Duathlon National Champs

pgibbo

It's on this weekend. Hopefully the weather will hold.

Many on here racing? I'm hoping to get out for a look. Best of luck to all who are.

P.

pgibbo

Results are here. I heard that drafting at the front was pretty bad and team tactics were in use

BMC had a great FB post last night

joey100

Seen his post alright, even still he managed to catch and ride through them. Not any different than any other race really with the drafting so!

viperlogic

A train of about 8 passed me. I worked hard to get past them again and gain some ground but in doing so got a cramp and had to back off to nurse it, same train passed again. Should of just let them go.

Not once I saw a TI motorbike.

68 lost souls

I see TI have redacted their report on the race. Yesterday it mentioned the "chasing pack" of riders as if to say they were acting as a peleton to chase down BMC and today it doesnt say that any more... hmmmmm

Moonfruit

Lots of team work yesterday. A few weeks ago in Naas two guys from the same cycle club caught up with me and passed after sitting behind me for 5mins. They shamefully worked together without care. luckily I managed to pass them out on the run that day.

The same two did exactly the same yesterday, and finished high up in the standings, unfortunately I wasn't able to close them down this time. it is infuriating but I certainly believe from the amount of complaints I heard yesterday that my situation is far from unique.

El Director

So nothing has changed I see

peter kern

pgibbo wrote: »

Results are here. I heard that drafting at the front was pretty bad and team tactics were in use

BMC had a great FB post last night

how bad was it really
i mean the winner smashed the first run with some crazy pace changes rather than running boring ( my respect )
there was certainly some pack in the middle of the race but then winner dropped that pack again at the end. and he would have been cought buy that pack maybe 20-25 min in the bike and then after bryan past the pack was broken too


Not saying that he is wrong ( he is certaily not ) but did he complain that the runs where shorter than they should have been ?
he could have won that race by pacing a bit better at the end of the bike as he can certainly run faster than 3.50 min
k pace of the bike

I have seen in naas how Kieran mixes up the run portion to break people( and he did the same y day ) and i find that as refreshing as bryans bike performace

iam too lazy no to calculate what the proportion of a 10 40 5
k races should be with a 37 k bike but someting something like 9,2 and 4.6 maybe so i gusess he saved a good chunk her since he going some 20 or so sec a k slower . so i guess he saved 44 or so sec there .

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

how bad was it really
i mean the winner smashed the first run with some crazy pace changes rather than running boring ( my respect )
there was certainly some pack in the middle of the race but then winner dropped that pack again at the end. and he would have been cought buy that pack maybe 20-25 min in the bike and then after bryan past the pack was broken too


Not saying that he is wrong ( he is certaily not ) but did he complain that the runs where shorter than they should have been ?
he could have won that race by pacing a bit better at the end of the bike as he can certainly run faster than 3.50 min
k pace of the bike

I have seen in naas how Kieran mixes up the run portion to break people( and he did the same y day ) and i find that as refreshing as bryans bike performace

iam too lazy no to calculate what the proportion of a 10 40 5
k races should be with a 37 k bike but someting something like 9,2 and 4.6 maybe so i gusess he saved a good chunk her since he going some 20 or so sec a k slower . so i guess he saved 44 or so sec there .

Rich Brady always advocated erratic pacing on the first leg of a duathlon for very similar reasons

zico10

joey100 wrote: »

Seen his post alright, even still he managed to catch and ride through them. Not any different than any other race really with the drafting so!

This is only half true. If indeed people ahead of him were drafting, they would have been harder to pass. Far easier to pick off and pass individuals than groups of cyclists. I wasn't at the race, so I don't know what actually happened, but anybody riding in a pack would have saved far more energy for the second run than somebody riding alone. I could understand his frustration.

joey100

I know what your saying and I wasn't commenting on the drafting more that even when drafting he caught them, more about how strong he is on the bike than saying he shouldn't give out cos he caught them anyway.

Moonfruit

On a positive note the event was well hosted by Predator Tri club and the marshals were well informed and above all courteous. The atmosphere among the competitors was good and everyone seemed to be having a good time. It was good to have a turnout of the country's top Triathletes at a Duathlon event with pro's and amateurs battling for the top places. T-shirts were pretty cool, results were out promptly and there were plenty of pics of competitors on-line the following day. And the sun was shining.

rodneyr1981

Moonfruit wrote: »

On a positive note the event was well hosted by Predator Tri club and the marshals were well informed and above all courteous. The atmosphere among the competitors was good and everyone seemed to be having a good time. It was good to have a turnout of the country's top Triathletes at a Duathlon event with pro's and amateurs battling for the top places. T-shirts were pretty cool, results were out promptly and there were plenty of pics of competitors on-line the following day. And the sun was shining.

Second that. Was well run event and ran smoothly. Good course, ok some rough sections on bike but in general was sound. Nice run routes. Great to have so many talented athletes racing.
Didn't see the drafting as they were well up the road on me however was confirmed by a friend who was out on the course watching. Shame as this lads should know better.

68 lost souls

A fairly comprehensive statement from BMC here

https://www.facebook.com/bryan.mccrystal/posts/803009013181100:0

Looks like it was an excellent job of hosting and the pictures of the day look great, it's a pity about the drafting but we have this conversation race season every year and I think with the Cat1 guys being draft legal for NS they are even more likely to be drafting in these races. And a drafting penalty would have changed the podium order

Still won't beat the drafting I saw at Caroline Kearney where a cyclist not in the race was working for a middle of the pack cyclist from about 5km in until 2km from the end of the bike leg but that's a whole nother kettle of fish.

Sounds like the run leg was well fought and it's interesting to hear the tactics employed there.

I think we as a culture are speaking out a bit more, becoming less of a "say nothing" breed, so I'll probably voice an opinion here that wouldve been best suited for the race we had at the weekend.

I finished 2nd at the national duathlon champs that were held at the weekend, always having high hopes of winning. Did I feel it possible? Maybe. Where I am at present is good. I don't like to be too good at this time of year so races like these for me are challenging. With that nowhere near my mind when I line up I want the best performance I can give. And let's mention the elephant in the room, I like it to be fair. You see I'm slightly annoyed at two or three things from the race.

First and primarily is at myself. I was in the lead after 20'ish minutes of the bike. With over a two minute deficit to make up from the first run I thought I was in charge at this point. I wasn't though and I didn't close the race out in the final run when I should have but certain factors played a part in that. I did drop my energy bottle on transition exit and I needed it. My mouth was like Gandhi's flip flop after 20 mins. It killed my second run and it was very poor by my standards but amateur mistakes lead to amateur results. I've only myself to blame.

Second- a race always has its rules. My strength is the bike, I'm an ok runner that can bike up to and go past guys. My issue was that the leaders bent the rules and benefited from riding together. This is where im speaking out and referring to the first sentence. If you understand bike racing you will know the advantages from riding in a group are extraordinary even if it is for a short period of time. I could see this group on a number of stages in the distance as I approached. As I passed it became clear to me that 10 meters was not be adhered to. Frustration about this leads me to my third point

Third - From my recollection there were two bike marshals. One lead bike(that sees nothing) and the other policing proceedings. I had the police man for the majority of my time riding up to the front Runners. I pass riders at a significant pace so the reason that bike hung with me is puzzling. When I arrived at the front pack so did my police man. I asked him in an angered tone would he not sort it out. His reply was something of "you let me deal with it". I did apologize after for my tone. I nearly got a penalty for it!.
All points are relevant to my performance and result, the most important one being my own personal performance. I like to sort things out myself and not rely on other factors contributing. This is what vexes me the most,not towards the athletes or race committee. Pointing fingers isnt my style and handbags at dawn certainly isnt. For the first time I had a camera on the rear of my bike. I could post few daming images but it was only as I passed. If the camera was on the front then that would've been a different story.(I asked permission before the race could I use it) Normally I pass on making reference to anything but this time I feel the Federation needs to up their game with these type of events.

What needs to change-
Sort out the policing and you won't have to worry about athletes bending the rules. Dont blame them,blame yourselves. For a race of its magnitude there should be at least 6 marshal motorbikes policing. One lead bike, one with front group male, one front group female and the rest freelancing. The race also needs to be on closed roads. One race a year is not impossible. If cycling events can do it then Triathlon Ireland can do it. The roads were tight and one of my friends got a slap of a bumper as the resident pulled out from his house. There is a national title at stake and the race doesnt just stop by looking after the front guys. We need to treat the mid to back pack with the same respect.

I spoke with the bike marshal after the race. I was going to make a complaint but he said whats the point. I referred to him not seeing what i saw and he did but he said ''its only a snapshot in time and when they hear my engine they spread out'', I said well why didnt you hang around then. He said '' do you think you guys are the only ones in the race''. Fair point but isnt the most important result the title? So maybe with a lack of bike marshals that guy should have sacrificed the ones behind. Referring to the drafting he also said '' you know the story, sure your probably at it yourself''. I replied '' Who can I draft off if i ride up at such a rate ''

What do I feel about the other athletes-
A friend of mine used to recite Ice-T's saying to me when he'd get one over me ''Dont hate the player hate the game''. In football players dive, players play on when it goes out for a throw in or corner and will swear blind to the ref that it didn't. This race is no different. Fair play to them if they got an advantages by weaknesses in the organisation( not the hosting club, I think they did a great job). Athletes of course need to take responsibility but the buck stops with the ''Game'' . I've nothing but admiration for these young guys. I wish I had the opportunity at that age in the same sport as they do.
Congratulations to all.
BMC

Fazz

peter kern wrote: »

how bad was it really
i mean the winner smashed the first run with some crazy pace changes rather than running boring ( my respect )
there was certainly some pack in the middle of the race but then winner dropped that pack again at the end. and he would have been cought buy that pack maybe 20-25 min in the bike and then after bryan past the pack was broken too


Not saying that he is wrong ( he is certaily not ) but did he complain that the runs where shorter than they should have been ?
he could have won that race by pacing a bit better at the end of the bike as he can certainly run faster than 3.50 min
k pace of the bike

I have seen in naas how Kieran mixes up the run portion to break people( and he did the same y day ) and i find that as refreshing as bryans bike performace

iam too lazy no to calculate what the proportion of a 10 40 5
k races should be with a 37 k bike but someting something like 9,2 and 4.6 maybe so i gusess he saved a good chunk her since he going some 20 or so sec a k slower . so i guess he saved 44 or so sec there .

The drafting would have far outweighed any difference in run distance imo.

Looking at the splits, it appears and sounds like the 2 fast runners were close together for most of the bike. They drafted each other in naas a few weeks back treating it like a training race and sounds the same here. Looks like Rory caught kieran and con too and then con dropped off.
The advantage of drafting is massive.

The issue is partly the fact they are cheating, and mostly the lack of enforcement from TI as usual.
At least manage the top bunch but then maybe they want their development team squad to do well etc etc...

These youngsters have unreal run speed it's such a shame to see and hear them drafting in non drafting races.
Takes away from their credibility and image imo.

The worst part is they are fast enough to not do it.

zico10

tunney wrote: »

Rich Brady always advocated erratic pacing on the first leg of a duathlon for very similar reasons

There are a few caveats I'd add to that.

joey100

McCrystal has put up a picture from his back camera and seems to show a bit of drafting alright, picture only captures a moment but he had it recording the whole time so I'd say he is confident enough that it was happening and more than likely has the proof to back it up.

The hypocrisy of people posting on his post is mad though, I can count at least one lad that was done for drafting in a race I was in (I only know because it directly affected my result) that is on there giving out about it. He was caught by motorbike marshalls, course marshalls and spectators. Gave out about TI after and the abuse he gave them meant he had to be taken aside and told to apologise or it would be a DQ, he's on the facebook post now giving out about all drafters and how it's cheating and something he would never do.

peter kern

good on him re camera i think thats a good thing to do .

at the same time unless he had approval by the race referee to use it he could be in trouble for using a camera.

68 lost souls

peter kern wrote: »

good on him re camera i think thats a good thing to do .

at the same time unless he had approval by the race referee to use it he could be in trouble for using a camera.

In his statement that I posted yesterday he said that he had permission to use it.

peter kern

the problem is its hard to judge if you dont see it all the time.

what is legal and what is iligal.

for instance you say in naas 2 guys were drafting. when i saw them there were close but legal and the person that saw them on the way out in that race did not mention they were drafting.
so in this case i believe the accounts of that person more than yours
( unless you were with them for significant parts of the race)

there is a difference if people work legally toghter and illigally
( and of course like in soccer if there is no good referee this is very hard to control ) and think the very latest after 70.3 clearwater worlds we understadn what happens when race courses are flat .
10 years later we make the same mistakes .....



as say I think bryan has certainly a fair point ( so has lional sanders ) but part of it is also the sport develops in such way that you have to be at the front in every diciplne .

lional sanders took the approach to improve his swimming
in a race with a small pro field he is very hard to beat but at the top races with a flat bike he realiced this is not going to work.

I really dont know the answer to all this
the rules are bad ( if its not 20 meter drafting distance its no good - yet for many races 20 meter is not possible given the numbrs of entrants ) , the refereeing is bad ( but then who wants to do it ) , and ethics are bad


and as zico points out doing crazy pace changes on the run is not neccesarily the smartest thing to do when one of your main competitors and current irish dutahtlon champ is 90 sec behind you . this has a huge cost too . like wise there was also some good speed changes on the bike.
I have a decent idea how the winner did the race and i have respect how he won that race . very agressive in some parts defensive at other parts


was it fair ??? some people say it was not fair that barcelona got to the next round last week.
arsene wenger when he loses always blames the refeery never his coaching.

Sometimes with this stuff you get different opinions and unfortunatley triathlon has opened the door very very widely for that .

for instance when bryan passed the group one of the lads did get a penalty . so you assume there was a referee .

and i think the best athlete of the field did not even get on the podium.

what iam a bit tired of is after every race we discuss the same thing.
yet we have seen what challenge did in some races with the 20 m draft zone certainly does work at the pointy end.

Fazz wrote: »

The drafting would have far outweighed any difference in run distance imo.

Looking at the splits, it appears and sounds like the 2 fast runners were close together for most of the bike. They drafted each other in naas a few weeks back treating it like a training race and sounds the same here. Looks like Rory caught kieran and con too and then con dropped off.
The advantage of drafting is massive.

The issue is partly the fact they are cheating, and mostly the lack of enforcement from TI as usual.
At least manage the top bunch but then maybe they want their development team squad to do well etc etc...

These youngsters have unreal run speed it's such a shame to see and hear them drafting in non drafting races.
Takes away from their credibility and image imo.

The worst part is they are fast enough to not do it.

peter kern

coming back to this the draft marshelling was pretty much non existent again last weekend. that was a bit dissapoiniting given it was a nat champ race .
At the same time it was pretty much a very fair race. and quite spreed out. i guess from what i see the first bike pack entered t2 around 15th place but until then most people were either on their own or with one other guy.

the 10 k did break up thinks much more thanl last year and i guess this year the field had a slightly different distribution of athletes strenght and weakness profiles and was much more broken up becasue of that as well.
I would have guessed that last year field had been stronger but having looked at the results its actually quite close and if anything the female field was slightly stronger and the male field marginally weaker

from what i hear the 10 k was a bit long and the 5 k quite a bit long
and the bike 2 k short ( i guess somebody wanted to make sure that BMC would not win lol )