Advice on Ultra Low Loss cable distance for Antenna

Piddar

Hello.

Apologies if this is posted elsewhere, I have seen a few threads on help with antennae, but not this specifically.

Long story short, I had Imagine Broadband up to my house yesterday, new high site, couldn't get ANY signal at all (Jury is out on how hard they tried), anyway, my only fallback is now Mobile Broadband using Three with a B315 Router.

Having walked my site, I can get 7.5mbps at the top of the field (some 70 metres away from the house) and to one edge of the house (some 25-30 metres away) I can get 3.5 using a speed test on a mobile device.

No signal close to the house.

Got in touch with a guy off ebay selling omni directional antennas and he said that Ultra Low Loss max length is 20 metres ?

I guess I have 2 questions;

1. Does anyone know if the B315 router will be better signal-wise than a normal mobile phone? (may help if it is!)

2. IS 20 meters an absolute length, or is it possible the signal degrades but is still manageable?

My thinking is, if the Antenna boosts the signal UP From the 3.5mbps, Im still happier than on my Eircom 0.8mbps currently even if i hit 3 mbps regularly.

Thanks for reading.

P.

givecredit

I guess I have 2 questions;

1. Does anyone know if the B315 router will be better signal-wise than a normal mobile phone? (may help if it is!)

2. IS 20 meters an absolute length, or is it possible the signal degrades but is still manageable?



P.[/quote]
B315 way better signal wise. Try without antenna first. I've mine in Attic to boost signal. I had 7mbps in kitchen, 40mbps in attic.

iwantbroadband

It's highly likely that 20m length of cable will almost completely negate any gains by an antenna. Try this calculator if you can find the relevant cable, but depending on signal frequency, a 20m run could reduce the signal by as much as 90%. General rule of thumb is to keep the antenna coax as short as possible.

As givecredit suggests, try it in your attic first. It's amazing what a difference it can make. In my setup, there is no 3G or 4G signal in the ground floor of our house, and patchy in the attic. We use a single 11dBi directional antenna mounted on an aerial pole with 5m low loss coax into the router (Huawei B593). The antenna is not quite line of sight to the mast, and can pickup 1-2 bars of 4G and approx 16MB speeds.

You sound like you might be in a similar situation with being in a valley, and signals going over your head? This tool might help you plan antenna pointing if you know where the mast is: http://www.solwise.co.uk/wireless-elevationtool.html

The image attached shows how we're not quite LOS with the mast but it still works.

my3cents

I always try and make the data connection at the antenna rather than get the signal and run that back.

A Power over Ethernet (PoE) connection should get you power for your device out in the field 70m from the house so all you need to do is run good quality Cat5e cable (use pure copper not copper coated) a PoE kit and get some form of waterproof enclosure for your router.

I find the enclosures you can get for keeping electrical sockets and plugs dry outside for Christmas lights really handy but a bit expensive for what they are.

The only problem is that I have no idea how much power a B315 needs and it may be more than can be supplied with PoE, you'll have to look up the various standards and see if there is one that will provide enough power at the required voltage.

editorsean

One workaround for a long cable run would be to get an outdoor router, such as this, that works like Imagine's CPE/antenna. This ZyXEL unit supports both LTE bands 3 & 20 the Irish mobile networks use.

As the router and directional antenna are combined in the one unit, this completely eliminates cable signal loss. Power is provided by a PoE injector, which can generally be up to 50 metres from the outdoor unit. The SIM card goes in the outdoor unit.

If you go with cable, make sure it is 50 Ohm cable and rated for up to about 2GHz. 75 Ohm cable such as satellite cable will result in an impedance mismatch at each end, which will cause signal reflections. Although all cables attenuate the signal, a good well insulated cable minimise unwanted noise making it to the core, maintaining the signal to noise ratio that reaches the router's radio.

After a certain length, the signal strength will fall to the point where the useful signal falls below the noise floor of the router's radio. This will vary depending on the signal strength reaching the outdoor antenna, so in a very fringe area, a few metres may be enough to attenuate the signal below the noise-floor of the router's radio circuitry.

Piddar

Hello all.

Sincere apologies for the lack of reply - ive been out of comms for a while.

Update is, I found I also have signal from the roof of my house (approx 10mbps min ) - thanks to your advice here (i dont have an attic as such as its a dormer), so externally mounted on chimney and thus short cable is OK, I just need a recommendation for an LTE directional antenna that works on THREE Ireland with a B315 router ?

If anyone is able to help ? I've been chatting to a guy off eBay but he seems particular about networks (EE UK etc)...


Thanks so much again for your help.

P.

editorsean

As some 4G antennas are band specific. I suggest going for an LTE LOG antenna pair, which covers both LTE bands 3 (1800MHz) and 20 (800MHz).

A band specific antenna will only work if Three is using that band in your area. For example, an LTE band 3 only antenna will not work if there is only LTE on band 20 within the range limit of any Three cell tower.

Piddar

editorsean wrote: »

As some 4G antennas are band specific. I suggest going for an LTE LOG antenna pair, which covers both LTE bands 3 (1800MHz) and 20 (800MHz).

A band specific antenna will only work if Three is using that band in your area. For example, an LTE band 3 only antenna will not work if there is only LTE on band 20 within the range limit of any Three cell tower.

Thanks for the reply.

Most antennas i see on eBay are multi band? Would you have an idea if a Yagi style one would work ? - one on there for £27+P&P..

Others on there for 80£..

Can't post links as new user..

editorsean

Yagi antennas are generally band specific, similar with the panel antennas. If you know what band you're connecting on, band specific antennas can give significantly higher gain than a wideband (multi-band) antenna. A multi-band Yagi is generally very long and contains a number of small elements and a number of long elements. A Log antenna is triangular shape.

One thing to watch out for with antennas is check the frequency ranges, i.e. that it covers both 800MHz and 1800MHz. Some so called LTE or "4G ready" antennas are actually TV antennas and will not pick up LTE at all! These are called 4G ready as they intentionally filter out the 800-900MHz range to reduce interference on digital TV from LTE transmissions. This is an example to avoid.

If you have or can get a lend of a Samsung phone or iPhone and can to get it on to Three 4G at your place, dial *#0011# (or *3001#12345#* on an iPhone) and check what band # it mentions. On other phones, you can try the app LTE Discovery to see if it mentions the band #, although generally this only works with rooted phones. Band 3 requires a 1800MHz antenna and band 20 requires an 800MHz antenna. If you are in a fairly rural location or a small village, it is very likely you are picking up Three on the 800MHz band.

The following is one suggestion which has the vertical and horizontal elements in the one antenna, probably the one you spotted based on the price:

www.ebay.ie/itm/Antenna-LTE-2x-5m-Cable-ATK-LOG-LTE800-LTE1800-UMTS-3G-HSDPA-4G-/401184573151

If you are able to confirm you pick up LTE band 20 (800MHz), I would suggest going for the following antenna. Although more expensive, it's a lot more sensitive than the above antenna based on my own my testing of these two.

www.ebay.ie/itm/Mobile-Broadband-Antenna-Huawei-Aerial-MIMO-LTE-4G-B593-D-link-DWR-923-SMA-800-/281688863005

Piddar

Thanks.

Just checked at work to see what it would look like dialing *#0011# and i can see 20 on 4g so will check at home.

At home, the 4G is sporadic, you have to be in a certain place to go from H+ to 4G, but I can get it - Think I'm going with the more expensive of the two.. just need to be clear about where to sit it.. and the direction of the mast..

Thanks again for your help!

p.

Piddar

Sooo I got an external LTE MIMO antenna and had it wired to the top-most point on the back chimney (yes, tried everywhere -this was the best spot for speed but i'm apallingly bad at heights) and it was a case of "wooohooo! D'oh, woooohoo, Doh " :mad::mad: When it works I get 15mbps minimum. Then I get nothing - no network at all.. (red lights)...

So I'm wondering, maybe the intermittent issues are weather related? Or could it be contention even ? (new to mobile BB) any ideas / options?

Right now it seems stable (but it is nearly 10pm) but its doing my nut in with it dropping in and out?

Thanks.

P.

editorsean

Try swapping the two cables on your router. This could improve the stability if the uplink was carried over the weaker of the two polarities.

If the stability remains poor, see if you can set your router to 4G only. If you cannot find this setting in the web interface, get the Huawei HiLink App for your phone (assuming it's a Huawei brand router). In the HiLink App go into the settings menu, then Network, Network carrier, Preferred network and select '4G only'.

The antenna aiming is also quite sensitive in the vertical direction, so if you only tried aiming it left/right, I suggest increasing the inline a few degrees above plumb to see if the performance improves.

Piddar

editorsean wrote: »

Try swapping the two cables on your router. This could improve the stability if the uplink was carried over the weaker of the two polarities.

If the stability remains poor, see if you can set your router to 4G only. If you cannot find this setting in the web interface, get the Huawei HiLink App for your phone (assuming it's a Huawei brand router). In the HiLink App go into the settings menu, then Network, Network carrier, Preferred network and select '4G only'.

The antenna aiming is also quite sensitive in the vertical direction, so if you only tried aiming it left/right, I suggest increasing the inline a few degrees above plumb to see if the performance improves.

Great tips.

Thank you for posting! I'll give each of those a go. I'm not convinced over the 4G only however as I think the coverage fluctuates. Certainly last night I was getting 3 bars on the router after 10pm, today - same position, not changed, I'm down to 1 bar and the weather is significantly better?

I'm happy enough with 5mbps (currently sat working from home - a cherished opportunity not afforded me with .7mps Eircom fixed line), but maybe I also need to relocate the router away from any large metal objects or electrical devices? Its currently located near the TV, Sky box and next to a wood burner..

Thanks again for the help.

P.

Piddar

Piddar wrote: »

Great tips.

Thank you for posting! I'll give each of those a go. I'm not convinced over the 4G only however as I think the coverage fluctuates. Certainly last night I was getting 3 bars on the router after 10pm, today - same position, not changed, I'm down to 1 bar and the weather is significantly better?

I'm happy enough with 5mbps (currently sat working from home - a cherished opportunity not afforded me with .7mps Eircom fixed line), but maybe I also need to relocate the router away from any large metal objects or electrical devices? Its currently located near the TV, Sky box and next to a wood burner..

Thanks again for the help.

P.

Looks like I cracked it thanks to your posts here! I tried swapping cables - no joy. Tried forcing 4G - no joy. Tried forcing 3G and I get between 15mbps and 32mbps contsant 3 bars now. A happy Boy! I was set to return it to the shop...

Thanks again.

P.

editorsean

That's great and also impressive speed for 3G. :cool:

As the speed is considerably faster than what you mentioned you were getting on 4G, it looks like the 4G mast you were picking up had high contention.

I also notice this on the Meteor network in Ballybofey in recent months. If I run a speed test around 9am when I arrive at work, I typically get around 45Mbps. By about 5pm, this often drops to around 20Mbps and occasionally below 10Mbps. When I've my phone set to WCDMA (3G) mode, the speed is consistently between 20 and 28Mbps throughout the day.

If the antenna you purchased is the panel antenna I suggested, this means the 3G you're picking up is on the 900MHz band.

Piddar

editorsean wrote: »

That's great and also impressive speed for 3G. :cool:

As the speed is considerably faster than what you mentioned you were getting on 4G, it looks like the 4G mast you were picking up had high contention.

I also notice this on the Meteor network in Ballybofey in recent months. If I run a speed test around 9am when I arrive at work, I typically get around 45Mbps. By about 5pm, this often drops to around 20Mbps and occasionally below 10Mbps. When I've my phone set to WCDMA (3G) mode, the speed is consistently between 20 and 28Mbps throughout the day.

If the antenna you purchased is the panel antenna I suggested, this means the 3G you're picking up is on the 900MHz band.

it was the panel antenna. It did surprise me when I checked the router and saw 3G over 4 G at that speed, but he,y whatever G it is, 32mbps this morning = a very happy boy over .7mbps on fixed line.. I'll give it another day before I can the Eircom line... 250gb a month on Three at that speed for €69 per month beats crappy .7mbps (capped at 30gb per month) and a land line I rarely use..

Thanks so much for the extended advice. Really appreciated.

P.

blue412

Hi I know this is resurrecting a bit of a zombie, but the thread there has actually been really useful. I have been working on getting decent internet in a rural area. I have a speed of 7 to 10mbs with Eir at one window using a Huawei B315 modem. I have speed tested using my phone and am getting similar speeds.

I also have 2mbs coming from Lightnet using POE, and connecting to a Zyxel modem. I am trying to combine the two internets!

So, I have connected a Huawei E5577C to my Zyxel modem mobile port and the POE is connected to the modem via a WAN port. Everything seems to be working fine thankfully and the two internets combine. BUT…. but the speed on the Huawei E5577C falls to <2mbs (bad compared to Huawei B315) in the same window. If I hang the E5577C out the window it improves significantly back up to a useful level. So, I am considering investing in an antennae to connect to the E5577C. There are some mini ports an antenna on the E5577C.

But I’m not really sure what the story with antennae is. I don't know what frequency i am receiving on. I checked what Eir broadcast at, and I think that it is 800 and 1800MHz. Sometimes I have E, sometimes H and sometimes 3g (never 4g). I have 3g fairly consistently at the window. Any suggestions for choosing an antennae would be very much appreciated!

ED E

B3 800 and B20 1800 are 4G allocations. Its 3G you'd want to target.

900Mhz, 2100Mhz are the 3G bands.

blue412

Okay, so would something like this be useful: https://www.irishwireless.net/3g-4g-antennas/omni-a0121 or this https://www.irishwireless.net/3g-4g-antennas/xpol-a0001

I am actually really really close to an mast (about 600m) but I am a kind of hollow on the hill and I don't have a direct line of sight. I am just wary because so many have bought external antenna and have had problems and lost speed rather than gained it. I read somewhere that I might need cross polarised antenna if I can't see the mast, but I'm just quite hazy on it.

I got a reconditioned E5577C for €20 so I'm not tied to that if there was a better solution!