5/3/1

Dtp1979

Starting very soon on this. I've all my % worked out for the main lifts. Should I mix up accessory excersises or keep them all working the one area per day or does it really matter that much. I was thinking of keeping them something similar to Hanleys want a simple program. As in main lift, then maybe 3 or 4 accessories after that. Any thoughts?

Alf Veedersane

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Starting very soon on this. I've all my % worked out for the main lifts. Should I mix up accessory excersises or keep them all working the one area per day or does it really matter that much. I was thinking of keeping them something similar to Hanleys want a simple program. As in main lift, then maybe 3 or 4 accessories after that. Any thoughts?

What needs working on?

Work on that.

Look to improve the weak points.

Dtp1979

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

What needs working on?

Work on that.

Look to improve the weak points.

I've plenty of weak points no doubt. But would I be better off for instance doing bench day, then working on chest/triceps for the accessories, as opposed to chest/back. It's hard to identify weakness in my lifts too so I'm trying cover as much as I can

Brian?

What are your numbers on your main lifts and your bodyweight?

As with all powerlifting programs, don't over think the accessory work. It's primarily about the big 3.

Do at least 3x upper body pulling as pushing in your accessory work.

Alf Veedersane

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I've plenty of weak points no doubt. But would I be better off for instance doing bench day, then working on chest/triceps for the accessories, as opposed to chest/back. It's hard to identify weakness in my lifts too so I'm trying cover as much as I can

I appreciate its hard and I'm still a relative novice so bit don't think about it as about a single day when you get to work on weaknesses.

If you have 2 exercises per day to work on accessories, then you can switch them around if needs be. But with bench you should look at shoulders and triceps or chest. It depends on where your weaknesses are

Brian?

What Jim Wendler has to say about accessory work:

Assistance Work
Along with the bench press, squat, shoulder press, and deadlift, 5/3/1 includes assistance exercises to build muscle, prevent injury, and create a balanced physique. My favorites are strength-training staples like chin-ups, dips, lunges, and back extensions.

But don't go ape-**** with supplemental exercises. They should complement the training, not detract from it. You must have a very strong reason for doing an exercise. If you don't, scrap it and move on.

There are a number of ways to do assistance work: Boring But Big (my version of a hypertrophy program), The Triumvirate (shown below), and my favorite, I'm Not Doing Jack ****, named for those times when you only have time to hit the PR in your key lift and leave.

People laugh and call me lazy, while they twit around in their three-hour workout making zero progress. Sometimes, instead of what you do in the weight room, it's what you don't do that will lead to success.

Dtp1979

Brian? wrote: »

What are your numbers on your main lifts and your bodyweight?

As with all powerlifting programs, don't over think the accessory work. It's primarily about the big 3.

Do at least 3x upper body pulling as pushing in your accessory work.

Around 85kg. Deadlift I've only started doing. That's at 170 1RM. Squat 120. Bench 85. Ohp 55

Brian?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I appreciate its hard and I'm still a relative novice so bit don't think about it as about a single day when you get to work on weaknesses.

If you have 2 exercises per day to work on accessories, then you can switch them around if needs be. But with bench you should look at shoulders and triceps or chest. It depends on where your weaknesses are

When it comes to bench my assistance would almost entirely be focused on shoulder health and upper back strength for a novice lifter. In simple terms benching heavy often will improve your triceps, chest and front delt strength. A stronger upper back keeps your shoulders healthy and helps create a stable base to bench off.

Brian?

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Around 85kg. Deadlift I've only started doing. That's at 170 1RM. Squat 120. Bench 85. Ohp 55

Cool. I forgot you had silly numbers for a novice .

How are you planning your entire week?

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

When it comes to bench my assistance would almost entirely be focused on shoulder health and upper back strength for a novice lifter. In simple terms benching heavy often will improve your triceps, chest and front delt strength. A stronger upper back keeps your shoulders healthy and helps create a stable base to bench off.

Tbh, I keep shoulder health separate. I so band pull aparts a lot at home. Definitely worth doing as part of a routine though.

My shoulders are my weak link in my bench. It's why I miss off the chest when I miss.

I don't disagree that upper back is important but probably more fundamental issues to be addressed before that before your bench.

Brian?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Brian? wrote: »

When it comes to bench my assistance would almost entirely be focused on shoulder health and upper back strength for a novice lifter. In simple terms benching heavy often will improve your triceps, chest and front delt strength. A stronger upper back keeps your shoulders healthy and helps create a stable base to bench off.

Tbh, I keep shoulder health separate. I so band pull aparts a lot at home. Definitely worth doing as part of a routine though.

That's fine, but that's the minimum I'd do for shoulder health. A strong upper back is great for shoulder health. Especially for office workers who sit all day. There is a direct causal link between a stronger upper back and a stronger bench.

My shoulders are my weak link in my bench. It's why I miss off the chest when I miss.

When you say shoulders do you mean front delts? This can also be caused by a weak upper back. I'd have to see you fail a bench to really know.

I don't disagree that upper back is important but probably more fundamental issues to be addressed before that before your bench.

I disagree. I've never met someone with an over developed upper back. I've met many people with shoulders rounded forward by too much pushing and who's bench is severely limited by it.

Dtp1979

Brian? wrote: »

Cool. I forgot you had silly numbers for a novice .

How are you planning your entire week?

As far as main lifts I hope to get the 4 done within 7 days. Squat, bench, deadlift, ohp. No accessories plan yet.

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

I disagree. I've never met someone with an over developed upper back. I've met many people with shoulders rounded forward by too much pushing and who's bench is severely limited by it.

I'm basing it off the assumption that there's a very minimum 1:1 as it is and that upper back strength is being addressed in a program. I don't disagree about having a strong base either.

I just found that my front delts were my limiting factor at a certain point. Working those has brought my bench up.

But so has technique. I guess it's hard to pin it one one thing without seeing the OP's bench

Dtp1979

As for shoulder health, I'd be doing a lot of shoulder work on ohp day. I always try add in a couple of upper back excersises on both bench and ohp day

Dtp1979

Would it be any harm to add in a back day to the program and concentrate solely on lift specific muscles on their days? Hope that made sense.

Brian?

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Would it be any harm to add in a back day to the program and concentrate solely on lift specific muscles on their days? Hope that made sense.

I feel the waters have been muddied here, mainly by me! Don't add a back day. You're doing 5/3/1 to get stronger at the big lifts. Fit your assistance work in on those days. See what works for you.

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

I feel the waters have been muddied here, mainly by me! Don't add a back day. You're doing 5/3/1 to get stronger at the big lifts. Fit your assistance work in on those days. See what works for you.

100% (except the first line - we just came at it from what worked for us). Could be a couple of things so try certain exercises for 3-4 weeks and see how that goes and see if you think something else might work.

But like the explanation Jim Wendler gave above, you have to be able to justify why you're doing it, ie why does it complement your bench.

Dtp1979

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

100% (except the first line - we just came at it from what worked for us). Could be a couple of things so try certain exercises for 3-4 weeks and see how that goes and see if you think something else might work.

But like the explanation Jim Wendler gave above, you have to be able to justify why you're doing it, ie why does it complement your bench.

Taking bench as an example, then surely any chest/tricep work would benefit it?

Brian?

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

100% (except the first line - we just came at it from what worked for us). Could be a couple of things so try certain exercises for 3-4 weeks and see how that goes and see if you think something else might work.

But like the explanation Jim Wendler gave above, you have to be able to justify why you're doing it, ie why does it complement your bench.

Taking bench as an example, then surely any chest/tricep work would benefit it?

Or it could destroy your recovery

Dtp1979

Brian? wrote: »

Or it could destroy your recovery

well I don't plan on exhausting the muscle.

How would this look
Bench day
Main lift
Chin ups 4x8
Dips 4x8
Db fly
Shrugs
Skull crusher

Squat day
Main lift
Walking lunges 4x8
Legpress 4x8
Calf raise
Leg extension

Ohp
Lat pulldown
Seated ohp
Db row
Plate raise
Facepulls

Deadlift
RDL
Hip thrust
Leg curl
Cable rows

Is that too much assistance work or is it too unbalanced?

Alf Veedersane

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Taking bench as an example, then surely any chest/tricep work would benefit it?

It would it it doesn't compromise the next session. And it will help but how much it helps depends on what your limiting factor is in your bench.

Dtp1979

Dtp1979 wrote: »

well I don't plan on exhausting the muscle.

How would this look
Bench day
Main lift
Chin ups 4x8
Dips 4x8
Db fly
Shrugs
Skull crusher

Squat day
Main lift
Walking lunges 4x8
Legpress 4x8
Calf raise
Leg extension

Ohp
Lat pulldown
Seated ohp
Db row
Plate raise
Facepulls

Deadlift
RDL
Hip thrust
Leg curl
Cable rows

Is that too much assistance work or is it too unbalanced?

Bump

Alf Veedersane

It doesn't look too much but the proof is in the pudding. Are you adding in many exercises?

Which ones and why? Are there better options? What sets/reps have you in mind?

Dtp1979

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

It doesn't look too much but the proof is in the pudding. Are you adding in many exercises?

Which ones and why? Are there better options? What sets/reps have you in mind?

The main lifts will be strictly from the 5/3/1 program.
I was thinking of 4x8 heavy for b and c
Maybe higher reps for d and e.
Not sure what you mean by adding in excersises.
I mentioned those listed basically so I could get some back work added in as I want to keep it balanced.
Are there better options? Yes probably. Not to sound like a smart arse, but that's why I'm asking.

Alf Veedersane

Dtp1979 wrote: »

The main lifts will be strictly from the 5/3/1 program.
I was thinking of 4x8 heavy for b and c
Maybe higher reps for d and e.
Not sure what you mean by adding in excersises.
I mentioned those listed basically so I could get some back work added in as I want to keep it balanced.
Are there better options? Yes probably. Not to sound like a smart arse, but that's why I'm asking.

Without seeing you lift I can't say if the exercises you picked are best for you. I don't know 531 off top of my head so I didn't know if you were adding exercises to the prescribed ones, that's all.

It's more just to think about why you've selected ones you have. Why cable rows and not barbell rows? What will calf raises do for your squat? They're not questions for you to answer to me but to yourself. Exercises should be selected based on what they will do for your main lift...on how they complement your main lift.

Again, without seeing you lift it's difficult to know what would be best for you.

But you can still do what you've listed above and make progress. But it's an iterative process. Record your lifts, see where things break down and choose exercises to address the weaknesses that are limiting.

Dtp1979

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Without seeing you lift I can't say if the exercises you picked are best for you. I don't know 531 off top of my head so I didn't know if you were adding exercises to the prescribed ones, that's all.

It's more just to think about why you've selected ones you have. Why cable rows and not barbell rows? What will calf raises do for your squat? They're not questions for you to answer to me but to yourself. Exercises should be selected based on what they will do for your main lift...on how they complement your main lift.

Again, without seeing you lift it's difficult to know what would be best for you.

But you can still do what you've listed above and make progress. But it's an iterative process. Record your lifts, see where things break down and choose exercises to address the weaknesses that are limiting.

True, without coaching and having my lifts examined it's hard to know what my weak points are. I guess I'm just trying to pick excersises that'll cover as much as possible

Alf Veedersane

Record your lifts. Stand your phone against something and record it. You've a much better chance of picking up on something that needs to be addressed

LiamaDelta

Brian? wrote: »

I've met many people with shoulders rounded forward by too much pushing and who's bench is severely limited by it.

What's the solution to this? More pull work and upper back work?

Mr. CooL ICE

LiamaDelta wrote: »

What's the solution to this? More pull work and upper back work?

Pretty much. Regular upper back movements such as rear delt flyes, facepulls for reps help a lot

Dtp1979

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Pretty much. Regular upper back movements such as rear delt flyes, facepulls for reps help a lot

You did 5/3/1 didn't you? How did you find the program?

Brian?

LiamaDelta wrote: »

Brian? wrote: »

I've met many people with shoulders rounded forward by too much pushing and who's bench is severely limited by it.

What's the solution to this? More pull work and upper back work?

That's part of the solution. I'd also recommend static stretching of the pecs and front delts, shoulder mobility warmups and self myfacial release of the pecs and front delts.

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

That's part of the solution. I'd also recommend static stretching of the pecs and front delts, shoulder mobility warmups and self myfacial release of the pecs and front delts.

All of that and work on the serratus anterior too.

LiamaDelta

Brian? wrote: »

That's part of the solution. I'd also recommend static stretching of the pecs and front delts, shoulder mobility warmups and self myfacial release of the pecs and front delts.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

All of that and work on the serratus anterior too.

Cheers lads. I do quite a lot of those, but need to do more. I've become quite front dominant and it does affect my bench considerably. Desk based work is a killer on the posture.

Brian?

LiamaDelta wrote: »

Brian? wrote: »

That's part of the solution. I'd also recommend static stretching of the pecs and front delts, shoulder mobility warmups and self myfacial release of the pecs and front delts.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

All of that and work on the serratus anterior too.

Cheers lads. I do quite a lot of those, but need to do more. I've become quite front dominant and it does affect my bench considerably. Desk based work is a killer on the posture.

I'd say desk work is the number posture killer.

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

I'd say desk work is the number posture killer.

I've been keeping my bands at my desk to try keep things moving. The odd time I kneel at my desk but been looking into a kneeling chair

Brian?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Brian? wrote: »

I'd say desk work is the number posture killer.

I've been keeping my bands at my desk to try keep things moving. The odd time I kneel at my desk but been looking into a kneeling chair

We have adjustable desks that allow you to stand during work. Worth looking into

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

We have adjustable desks that allow you to stand during work. Worth looking into

They had a token one brought into the office. It won't be an issue there for much longer...

But I just try and keep myself moving anyway

LuckyLloyd

I'd always suggest dropping some assistance and replacing with additional mobility work or some conditioning (assuming that aspect isn't being covered separately on different days).

ThunbergsAreGo

I am doing 531 Big But Boring at the moment and must say I am loving it so far!

LiamaDelta

Brian? wrote: »

I'd say desk work is the number posture killer.

Desk and driving which can make up about 40 hours of my week. I work in Health and Safety and I even advise and instruct on posture etc! It's still hard to discipline yourself. Some days I could spend 6 hours in the car, this is a more recent development and I definitely think it's a major factor for me. At least at a desk there's more opportunity to stretch and move.