelli!

Lorelli! wrote: »

My dad told me a few stories. He said that they would have to hold out their hands to get hit. The natural reaction was to pull your hand away but if you did that, he said you'd get it worse. So you'd just have to stand there with your hands trembling.

The natural reaction was to pull the hand away and close it. 2 risks. The rod would catch the top of the fingers. Or worse, it would crack the knuckles as you closed your hand. Both of those were worse than getting it on the palm.

JupiterKid

I started school in 1979 at the age of 4 and AFAIK canings were still being used but being a little goody two shoes I myself never got caned. I moved to different primary school in 1983 and secondary in 87 and there was no corporal punishment. Just long lines and essays and detention though a couple of teachers did have ferocious tempers and would scream at unruly pupils.

Instilling fear into small children is no way to educate them.

My ex is 10 years older than me and well remembers the leather strap in both primary and secondary school. Once in primary he was belted and his dad went up to the school and lost it at the principal. He was never touched again.