General purpose PC for CompSci student, c. €750

Boglander

Just registered here, so hello and thanks in advance for any help! Some background before I get onto the question list (and apologies this is so lengthy but I want to be as clear as possible what I'm after):

I've had my current desktop machine for about 6 years - I've upgraded/replaced a few components over the years but not the board, CPU, or GPU. It's still in good working order and I'm not having any real issues with it, but I'm now studying a CompSci HDip (going onto Masters) and want something more powerful and with a larger OS drive. At the same time my parents need to replace their old and very outdated desktop, so I'll be passing mine onto them for the time being as it's more than strong enough for their needs (for as long as it lasts).

The Asus Zenbook laptop (Windows10) I'm mostly currently using for college work is great as far as portability goes but is low on storage space and isn't exactly a workhorse. I plan to use my new desktop for most of the work I do from home and just use the laptop when on campus. I only need the machine itself - my parents don't need any of my current peripherals as they bought a new monitor fairly recently (which their old desktop struggles to cope with) and have everything else they need.

So you know what I'm coming from, these are the specs of my current machine:

CPU: Intel i5 661
MB: Zotac H55-ITX-CE
Case: Silverstone SG05 (w 300W Silverstone PSU)
RAM: 8GB DDR3 1333MHz
GPU: 1GB ATI Radeon HD5770 Sapphire
SSD: 80GB Intel X25-M 2.5" SATA II
HDD: 1TB WD 5400RPM SATA 3.5"
Notable peripherals are an external DVD drive (no room in the case for one) and a mains-powered TP-Link USB3 hub (as the PSU is a bit weak).

I bought the parts in Hong Kong (was living in Asia at the time) with the intention of assembling it myself, but the shop did it for me gratis. I've done enough swapping parts around inside machines at this stage to be confident I can assemble my next one myself. I originally got it with 4GB of RAM and only upgraded a year or two ago - was quite surprised at how little obvious difference it made to the performance.

Onto the template questions:

1. What is your budget? [I'd like to keep it under about €750 if possible but can go up to €1000 if particular parts are worth the extra outlay]

2. What will be the main purpose of the computer? [(1) Programming work - I'm not too far into it, but the course has a fairly strong focus on data analytics and machine learning, and I'd like it to be able to handle well anything I may have to throw at it in future; (2) playing media on a 40" UHD smart TV (display extended between that and main monitor); (3) some gaming via Steam - it needs to be at least as capable as my current machine and preferably better (though I'm not too interested in the latest AAA releases or anything, mostly play older or indie titles)]

3. Do you need a copy of Windows? [No - will be using my own Windows 7 disc and will want to dual boot with an Ubuntu variant]

4. Can you use any parts from an old computer? [No.]

5. Do you need a monitor? [No]

5b. If no, what resolution is your current monitor and do you plan to upgrade in the near future? [1920x1080 @60Hz Acer S231HL] [No plans to upgrade] [Desktop extended to JVC LT-40C860 Smart TV]

6. Do you need any of these peripherals? [Wifi required, whether built into MB (as with current machine) or as a separate component, as I'm dependent on it at the moment.]

7. Are you willing to try overclocking? [Not really interested now but would like it to be a future option. No dealbreaker though.]

8. How can you pay? [I would prefer to pay via an NI Sterling Visa debit card if possible; my preference would be for scan.co.uk as I've bought parts from them before and found them good, but open to other ideas. Really want to use up that Sterling though!]

9. When are you purchasing? [As soon as possible]

10. If you need help building it, where are you based? [Dublin city centre but no help required (I hope)]

Other bits and bobs:

a) No particular preference for Intel over AMD - unless I should?

b) I'd like an SSD of about 256GB for the OS's and a data HDD of at least 2TB, maybe larger depending on price and reliability.

c) An internal disc drive would be good if there's room - can easily get another external though, rarely use it anyway.

d) I like the SFF of my current (and previous) machines, but I mainly went with those dimensions because I was a tad nomadic at the time. Have found them a right pain to poke around inside, so I'd probably prefer a more spacious case especially as it's my first solo build. Not keen on a full-on tower either though.

e) USB3 ports. Can get another mains powered hub if necessary for external backup drives etc - please let me know if I'd need one for a particular case/PSU.

Hope that wasn't too painful to read through - any suggestions very gratefully received!

Xenoronin

Something like this would be suitable.
I'm not sure on the graphics card choice (look at overclockers.co.uk for some deals) and you could probably put in a better quality Power Supply (you'll be shipped an EU power lead from german sites).
Don't buy the case from Mindfactory as it adds double the shipping for an extra box, buy it from overclockers.co.uk or amazon.co.uk. Also the shipping below isn't correct as it is a flat fee (they put multiple items in one box) of something like 13-18euro.
Don't feel tied to any of the manufacturers or models listed below, do your research and look for reviews.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-7500 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor (€208.73 @ Mindfactory)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-B250M-DS3H Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard (€77.75 @ Mindfactory)
Memory: Crucial Ballistix Sport LT 8GB (1 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 Memory (€63.84 @ Mindfactory)
Storage: Samsung 850 EVO-Series 250GB 2.5" Solid State Drive (€95.94 @ Mindfactory)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive (€51.93 @ Mindfactory)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti 4GB SC GAMING ACX 2.0 Video Card (€168.54 @ Mindfactory)
Case: Fractal Design Core 1100 MicroATX Mini Tower Case (€42.84 @ Mindfactory)
Power Supply: EVGA 500W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply (€58.43 @ Mindfactory)
Total: €768.00
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2017-03-09 11:19 CET+0100

K.O.Kiki

^solid build, I'd drop the GPU to a GTX 1050 though, or spend an extra tenner and get an RX470.

justsomebloke

Although it woun't be as good for gaming I would strongly advise a ryzen build over a an i5 build. Core and thread count will give you much better scope to deal with any potential work load you will get from college. However if you can't stretch to a 1700 you would have to wait a a couple of months longer for the 1600 which should be cheaper

Xenoronin

The workload doesn't really matchup for a ryzen 7 build to be honest. Perhaps the Ryzen 6 lineup would be a good option, but the OP would have to be willing to wait until mid summer to find out.

Boglander

Thanks for the advice! I've not had time to look into all the suggestions properly yet as I'm trying to dig my way out of a coursework backlog (will look more early next week), but I think I'll go with the i5 over the Ryzen - the price difference is just too much and I need to get this fairly soon. The RX470 seems like it might be a better choice of GPU though, so I'd likely go with that, but I'm a bit confused by the variety of RX470 models on offer - what should I be looking out for in choosing between those?

Does anyone puts much stock into the rankings provided by userbenchmark.com? By their reckoning the Intel Core i5 7600K provides better value than the 7500, with roughly 20% more power for 20-30 quid more. That and the RX470 both require more power than Xenoronin's suggestions so I guess I'd need to look at higher wattage power supplies if I went with them tho?

The MB suggested doesn't have wifi so I'd need a card - are they much of a muchness or are there particular ones to go for/avoid? And is there anything else I'd need, like maybe fans for instance (or do they come with the MB)?

One other question - is there a reason that I shouldn't buy from scan.co.uk? I was happy with the service from them before and would like to pay in Sterling, but Xenoronin only suggests amazon and overclockers.co.uk as UK vendors. Does Scan have a poor reputation I'm not aware of or anything?

Thanks again for the help!

Boglander

I went and threw together a selection of parts from Scan based roughly on Xenoronin's suggestions, but changing the MB and RAM (as the suggested ones aren't in stock there), and upping the GPU to a randomly chosen RX470 and the HDD to 2TB. Comes out as about €100 more - mostly because all the above are more expensive parts. A couple of Xenoronin's suggestions are more expensive there too tho, most notably the SSD, so I guess that's why Scan isn't top of anyone's list of vendors?

Can't post link because I'm new so the replacement parts I picked are:

8GB (1x8GB) Corsair DDR4 Vengeance LPX Black, PC4-19200 (2400), Non-ECC Unbuffered, CAS 16-16-16-39, XMP 2.0, 1.2V @£;60.49
2TB Seagate ST2000DM006 BarraCuda, 3.5" HDD, SATA III - 6Gb/s, 7200rpm, 64MB Cache, 9.5ms, NCQ, OEM @£;63.98
4GB Sapphire Radeon RX 470 NITRO, 14nm Polaris, PCIe 3.0, 7000MHz GDDR5, 1140MHz GPU, 1236MHz Boost, 2048 Streams @£;174.98
MSI B250M MORTAR MicroATX Motherboard + Intel Core i5 7500 Quad-Core Processor with Turbo Boost @£;265.13 (bit cheaper bundled like this)

TerrorFirmer

Just an alternative suggestion for you, that would save a lot of money. Don't get me wrong, I understand you want to build a new machine/pass the existing onto the parents.

But going from an i5-661 (dual core, four thread) to an i7-870 (quad core, eight thread) is about €40 and is a massive increase and still very capable of handling the latest games and also still strong for general productivity purposes.

i7-870, 240GB SSD, GTX1050 2GB - €250 and entire new lease of life. The leftover i5-661 and HD5770 together should get you around €40 back, I'd probably hang onto your 80GB SSD as a spare/backup/reuse.

I still have a machine with an i7-870 and it handles stuff like Battlefield 1 perfectly with a decent card, just to give you an example of how well it's held up and what it can offer for very small money.

K.O.Kiki

Boglander wrote: »

I went and threw together a selection of parts from Scan based roughly on Xenoronin's suggestions, but changing the MB and RAM (as the suggested ones aren't in stock there), and upping the GPU to a randomly chosen RX470 and the HDD to 2TB. Comes out as about €100 more - mostly because all the above are more expensive parts. A couple of Xenoronin's suggestions are more expensive there too tho, most notably the SSD, so I guess that's why Scan isn't top of anyone's list of vendors?

Can't post link because I'm new so the replacement parts I picked are:

8GB (1x8GB) Corsair DDR4 Vengeance LPX Black, PC4-19200 (2400), Non-ECC Unbuffered, CAS 16-16-16-39, XMP 2.0, 1.2V @£;60.49
2TB Seagate ST2000DM006 BarraCuda, 3.5" HDD, SATA III - 6Gb/s, 7200rpm, 64MB Cache, 9.5ms, NCQ, OEM @£;63.98
4GB Sapphire Radeon RX 470 NITRO, 14nm Polaris, PCIe 3.0, 7000MHz GDDR5, 1140MHz GPU, 1236MHz Boost, 2048 Streams @£;174.98
MSI B250M MORTAR MicroATX Motherboard + Intel Core i5 7500 Quad-Core Processor with Turbo Boost @£;265.13 (bit cheaper bundled like this)

It's also more expensive as UK prices are going up, due to Brexit.

Buy from Germany IMHO

Boglander

@TerrorFirmer - thanks, but had a quick look around and that CPU doesn't seem to be generally on sale anymore (and the few places that did have it were changing around the 200 mark); did you mean looking for it second-hand? Anyway though, I'm fairly commited to getting a new machine altogether.

@K.O.Kiki - Yeah, I was thinking that was likely it; in fact I checked out the same list of items on overclockers.co.uk and they were about 30 pounds dearer than scan.co.uk. I want to use up the Sterling in that account though (for much the same reason), but would it still be cheaper to buy from Germany and take the conversion cost hit? Also (and this is fairly important) any idea how much longer on average delivery generally takes from Germany over from the UK?

TerrorFirmer

Yes, 2nd hand. CEX sell them for €45 with 2 year warranty (though CPU is incredibly unlikely to fail)

Boglander

@TerrorFirmer - Ok, thats interesting. Thing is though, the PSU is only 300W (which I just replaced about 6 months ago - apparently the case/MB doesn't take any higher) and the store owner when I originally bought the parts thought I was taking a risk in terms of power consumption even getting the 5770, so a better GPU is definitely out. The board only has SATA II as well, so upgrading the SSD would be difficult. Tempted to look into the i7, even if giving it to my parents, but a bit paranoid about the extra 20-30W shortening the MB's life; it's a bit geriatric as it is.

On a completely unrelated note - is there any way to extend the login time on boards.ie? Can't find an option for it and lost a couple messages already by being kicked out when I hit post.

TerrorFirmer

Actually on the contrary, these days you can buy a graphics card that is three times as fast as a HD5770 while consuming half the power. So up grading to say an i7-870 and a GTX1050, you would actually be cutting your power usage by 50w or so.

SSD on sata 2 is also fine, still a massive boost.

The increased TDP of the i7-870 will have no effect on the lifespan of the board. There is literally just 8 watts in the difference compared to the i5-661 With a GTX1050 installed the whole system under heavy load would pull around 180-200w.

smacl

Boglander wrote: »

The Asus Zenbook laptop (Windows10) I'm mostly currently using for college work is great as far as portability goes but is low on storage space and isn't exactly a workhorse.

Just bought a lovely refurb Precision laptop of this ebay seller last month, and very pleased with what I got for my money. May not be what you're after, and 2nd hand comes with its own risks, but something like this would be a pretty solid portable workhorse for your budget with a similar performance to the self build listed.

TerrorFirmer

smacl wrote: »

Just bought a lovely refurb Precision laptop of this ebay seller last month, and very pleased with what I got for my money. May not be what you're after, and 2nd hand comes with its own risks, but something like this would be a pretty solid portable workhorse for your budget with a similar performance to the self build listed.

Ah now in fairness - that's 5 years old+, the graphics card is really slow (and fairly useless for games), and the processor is nowhere near as fast as the one in the build posted!

The PC build posted above would be literally 1000% faster in games and beyond and also a lot faster in crunching tasks. To say they're 'similar' in performance is really misleading.

€750 is a crazy price for that laptop. Drop the ram to 8gb and SSD and the machine is worth about €250 being generous.

smacl

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Ah now in fairness - that's 5 years old+, the graphics card is really slow (and fairly useless for games), and the processor is nowhere near as fast as the one in the build posted!

The PC build posted above would be literally 1000% faster in games and beyond and also a lot faster in crunching tasks. To say they're 'similar' in performance is really misleading.

€750 is a crazy price for that laptop. Drop the ram to 8gb and SSD and the machine is worth about €250 being generous.

The primary stated use isn't games though and the OP listed portability as a plus. To be fair, in terms of performance the i5-7500 ranges from about 28% faster to 75% faster (though not exactly 1000%) which I'd a right to check prior to posting the link. Personally I think €750 is actually a pretty good price for the laptop in question, but that's after having returned a dud new laptop with crap build quality and got something similar instead.

TerrorFirmer

I meant comparing the graphics cards - I said it would be "1000% faster in games and a lot faster in crunching tasks". The 4000M is old and a Quadro, it's not suitable for games, which the OP does want to play and he said so in his original post. The RX470 will run the latest games at 1080p ultra. The Quadro 4000M won't even run the newest games full stop.

Fair enough if it was good value for you at €750 but for a little bit more you'd get a brand new skylake/kabylake laptop with much faster 6th gen i7 quad, much faster DDR4 ram, SSD/HDD, much faster modern graphics card, full warranty, etc.

smacl

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I meant comparing the graphics cards - I said it would be "1000% faster in games and a lot faster in crunching tasks". The 4000M is old and a Quadro, it's not suitable for games, which the OP does want to play and he said so in his original post. The RX470 will run the latest games at 1080p ultra. The Quadro 4000M won't even run the newest games full stop.

Fair enough if it was good value for you at €750 but for a little bit more you'd get a brand new skylake/kabylake laptop with much faster 6th gen i7 quad, much faster DDR4 ram, SSD/HDD, much faster modern graphics card, full warranty, etc.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge on gaming, stuff I play isn't that much more demanding than pacman That said, the OP did say he didn't want to play the latest games either.

What I found personally shopping for laptops by price and spec recently was getting something that looked good on paper, looked fugly in the flesh, and simply didn't work when tried out. Waiting a month for a refund for something that never worked to begin with also irked me, so won't be hurrying back to laptopsdirect.ie Big plus for me on the Dell Precision laptops was build quality and a few things I didn't properly consider before like the advantages of a removable battery. At this stage I'd rate a good refurb from a knowledgeable seller far higher than high spec low cost new unit from a box dropper. Having had more than a few PCs over the decades, for a workhorse, I'd be looking at the PSU as much as the CPU because more often than not, that's the bit that's going to go bang and often take a few other cheap parts with it. YMMV.

Boglander

@smacl - Thanks for your contribution! I'm pretty committed to a replacement desktop though. What I meant about liking the portability of my Zenbook as that it's so light - only 1.2kg. That's important to me as I don't drive, so I'm lugging a fair bit of crap around on my back every day; really wouldn't want to change to anything heavier.

@TerrorFirmer - I saw that the difference between the TDPs of the i5-661 and i7-870 is just 8W, but according to cpuboss.com typical power consumption is 99.55W vs 121W (and the gap between peaks close to thirty). That's very interesting about the GPU though, wasn't aware there'd been that level of refinement in GPU power consumption. I'm going for the full new build option, but the GTX1050 for the old one before I pass it on is tempting, even if primarily to reduce the load on the PSU. In your opinion (I haven't a clue), would there be much performance improvement in just making that change, or would it be bottlenecked too much by the old CPU to be worth the price?

@K.O.Kiki - I've just gone and compared the prices for the same basket of parts I'd created on scan.co.uk (mentioned earlier) with pcpartpicker. The German retailers actually only come out at about €3 cheaper (I think the CPU/MB bundling on Scan helps), but shipping is about €10 less with Scan so it comes out cheaper on the whole, without even taking the Sterling to Euro conversion into account - plus it'll arrive faster!

Boglander

OK, so this is what I've settled on via Scan - it's much the same as I outlined above, but pcpartpicker reckoned the length of the RX 470 could block access to a drive bay in the Fractal Design Core 1100 MicroATX Mini Tower Case, so I've picked a different one (Corsair Carbide 88R) it indicated there were no issues with.

Before I pull the trigger on this tomorrow, just a couple more questions:

1) Do I need to get a CPU cooler? If so, any advice (or suggestions on what to go for from the options here)?

2) Any advice on what to go for in terms of wireless card (or suggestions on what to go for from the options here)?

And, less importantly:

3) I picked the cheapest Sapphire Radeon RX 470, just because my current card is Sapphire and has never caused me any issues. There are cheaper versions on Scan though - any of these seem like a better choice?

4) For some reason, there's very little overlap between the cases on pcpartpicker and on Scan, at the low end at least. I went with the cheapest one that had decent reviews and was on both sites, but there are many cheaper on Scan - does anyone think any of these would be a better option?

Thanks loads for all the helpful advice so far, really hope I can get some direction on the first two questions at least.

K.O.Kiki

Looks good to me.

Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO is the safe/easy choice of budget cooler, not necessary but nice to have.

The only RX470 that's cheaper is a single-fan model, I'd avoid it (dual-fan will be cooler & likely quieter, since single fan would have to run faster to dissipate same heat).

Cases:
Thermaltake H13 & H15 are fine budget cases.
Silverstone Precision PS08B / PS12B / PS09B (same chassis, different exterior) would be a bit tricky for GPU install but otherwise decent.

TerrorFirmer

Boglander wrote: »

@TerrorFirmer - I saw that the difference between the TDPs of the i5-661 and i7-870 is just 8W, but according to cpuboss.com typical power consumption is 99.55W vs 121W (and the gap between peaks close to thirty). That's very interesting about the GPU though, wasn't aware there'd been that level of refinement in GPU power consumption. I'm going for the full new build option, but the GTX1050 for the old one before I pass it on is tempting, even if primarily to reduce the load on the PSU. In your opinion (I haven't a clue), would there be much performance improvement in just making that change, or would it be bottlenecked too much by the old CPU to be worth the price?

The GTX1050 would be bottlenecked by the i5-661 in games, yes, but the i7-870 will itself be bottlenecked by the GTX1050. The i7-870 is still good enough that it would support a relatively higher end card well enough to this day.

If it's simply a matter of power saving something like a cheap GT710 for €25 will give you plenty connectivity options at a fraction of the power draw - it's a 20w card versus the 100+ of the HD5770.

It's not a gaming card though. If there is going to be some odd spells of gaming done on it, you're better off sticking with the HD5770 or switching to a 2nd hand GTX750Ti for about €70 (much less power and significantly better performance) or the new GTX1050 for €130 or whatever.

Boglander

@K.O.Kiki Cheers for all that. I didn't even realise a stock cooler came with the i5-7500 until I started reading up about the EVO! I'm just going to go with that for now as it'll probably do me. I read up about the Thermaltake and Silverstone cases but while the reviews were largely positive, I got the impression things could be a bit tight and difficult to fit with the parts I've chosen, and since it's my first build I'd like to avoid making things too hairy for myself. So I've gone with the previous list, plus a Gigabyte GC-WB867D-I; not the cheapest wifi card going but the signal's not great here so better to be safe, plus it has bluetooth as well. I've gone a fair bit over my desired budget but I think I'll be glad I did in the long-run. Thanks for the help!

@TerrorFirmer Thanks for the info; there 's a couple of CEX places near me so I'll keep an eye out for an GTX750Ti or similar to swap in. My parents won't exactly be taxing it anyway, but I've had the PSU go boom once already (though admittedly I was living 5 degrees above the equator at the time!), so cutting down on the power consumption without losing performance would be really nice.

Boglander

So, pretty much the day I pull the trigger and order my new system, this happens - no update support for Windows 7 on my new Intel CPU!

This is a complete sh*t - I have W10 on my Zenbook, I do not like it, and I don't want it on my new desktop. However, if I'm reading this right, when I go to install W7 on it, I won't be able to update it beyond its initial state, right? And worse still, even if I was willing to bite the bullet and go along with being bullied onto W10, the free update is no longer available so I'd be expected to go out and shell out a hundred or so for it!

I was planning to dual boot with Linux (likely Mint) and gradually transition to using primarily that, but I don't feel prepared to dump Windows altogther just yet - I've never had a primary Linux machine before, just a couple of old laptops I stuck lightweight distros onto to play about with, so I'm bound to have teething problems I don't really have time for, plus I have several Windows-only games in my Steam library. Any advice anyone?

2ndcoming

If you haven't already ordered go for a Skylake build instead. Very little between a 6500 and 7500 anyway really.

If you have ordered maybe you could arrange to change the order accordingly?

TerrorFirmer

Easiest thing is just to go Skylake as above, you won't see any difference in performance. But Win10 is really not bad to use, especially if you install Classic Start it's visually very similar to Win7 and a lot better than Win8, which I loathed.

K.O.Kiki

Boglander wrote: »

So, pretty much the day I pull the trigger and order my new system, this happens - no update support for Windows 7 on my new Intel CPU!

This is a complete sh*t - I have W10 on my Zenbook, I do not like it, and I don't want it on my new desktop. However, if I'm reading this right, when I go to install W7 on it, I won't be able to update it beyond its initial state, right? And worse still, even if I was willing to bite the bullet and go along with being bullied onto W10, the free update is no longer available so I'd be expected to go out and shell out a hundred or so for it!

I was planning to dual boot with Linux (likely Mint) and gradually transition to using primarily that, but I don't feel prepared to dump Windows altogther just yet - I've never had a primary Linux machine before, just a couple of old laptops I stuck lightweight distros onto to play about with, so I'm bound to have teething problems I don't really have time for, plus I have several Windows-only games in my Steam library. Any advice anyone?

You can install Windows 10 & never activate it.
Microsoft don't mind, heck my main machine has been unactivated for over a year now.

Boglander

I ordered it late Thursday night and it was despatched within 12 hours - before I found out.

I have W10 on my Zenbook and have Classic Start already on that as I also hate that tile crap - it's not so much the interface that I dislike as the inability to self-select updates, stability issues I've had on my Zenbook (that from what I've read seem to be OS rather than hardware related), etc. All the monitoring is annoying as well - I've had O&O Shut Up 10 installed on it from the word go, but the underhand way they went about trying to get 10 on my 7 machine doesn't inspire confidence that they're not willing to try to sneak unwanted and unannounced 'features' on in the future.

There's just no way around it then? The fecking cheek of them gets my back up - there's no good reason (other than commercial) for them to bar Windows 7 from any machine its able to run on. I guess this will inspire me to get to grips with Linux as primary machine that much quicker, but I still want to be able to run my older non-Linux games!

Boglander

Just a quick update:

It turns out that many people have great trouble trying to install W7 on newer hardware. Luckily the MSI B250M MORTAR board I went with has a Windows 7 compatability mode in the BIOS; I still had to integrate Intel USB3 drivers into the W7 iso before I could get past the initial screens, but it installed without too much hassle after that.

Getting it updated wasn't too hard either - I just had to hide the March rollup updates (kb4012215 and kb4012218), as many users with Kaby Lake CPUs reported installing these disabled the functionality of WUpdate. No knowing what the future holds there, but I don't let updates download automatically so I should be fine.

All the same the situation is not ideal (and I've not had time to really test if everything is working as well as it should), so much as I genuinely appreciate all the advice and help I received here in selecting the parts for my new build, I hope in future if someone specifically states in Q3 that they intend to run W7 on their system that board members take this into account in recommending parts. I know the obvious rejoinder is 'do your own research', but I did plenty; OS compatability just wasn't something I thought to check as it's never really been an issue before this latest MS stunt, nor did I come across it by accident until after I'd made the purchase.

Also, board members might want to consider scan.co.uk when recommending places to buy parts; the price difference between it and European sites was very small in my case, especially when delivery cost is taken into account, and delivery speed and reliability was great. I've been very happy with their service (and value) on both occasions I've bought from them and don't really understand why they get little to no mention on here.

dunworth1

Boglander wrote: »

There's just no way around it then? The fecking cheek of them gets my back up - there's no good reason (other than commercial) for them to bar Windows 7 from any machine its able to run on. I guess this will inspire me to get to grips with Linux as primary machine that much quicker, but I still want to be able to run my older non-Linux games!

have a read
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2016/01/15/windows-10-embracing-silicon-innovation/#1dwrJaU0gURBJ5H4.97

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/windows-7-wont-work-intels-current-next-gen-cpus/

Boglander

dunworth1 wrote: »

have a read
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2016/01/15/windows-10-embracing-silicon-innovation/#1dwrJaU0gURBJ5H4.97

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/windows-7-wont-work-intels-current-next-gen-cpus/

I didn't read anything in those advertorials that contradict my assertion, unless one genuinely believes that Microsoft care more about its users' security than their bottom line. And there's really nothing concrete about where this increased security comes from, just repeated assertions that its there; smells very much like fear-mongering to me. I doubt W7 would suddenly become less secure to careful users, if it were not deliberately made so by lack of support.

The fact is that the current generation of CPUs are entirely backwards compatible with the earlier iterations that W7 is capable of running on - it's still x86 architecture and the driver model is much the same between both versions of the OS. The only issue is that some features of the new chips cannot be supported by W7, but I've yet to come across mention of any that I'd care about, and certainly none that outweigh the annoyances of W10 I've mentioned above, not to mention the irritation MS's strong-arm tactics cause in me.