Metro/Tram Service in Cork City

whisky_galore

Deleted User wrote: »

Europe. Interest rates are so low its practically free cash. Plus they are all for loaning to spend on infrastructure.

Fair enough, no great will to do it by the snouts-in-the-trough brigade.

What's wrong with this country is the level of self-interest and nest-feathering.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

Fair enough, no great will to do it by the snouts-in-the-trough brigade.

What's wrong with this country is the level of self-interest and nest-feathering.

I'd actually argue the problem is the lack of nest-feathering. As they say a committee is a group of people who individually can do nothing but collectively can agree nothing can be done. Thats what we have. Indifference as to the problems and inability to deliver.

two wheels good

I knew about about the old Douglas tram. Well-known photo
But I wasn't aware the tram network was so extensive - Blackpool, Blackrock, Sunday's Well, Tivoli ... map here

"The tramway generating station at Albert Road now houses the National Sculpture Factory and the adjacent tram shed - complete with inspection and service pits (with tram rails still in place) - is also still intact and in use as a commercial premises."

freshpopcorn

I had a dream before that the Luas came to Cork and I got a permanent job of sitting down and calling out what stop was next.

KCAccidental

There are provisions made in the development plan for South Ballincollig for a transport corridor towards Curraheen science park and CIT. This should be extended eastwards as a planned separated BRT line to the City Centre

Mumha

Monorail, it's the way of the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM

LeinsterDub

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

On what basis?

Anyway, when they did the research for this back in 2010, they found that the proposed route (Ballincollig-Mahon) didn't have the critical mass, but it would support BRT. That was at the height of the depression and things have drastically changed. We've had 2 census since then with major increases in population. The docklands development will be pushed on by something like this. It's at least worth another look.

The opinions of Dubs like above, who barely venture outside the M50 are hardly credible. I spend more time in Dublin than Cork these days, but I spend more time in jams in Cork when I'm there. It's absolutely ridiculous and we need to be a little bit less backward in our approach to transport links. Particularly the 'how can it work if it's not Dublin' attitude. The success of developments projects such as the Docklands in Cork will depend on advancements such as this.

Irish government only invest in roads and the more rural the better . Plenty of back waters and byways requiring full motorways apparently .

Irish cities are left with the crumbs

Pitcairn

Cork city and county councils have made a joint submission to the National Planning Framework:
http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web//Cork%2520County%2520Council/Departments/Corporate%2520Affairs/Media%2520Releases?did=521598405


 Rapid Transit Corridor (RTC), running from Ballincollig town to Docklands and Mahon via the City Centre.

 Commuter Rail network with through running at Kent Station between the Mallow and Midleton lines, Interchange between Rail and the RTC and Electrification of the rail network serving Mallow, Monard, Midleton and Cobh.

 A high capacity Core Bus Network serving all of the main corridors within the Cork Metropolitan area including Cork Airport and connecting with inter-city and rural transport services.

 Strategic road infrastructure required to drive balanced regional economic growth and local assets to include the Port at Ringaskiddy.

 Enabling works and measures to realise the development of the City Docks and Tivoli.

 Rapid roll out of high quality broadband across the Region to penetrate all urban and rural areas.

 Continued investment in water management and renewable energy.

snotboogie

Pitcairn wrote: »

Cork city and county councils have made a joint submission to the National Planning Framework:
http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web//Cork%2520County%2520Council/Departments/Corporate%2520Affairs/Media%2520Releases?did=521598405


 Rapid Transit Corridor (RTC), running from Ballincollig town to Docklands and Mahon via the City Centre.

 Commuter Rail network with through running at Kent Station between the Mallow and Midleton lines, Interchange between Rail and the RTC and Electrification of the rail network serving Mallow, Monard, Midleton and Cobh.

 A high capacity Core Bus Network serving all of the main corridors within the Cork Metropolitan area including Cork Airport and connecting with inter-city and rural transport services.

 Strategic road infrastructure required to drive balanced regional economic growth and local assets to include the Port at Ringaskiddy.

 Enabling works and measures to realise the development of the City Docks and Tivoli.

 Rapid roll out of high quality broadband across the Region to penetrate all urban and rural areas.

 Continued investment in water management and renewable energy.

Startling ambition from our local politicians right there; electrify the existing commuter rail, set up a bus corridor, more roads and a bus to the airport all to be completed as soon as 2050.

Rhinohippo

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

On what basis?

Anyway, when they did the research for this back in 2010, they found that the proposed route (Ballincollig-Mahon) didn't have the critical mass, but it would support BRT. That was at the height of the depression and things have drastically changed. We've had 2 census since then with major increases in population. The docklands development will be pushed on by something like this. It's at least worth another look.

The opinions of Dubs like above, who barely venture outside the M50 are hardly credible. I spend more time in Dublin than Cork these days, but I spend more time in jams in Cork when I'm there. It's absolutely ridiculous and we need to be a little bit less backward in our approach to transport links. Particularly the 'how can it work if it's not Dublin' attitude. The success of developments projects such as the Docklands in Cork will depend on advancements such as this.

Totally agree. There are definitely those who believe that Dublin is Ireland and that anything 'beyond the pale' is not even worth considering. I've spent lots of time in traffic jams (in Cork) and it's getting worse. I certainly wouldn't discount this idea of tram/metro service but realistically, it's probably one for the next generation.

cgcsb

Of course a modern tram system is well overdue for a City the size of Cork. The report into the matter found that a BRT system would be of better value because it'd cover more routes with the same money. Of course both should be done.

Both BRT and LRT run into the same problem, road space. Cork City Council is dragging it's heels on allocating road space to the bus service, which is why the bus service is cac.

Patrick St needs to have a car ban, A north south bus corridor would be easy to implement in Cork, the south link, Blackpool road and the quays have plenty of space to implement a continuous quality bus route, but for some reason this simple measure hasn't happened yet.

I think the way forward is to bring in several high quality bus corridors, ruthlessly allocating road space to buses and removing street parking and conflicting traffic movements. Make certain that every bus route has a very fast City-Suburb travel time, no more than 20 mins. Then start laying tram tracks on the busier routes.

SomeFool

Always thought it would be feasible to have the Mallow/Cork/little island commuter line include stops in Blackpool and Blarney, the line passes there anyway.

marno21

Cork needs to adapt the same mindset as the people in Galway.

They are currently getting a 550m motorway through the county, a city bypass costing 600m, a "transport project" to convert the now N6 for public transport use, and they still want light rail and a railway to Tuam.

Meanwhile Cork, which needs projects more than Galway, are shooting down ideas. It's sad how much infrastructure is needed in Cork.

DylanGLC

By 2050??? By then we'll have hover boards. Seriously though, I think this should be a higher priority than the Dublin Underground.

namloc1980

SomeFool wrote: »

Always thought it would be feasible to have the Mallow/Cork/little island commuter line include stops in Blackpool and Blarney, the line passes there anyway.

Blarney maybe but I doubt the short trip through the tunnel from Kent to Blackpool and back would generate many trips.

marno21

namloc1980 wrote: »

Blarney maybe but I doubt the short trip through the tunnel from Kent to Blackpool and back would generate many trips.

It's a start. Imagine how quicker it would be via rail compared to via road. It would also help for people from Mallow/Cobh/Midleton to commute to Blackpool or go shopping.

The fact that there's no station between Mallow and Kent is scandalous.

newacc2015

namloc1980 wrote: »

Have you ever been to Europe? Tram systems are the norm in cities bigger and smaller than Cork across Europe where authorities understand the long term benefits that proper planning and public transport can bring to an urban environment no matter it's size. It's just a severe lack of imagination, planning and foresight in Ireland that means people automatically shoot down suggestions like this with no reasoning other than the usual "but it's too small" and "shur cars and buses are grand".

I have been to cities in Europe and the thing about cities in Europe is people actually live in them. They work, shop and go to College in them too. Outside of Dublin, a city is a place where you work, shop and commute 30-45 mins away as you live in a off one house as you want a 'higher quality of life' etc.

Cities outside of Dublin don't have the density for a tram line. Go to Europe and you will see 5-8 storey is the norm in the entire city. Go to Cork and Galway and 2 storey max is the norm. These cities don't have the density for a Luasline. The deciding factor for a tramline is density, not population size. Cork does not have the density for a tramline.

If Cork, Limerick etc want a Luasline. They need to end this notion, that a city is for working and a one off house in the arsehole of nowhere is for living. Cork should be considered for a luasline, when the council has made meaningful efforts to enough people to live in the centre of the city.

A tramline needs a density of about 6,000 per kilometre to be viable. Cork has about half that. Cork City density is nearly of that of Dublin.

http://www.plan4sustainabletravel.org/key_themes/density/

namloc1980

Pitcairn wrote: »

Cork city and county councils have made a joint submission to the National Planning Framework:
http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web//Cork%2520County%2520Council/Departments/Corporate%2520Affairs/Media%2520Releases?did=521598405

Any link to the actual submission? Can't find it in either council website?

Pitcairn wrote: »

 Rapid Transit Corridor (RTC), running from Ballincollig town to Docklands and Mahon via the City Centre.

The 2010 CATS plan and report on this is gathering dust on the shelves in City Hall. More plans but no action.

Pitcairn wrote: »

 Commuter Rail network with through running at Kent Station between the Mallow and Midleton lines, Interchange between Rail and the RTC and Electrification of the rail network serving Mallow, Monard, Midleton and Cobh.

Through running can happen today, why wait until 2050. Also there was talk of electrifying the line when the Midleton extension was being funded during the boom but instead they went for the cheapest possible rail solution - a single track using existing diesel trains.

Pitcairn wrote: »

 A high capacity Core Bus Network serving all of the main corridors within the Cork Metropolitan area including Cork Airport and connecting with inter-city and rural transport services.

We have to wait 33 years for this??

Pitcairn wrote: »

 Strategic road infrastructure required to drive balanced regional economic growth and local assets to include the Port at Ringaskiddy.

Some roads infrastructure will get the go ahead in the decade but very slow overall.

Pitcairn wrote: »

 Enabling works and measures to realise the development of the City Docks and Tivoli.

Enabling works?

Pitcairn wrote: »

 Rapid roll out of high quality broadband across the Region to penetrate all urban and rural areas.

Happening already and shouldn't take until 2050 to deliver.

Overall those items seem massively underwhelming for a 33 year plan and I see the rural councillors are out in force moaning already that it does nothing for them etc.

We love writing reports and plans in this country, but that's about it.

namloc1980

newacc2015 wrote: »

I have been to cities in Europe and the thing about cities in Europe is people actually live in them. They work, shop and go to College in them too. Outside of Dublin, a city is a place where you work, shop and commute 30-45 mins away as you live in a off one house as you want a 'higher quality of life' etc.

Cities outside of Dublin don't have the density for a tram line. Go to Europe and you will see 5-8 storey is the norm in the entire city. Go to Cork and Galway and 2 storey max is the norm. These cities don't have the density for a Luasline. The deciding factor for a tramline is density, not population size. Cork does not have the density for a tramline.

If Cork, Limerick etc want a Luasline. They need to end this notion, that a city is for working and a one off house in the arsehole of nowhere is for living. Cork should be considered for a luasline, when the council has made meaningful efforts to enough people to live in the centre of the city.

A tramline needs a density of about 6,000 per kilometre to be viable. Cork has about half that. Cork City density is nearly of that of Dublin.

http://www.plan4sustainabletravel.org/key_themes/density/

You're making the classical mistake of saying you must have a certain density of people first before you can get a high capacity public transport system. This is completely backwards but is typical of Ireland and makes little sense. We need to be putting in place the transport infrastructure now, and then plan and build density and employment and residential centres around it. You see the complications they've been having in Dublin trying to retrofit high quality public transport into the city.

j8wk2feszrnpao

namloc1980, you say that "we love writing reports and plans in this country, but that's about it" and "This is completely backwards but is typical of Ireland".
You do know you are part of "we"?

newacc2015 produced some facts and figures for the numbers required to run the project (so that the tax payer isnt propping up a project until it becomes some what self running, if it ever would).

I have no idea if this is required or not. But if we start comparing it to other European systems then we may need to start comparing what Joe Average is paying in tax to fund these type of projects (after mentioning this to a French colleague who informed me of what he pays in tax).

newacc2015

namloc1980 wrote: »

You're making the classical mistake of saying you must have a certain density of people first before you can get a high capacity public transport system. This is completely backwards but is typical of Ireland and makes little sense. We need to be putting in place the transport infrastructure now, and then plan and build density and employment and residential centres around it. You see the complications they've been having in Dublin trying to retrofit high quality public transport into the city.

Build it and they will come... Um, we have heard that plenty of times in Ireland before and it has yet to work.

So you know more about urban planning and public transport than experts in peer reviewed journal? They have explicitly said you need a relatively high density for a tramline to be viable. Do you have any source or evidence that you don't need high density for a luasline other than your opinion?

Are you suggesting flattening Cork City? Because if you have not realised, you will be retrofitting a Luas line through Cork too. Or are you suggesting we left Cork City to rot and build a new line somewhere else "then plan and build density and employment and residential centres around it".

What problems are Dublin having retrofitting public transport other than congestion?

munchkin_utd

Mutant z wrote: »

Would it have sufficent passenger numbers they already have a bus service

sure, people have feet, why do we need busses, they could walk !

snotboogie

newacc2015 wrote: »

namloc1980 wrote: »

You're making the classical mistake of saying you must have a certain density of people first before you can get a high capacity public transport system. This is completely backwards but is typical of Ireland and makes little sense. We need to be putting in place the transport infrastructure now, and then plan and build density and employment and residential centres around it. You see the complications they've been having in Dublin trying to retrofit high quality public transport into the city.

Build it and they will come... Um, we have heard that plenty of times in Ireland before and it has yet to work.

So you know more about urban planning and public transport than experts in peer reviewed journal? They have explicitly said you need a relatively high density for a tramline to be viable. Do you have any source or evidence that you don't need high density for a luasline other than your opinion?

Are you suggesting flattening Cork City? Because if you have not realised, you will be retrofitting a Luas line through Cork too. Or are you suggesting we left Cork City to rot and build a new line somewhere else "then plan and build density and employment and residential centres around it".

What problems are Dublin having retrofitting public transport other than congestion?

Terminal 2?

namloc1980

newacc2015 wrote: »

Build it and they will come... Um, we have heard that plenty of times in Ireland before and it has yet to work.

So you know more about urban planning and public transport than experts in peer reviewed journal? They have explicitly said you need a relatively high density for a tramline to be viable. Do you have any source or evidence that you don't need high density for a luasline other than your opinion?

Are you suggesting flattening Cork City? Because if you have not realised, you will be retrofitting a Luas line through Cork too. Or are you suggesting we left Cork City to rot and build a new line somewhere else "then plan and build density and employment and residential centres around it".

What problems are Dublin having retrofitting public transport other than congestion?

The 2010 feasibility study found a high capacity public transit corridor through the city from East to west was feasible. Initially as a BRT but built in a way that it could be upgraded to LRT. Are you suggesting this is wrong? Remember this study found it feasible in 2010 at the height of the depression and lower levels of economic activity. I'm sure the case today would be even stronger. But you seem to have done your own feasibility study so please do share it. Thanks.

LeinsterDub

newacc2015 wrote: »

Build it and they will come... Um, we have heard that plenty of times in Ireland before and it has yet to work.

Luas, M50 and Dunkettle are all at maximum capacity. They built it and too many came (actually they fudged the design to save a few million).

KCAccidental

newacc2015 wrote: »

Are you suggesting flattening Cork City? Because if you have not realised, you will be retrofitting a Luas line through Cork too. Or are you suggesting we left Cork City to rot and build a new line somewhere else "then plan and build density and employment and residential centres around it".

The proposed corridor for rapid transport (Fully separated BRT would be my preference) has many points for development along it's path. It would really only be the CIT-UCC-CITY portion where land isn't available.

South Ballincollig, Curraheen, Docklands and Mahon Point all have spaces suitable for higher density development.

whisky_galore

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Luas, M50 and Dunkettle are all at maximum capacity. They built it and too many came (actually they fudged the design to save a few million).

Typical Ireland. :rolleyes:

Most things which actually come into being these days seem to be dumbed and watered down Lidl bargain bucket quality versions of the original proposal.

In fact it's a surprise when anything is built without any issues and within budget.

newacc2015

namloc1980 wrote: »

The 2010 feasibility study found a high capacity public transit corridor through the city from East to west was feasible. Initially as a BRT but built in a way that it could be upgraded to LRT. Are you suggesting this is wrong? Remember this study found it feasible in 2010 at the height of the depression and lower levels of economic activity. I'm sure the case today would be even stronger. But you seem to have done your own feasibility study so please do share it. Thanks.

A BRT is not the same as a Luasline! Are you aware of that? The density needed for both are different.

Maybe when you discussing stuff like this you would consider clarifying what you are talking about ie a BRT is not the same as a luasline... But I am somehow supposed to know you were talking about the BRT in the first place

FYI I did cite a document about the feasibility needed for a luasline which to make clear again is not a BRT!

BTW you did not mention what issues were with retrofitting the luas was in Dublin? Or how Cork will be any different... Thanks!

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

You're making the classical mistake of saying you must have a certain density of people first before you can get a high capacity public transport system. This is completely backwards but is typical of Ireland and makes little sense. We need to be putting in place the transport infrastructure now, and then plan and build density and employment and residential centres around it. You see the complications they've been having in Dublin trying to retrofit high quality public transport into the city.

I get the green line Luas to work every day. It turns at a 90 degree angle I think 5 times during the course of my daily run home. A 90 degree angle to a tram means slowing to a crawl before the turn and crawling around the turn which makes the whole journey slow. The reason for these turns is the luas line was built after the buildings.

Ballincollig is the fastest growing town in Europe at the minute. Wait too long to provide it with light rail and there will be no room to install it.

I used to regularly go from Kent station to Ballincollig on a weekday night and go from Ballincollig to Kent on Friday evening. Kent to Ballincollig, wednesday evening 20 minutes by taxi. Ballincollig to kent at rush hour friday often took over an hour. The problem with getting in or out of ballincollig when its busy is that no means of transport gets you out of there. Buses, taxis, cars all end up in the same lane sat behind each other.

If you were going to build a dedicated BRT, with a dedicated BRT road, why not just lay down some tracks?

Cork had 33 trams in 1922 across six lines. If it doesn't have the required density now, how did it have enough density 100 years ago? Answer: density isn't the problem.

People move out of the city for a better life because in the country they know they have no transport possibilities and can plan around them. People despise living in cities where the transport links dont connect, are slow and unreliable and they get charged for having a car in them.

KCAccidental

Deleted User wrote: »

If you were going to build a dedicated BRT, with a dedicated BRT road, why not just lay down some tracks?

It's not so much the track itself, it's the accompanying infrastructure like electrification equipment, land for a fully equipped depot etc.

At least with a dedicated BRT line in place is offsets some of the intial costs of Light rail until a later point when it is feasible to upgrade