WALES V IRELAND, 10 March 2017, Millennium Stadium, 8.05pm

Erik Shin

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not a hope Henderson comes in for Toner.

Especially after the great Incident of February 2017 for which he'll never be forgiven.

Also not a hope Heaslip is going anywhere, where do people get this stuff from.

I think the argument can be made for CJ at 8, POM at 6 and SOB at 7 is a better balanced back line...But, that's all that would happen... an argument

irishbucsfan

Erik Shin wrote: »

I think the argument can be made for CJ at 8, POM at 6 and SOB at 7 is a better balanced back line...But, that's all that would happen... an argument

In what way is it better balanced?

Zzippy

The only way we would have a better balanced backline is by having a proper groundhog 7, which this team is missing IMO. SOB, CJ, POM are really 6's, CJ can play 8 and Heaslip is an 8 only. Swapping CJ for Heaslip and POM for CJ does absolutely nothing for the balance of the backrow.

Moflojo

Zzippy wrote: »

The only way we would have a better balanced backline is by having a proper groundhog 7, which this team is missing IMO. SOB, CJ, POM are really 6's, CJ can play 8 and Heaslip is an 8 only. Swapping CJ for Heaslip and POM for CJ does absolutely nothing for the balance of the backrow.

I agree, and for that reason I think that VdFlier should be the first name on the teamsheet in the backrow, when fit. Let CJ and Heaslip battle it out for 8, and O'Brien and O'Mahony fight for 6.

shootermacg

Zzippy wrote: »

The only way we would have a better balanced backline is by having a proper groundhog 7, which this team is missing IMO. SOB, CJ, POM are really 6's, CJ can play 8 and Heaslip is an 8 only. Swapping CJ for Heaslip and POM for CJ does absolutely nothing for the balance of the backrow.

I think you'll find that PoM, CJ and SoB are all groundhogs!

leakyboots

Not sure I agree Zzippy. POM is arguably the best on the ground of the 3 current starters and has the added lineout attacking/defensive qualities - he's Munster's go-to man in the lineout in the ERC - collected more than twice as many as D. Ryan. He won't carry like CJ/SOB but he brings other things to the party.

CJ does what SOB used do except better - carry hard and punch holes - probably the best backrow player in Europe at the moment, I don't see how you drop him to be honest. There's a case to leave SOB out (he's not in great form currently either). Maybe to the bench? He can effectively cover the whole backrow anyway. Heaslip was described as 'anonymous' the last day by the Welsh press. I don't think he's had a great tournament either to be honest.

For me, there's an argument that CJ/POM/Heaslip or POM/SOB/CJ with a.n.other on bench for impact. Why not let Conan off the leash from the bench? JvdF wasn't in great form either before injury so not sure he would have been the answer, maybe he'd have grown into though, who knows. Maybe TOD, he's been in good form recently after a poor autumn. Not that form seems to matter when it comes to selection anyway as we see regularly. Leavy has been tearing up trees for Leinster, turning over ball for fun.

I look at England and they drop J. Joseph after poor form, he comes back in raring to go and tears it up against Scotland. Maybe some players need a kick in the arse to prove they've to fight to hang onto their jersey.

Either way, what's clear is the current setup isn't working.

irishbucsfan

I personally think POM, Stander and Heaslip are all 3 of the best back rows in Europe right now. I think its a shame they can't seem to get all 3 on the pitch. I appreciate SOB is a cracking player and also one of our best when he's fit and firing, but I don't think he is currently.

.ak

leakyboots wrote: »

You disagree that there are predominantly more Leinster users on here than others? Take a look at the provincial thread number/views.

Arguing on thread with mod warnings is not tolerated.

You're around long enough and well earned - take a break for a couple of days.

This goes for anyone else - we've had a pretty balanced discussion to date without reverting to provincial pettiness.

Running Balance

Seen on sky after ireland/wales the highlights of ireland south africa and noticed the try saving tackle by payne on peterson which henshaw came to assist on.

Just highlighted how poor a tackler kearney is. He must have been put on his ass a couple of times against wales - though in fairness he caught some ball..

Zzippy

shootermacg wrote: »

I think you'll find that PoM, CJ and SoB are all groundhogs!

Nah, they're not really. They can do a job, but they don't get enough turnovers or spoil enough ruck ball to be considered really good opensides. Even SOB. Our problem is a glut of players in the 6/8 mould, hard-tackling ball carriers who are hard to leave out, and no true jackaler at 7. Maybe VDF will be that player. As it is, we're shoehorning good blindsides into playing 7, and we don't have a balanced backrow. POM in would address some lineout issues, but not the lack of a true 7.

shootermacg

Zzippy wrote: »

Nah, they're not really. They can do a job, but they don't get enough turnovers or spoil enough ruck ball to be considered really good opensides. Even SOB. Our problem is a glut of players in the 6/8 mould, hard-tackling ball carriers who are hard to leave out, and no true jackaler at 7. Maybe VDF will be that player. As it is, we're shoehorning good blindsides into playing 7, and we don't have a balanced backrow. POM in would address some lineout issues, but not the lack of a true 7.

VdF is no groundhog either, himself and ToD are loosies because pf their link play and speed. The only true groundhog we have in Ireland is Leavy. CJ, PoM and SoB are all great on the deck, although PoM is lacking a bit of pace after the injury, so he's no seven.

As far as carrying ball PoM is a destructive ball carrier, how quickly you guys forget PoM hitting the line ^ ^.

You need a bit of this in your game:

CMOTDibbler

Zzippy wrote: »

Nah, they're not really. They can do a job, but they don't get enough turnovers or spoil enough ruck ball to be considered really good opensides. Even SOB. Our problem is a glut of players in the 6/8 mould, hard-tackling ball carriers who are hard to leave out, and no true jackaler at 7. Maybe VDF will be that player. As it is, we're shoehorning good blindsides into playing 7, and we don't have a balanced backrow. POM in would address some lineout issues, but not the lack of a true 7.

Rugby nowadays doesn't bank on one player being able to turn over ball. You get freaks like Bastareaud, Itoje, Pocock, Hooper or even BOD in his day able to turn ball over. It's the nature of the game and multi phase play that your seven is never going to be able to be that effective.

Clear outs are getting too good as well. The best setup is to have two at the same time over the ball so that neither can be shifted.

irishbucsfan

Zzippy wrote: »

Nah, they're not really. They can do a job, but they don't get enough turnovers or spoil enough ruck ball to be considered really good opensides. Even SOB. Our problem is a glut of players in the 6/8 mould, hard-tackling ball carriers who are hard to leave out, and no true jackaler at 7. Maybe VDF will be that player. As it is, we're shoehorning good blindsides into playing 7, and we don't have a balanced backrow. POM in would address some lineout issues, but not the lack of a true 7.

All three actually get a bunch of turnovers and spoil a tonne of ruck ball (comparatively with other Irish players). Far more than JVDF actually.

People get so obsessed over the number on the backs of back row forwards. I fail to understand why really. Is Pocock unable to put in that work when he's wearing 8 on his back? Nope. Is Warburton when he's wearing 6? Nope. If the mythical number 7 had such an influence the Saffers would all be screwed given how they line out.

FellasFellas

irishbucsfan wrote: »

All three actually get a bunch of turnovers and spoil a tonne of ruck ball (comparatively with other Irish players). Far more than JVDF actually.

People get so obsessed over the number on the backs of back row forwards. I fail to understand why really. Is Pocock unable to put in that work when he's wearing 8 on his back? Nope. Is Warburton when he's wearing 6? Nope. If the mythical number 7 had such an influence the Saffers would all be screwed given how they line out.

100% dispute this. Playing 7 is completely different to playing 6 or 8; the roles and amount of extra breakdowns and tackles they make from playing openside is noticeable. You're just jaded by the fact we haven't had an out and out 7 since Slattery. JVDF should start against England imo due to his defensive and tackle stats, with POM on the bench.

CMOTDibbler

FellasFellas wrote: »

100% dispute this. Playing 7 is completely different to playing 6 or 8; the roles and amount of extra breakdowns and tackles they make from playing openside is noticeable. You're just jaded by the fact we haven't had an out and out 7 since Slattery. JVDF should start against England imo due to his defensive and tackle stats, with POM on the bench.

JvdF is injured.

penybont exile

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Stander or POM as openside, I'm not pushed either way. I'd prefer to keep Heaslip and Stander in their usual spots though as they're our best forwards, so I'd have POM at openside.

That is what I would do too ...

irishbucsfan

FellasFellas wrote: »

100% dispute this. Playing 7 is completely different to playing 6 or 8; the roles and amount of extra breakdowns and tackles they make from playing openside is noticeable. You're just jaded by the fact we haven't had an out and out 7 since Slattery. JVDF should start against England imo due to his defensive and tackle stats, with POM on the bench.

Firstly, no they're not involved in all these extra breakdowns and tackles.

And no, I'm not jaded by the fact we supposedly haven't had a 7 since Slattery. I'm not just basing it on the obvious evidence across the entire world of professional rugby, but from almost a lifetime of first hand experience as well.

nice_guy80

How does a player become a specialist 7?
Is there specialist training for it? drills? training games?
Or is it just a case of getting around the park and annoying the opposition as much as possible?

scott1974

nice_guy80 wrote: »

How does a player become a specialist 7?
Is there specialist training for it? drills? training games?
Or is it just a case of getting around the park and annoying the opposition as much as possible?

You need to go to the Richie McCaw finishing school, after four years you get a degree.
I think it's part funded by the provinces.

BBDBB

scott1974 wrote: »

You need to go to the Richie McCaw finishing school, after four years you get a degree.
I think it's part funded by the provinces.

even in the photo, he's on the wrong feckin side

Webbs

Thought the comments on Against the Head were right in that the obsession with not giving away penalties may have sanitised the Irish approach to challenging the breakdown. No matter how good a groundhog you are then you have a little NZ accented voice in your head going 'do not give away a penalty' so you dont compete in the same way as you would for your club, a tiny split second of hesitation and the chance is gone as far as the breakdown is concerned.

Chatting over weekend others had said exactly the same as Duffys comments about Marmion, he did fine when he came on but didnt really play his own game with sniping runs, quick taps etc. Are the players afraid to express themselves?

sydthebeat

Webbs wrote: »

Chatting over weekend others had said exactly the same as Duffys comments about Marmion, he did fine when he came on but didnt really play his own game with sniping runs, quick taps etc. Are the players afraid to express themselves?

well the fact murray has no problem quick tapping or sniping is tangible evidence that no, the players are not afraid to express themselves.

perhaps the it was the fact marmion was playing a higher level of rugby with less time, space and opportunites is the reason he couldnt play his usual game??

CMOTDibbler

Webbs wrote: »

Thought the comments on Against the Head were right in that the obsession with not giving away penalties may have sanitised the Irish approach to challenging the breakdown. No matter how good a groundhog you are then you have a little NZ accented voice in your head going 'do not give away a penalty' so you dont compete in the same way as you would for your club, a tiny split second of hesitation and the chance is gone as far as the breakdown is concerned.

They forgot the Barnes factor. Wayne does silent night impressions at the breakdown, even when players are screaming for guidance. SOB was shouting 'tackle only' and Wayne was completely silent until when he caught him out one time and said "get out" and then blew the whistle for the penalty. Some refs are instructive and shout "hands away" or "it's a ruck" etc. but Wayne has his own way of doing it, so we're ultra careful when he's on the whistle. Wales gave away ten penalties, but we didn't punish them for it.

Webbs wrote: »

Chatting over weekend others had said exactly the same as Duffys comments about Marmion, he did fine when he came on but didnt really play his own game with sniping runs, quick taps etc. Are the players afraid to express themselves?

You don't get those opportunities in an international match. Or very seldom.

Webbs

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

They forgot the Barnes factor. Wayne does silent night impressions at the breakdown, even when players are screaming for guidance. SOB was shouting 'tackle only' and Wayne was completely silent until when he caught him out one time and said "get out" and then blew the whistle for the penalty. Some refs are instructive and shout "hands away" or "it's a ruck" etc. but Wayne has his own way of doing it, so we're ultra careful when he's on the whistle. Wales gave away ten penalties, but we didn't punish them for it.

You don't get those opportunities in an international match. Or very seldom.

Wales gave away ten penalties and won, maybe if Ireland had given away more penalties and got a measure of the refereeing then they may have won.
Its not just the last match is it though. Ireland have been wearing their lack of penalties as a badge of pride. Maybe they need to start playing on the edge a bit more.

I disagree with you about Marmion, Gareth Davies is a similar player at SH for Wales and you see him sniping and upping tempo as thats his style

Webbs

sydthebeat wrote: »

well the fact murray has no problem quick tapping or sniping is tangible evidence that no, the players are not afraid to express themselves.

perhaps the it was the fact marmion was playing a higher level of rugby with less time, space and opportunites is the reason he couldnt play his usual game??

Maybe I'm wrong but as far as I can tell Murray very rarely snipes or takes quick taps for Ireland. When he occasionally does its usually very effective, but is not something he is known for.

sydthebeat

Webbs wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong but as far as I can tell Murray very rarely snipes or takes quick taps for Ireland. When he occasionally does its usually very effective, but is not something he is known for.

in the opposition 22 hes excellent at both the quick tap and the snipe... just look at a highlight reel of the tries hes scored.

further out it, given a risk / reward scenario and the fact we're very much a set piece team, why would he take a quick tap pen if we can kick to the corner.

my point is, the opportunities you get for 9 sniping or quick tapping are very much diminished at international level compared to pro 12.

Put on top of that the fact that connacht play a very, very different style of rugby than ireland. Its not that the players are afraid to "express" themselves, its the fact they get less opportunities to do it.

CMOTDibbler

Webbs wrote: »

Wales gave away ten penalties and won, maybe if Ireland had given away more penalties and got a measure of the refereeing then they may have won.
Its not just the last match is it though. Ireland have been wearing their lack of penalties as a badge of pride. Maybe they need to start playing on the edge a bit more.

I disagree with you about Marmion, Gareth Davies is a similar player at SH for Wales and you see him sniping and upping tempo as thats his style

Penalties gift territory or points to the opposition. Personally I get really annoyed when we give away stupid penalties. Robbie Henshaw's penalty cost us a try for example. SOB getting caught offside cost us territory and attacking position. Jonny Sexton's penalty cost him ten minutes in the bin and went a long way to costing us the match.

Wales didn't win because they gave up more penalties than us. One doesn't follow from the other. If we'd kicked the penalties they gave us in the first half, the scoreline may well have been rosier at half time. That annoys me a hell of a lot more than the possibility that we're not close enough to the edge at the breakdown.

irishbucsfan

Webbs wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong but as far as I can tell Murray very rarely snipes or takes quick taps for Ireland. When he occasionally does its usually very effective, but is not something he is known for.

I think that is a fair assessment. It wouldn't be something you'd expect to happen when he's at the base of the ruck in the same way as Marmion.

Not sure if Marmion would be limited from doing it, but certainly a possibility that he wouldn't trust the support to be there in this environment because he's not as used to it. Who knows, I guess.

jacothelad

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

To be fair, there's nobody more stylish than Rob.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Firstly, no they're not involved in all these extra breakdowns and tackles.

And no, I'm not jaded by the fact we supposedly haven't had a 7 since Slattery. I'm not just basing it on the obvious evidence across the entire world of professional rugby, but from almost a lifetime of first hand experience as well.

Nigel Carr.......

Buer

clsmooth

jacothelad wrote: »

Nigel Carr.......

Keith Gleeson?

EDIT probably should have refreshed the page before replying to see the giant photo of the man himself!